G Tolerance

[Grob Queen]

Thank you everyone so far for all your advice - whether its G or nausea i'm feeling, I know its not pleasant and the sooner I can combat it the better! Haven't been flying since my original post so can't tell you if your advice is working...

Bsfish - you are so right about someone else doing turns and feeling the g more...when my instructor shows me a manouvre (like the Emergency break) its worse than when i then do it.

In answer to B2N2's questions; because we are focusing on steep turns, its throughout the trip. After an hour doing steep turns as well as practising turning onto headings (with normal AoB), I am indeed tired! Exhillarated and on top of the world, but tired! Do you think its just the stage of training I am at that I am feeling it worse than a more experienced pilot? Everyone tells me i'll get through this phase...

And I think it was Backpacker's note (sounds a fascinating lecture) about low blood pressure? I know my blood pressure is very good, so maybe that may be having an effect?

[BackPacker]

I still feel wrung out after I've done half an hours aerobatics. So yes, this stuff wears you out even after a lot of exposure. But trust me, you do get used to it. It just requires a few flights to build up your tolerance.

And no, I don't think low/high blood pressure has a direct effect on nausea, unless the situation is so extreme that it causes all sorts of side-effects. But then you'd probably not fit enough to fly in the first place.

What does have the most effect is feeling well. Well fed (but not overfed), well rested, excited (but not apprehensive) about the upcoming flight, well clothed (not too warm) etc.

[B2N2]

After an hour doing steep turns as well as practising turning onto headings (with normal AoB),

You should not be doing steep turns for an hour.
At the most 3-4 then something completely different.
Do you fully understand the theory and aerodynamics behind steep turns?
Try them will all instruments covered up.

[Grob Queen]

Thanks B2N2.

Thats an interesting point about steep turning with teh instruments covered up. My instructor has not suggested this (although another instructor got me to fly in teh cct witout looking at the RPM and getting me to "feel" and hear the changes of teh engine rather than rely on instruments all the time...so I am trying to spend more time looking out the cockpit; as he said, the Instrument rating is a seperate one!) Why is this a good idea? Has anyone else come accross this ? I guess it may be so that I learn to jusdge the AoB, attitude, engine note etc all by feel just as I was told to for cct flying. Am I right?

I guess we don't actually do steep turns for teh full hour because we do work on flying on headings, ordinary turns, the emergency break (last time we flew) and then of course recover back to the airfield practising cx and my instructor is introducing me to different ways to join the cct. So there is a mix there.

Steep turns theory? Well, I sort of understand it about increased weight and load factor hence the 2g; also that one is flying nearer to the stall because of the high aofa of the wings; so therefore full power needs to be used (Lookout, power, roll, attitude, Bank and back pressure - or PRABB is my motto). I nevr was great at Physics so getting my head around this side does strain the grey cells - but am I along the right lines or is there something else which would hel that I need to know?

[BackPacker]

is there something else which would hel that I need to know?

At your skills test you'll be required to either do a 45 or 60 degree banked turn. To nail that angle, simply glance at the artificial horizon while rolling in. There's markings for these angles, but you have to know which ones.

If you find yourself not pitching enough and thus the nose and altitude lowering, don't try to recover by pitching alone. You're too close to the stall for that. Just roll back upright some 10-20 degrees, then pitch up to bring your nose in the proper attitude, then roll back into the turn again.

When rolling into or out of the steep turn, particularly if you're rolling rather fast, don't forget to apply a bit of rudder otherwise your nose will wander all over the place.

I guess that's about it.

Oh, forgot this one: Don't be intimidated. You are the pilot. Fly the aircraft, don't let it fly you. This is one of those maneuvers where a firm grasp of the controls is in order, to let the aircraft do what you want it to do.

[Grob Queen]

Thankyou Backpacker, that is very helpful.

I only found out from my instructor the other day that the markings on the artificial horizon are opposite to what I thought they were...ie 30' AOB is the top notch not the lowest one! So the artificial horizon has become more useful, but I really should use it more, so particular thanks for that tip.

Looking forward to my next flight, I want to put these tips into practise!

[gpn01]

Originally Posted by Grob Queen

Thankyou Backpacker, that is very helpful.

I only found out from my instructor the other day that the markings on the artificial horizon are opposite to what I thought they were...ie 30' AOB is the top notch not the lowest one! So the artificial horizon has become more useful, but I really should use it more, so particular thanks for that tip.

Looking forward to my next flight, I want to put these tips into practise!

Haven't read the entire thread so apols in advance and don't know much about power flying but are students really taught at PPL / VFR level to fly by concentrating on the A/H ?

[foxmoth]

Haven't read the entire thread so apols in advance and don't know much about power flying but are students really taught at PPL / VFR level to fly by concentrating on the A/H ?

No, the A/H is (or at least should be), used purely for a momentary check that the visual picture is correct.

[flybymike]

No, the A/H is (or at least should be), used purely for a momentary check that the visual picture is correct.

I think the visual picture is always correct. The AH not necessarily

[P-MONKE]

Grob:

It's a bit late in the season, but I heartily recommend a trip to your local gliding club on a "good" (thermic) day - 45 degree turns are the norm and 60 is not uncommon, especially in the UK with it's narrow thermals.
BTW, as most gliders don't have an AH, 45 degree bank can be assessed by comparing the horizon to the mounting screws around the instruments which are conveniently at this angle.

I also agree with everyone else about the perception of G: If you're not in control, it feels a heck of a lot more dramatic than if you're flying yourself.

B2N2: "You should not be doing steep turns for an hour." - yes, it can be quite hard work, but this is not particularly uncommon for a scratching flight!

[BackPacker]

Haven't read the entire thread so apols in advance and don't know much about power flying but are students really taught at PPL / VFR level to fly by concentrating on the A/H ?

I only said that you would need to quickly glance at the AH to nail the angles. But once you've got the angle and thus the correct picture, there's no need to use the AH anymore.

Other than this, I think the use of the AH is only taught during the 180 on instruments, which is used in case of an inadvertent entry into cloud.

[Grob Queen]

Extra question - Use of Land Flap on Touch & Goes

Hi everyone,

To add to the discussion of the use and trianing of the AH. Please bear in mind that my instructors are RAF, so I may be being taught slightly differently to you guys in civvy clubs! For instance I am taught the Emergency Break - not sure what Civvy instructors call it, but I know it does not appear in my civvy manuals!

I am taught teh L-A-I workschedule so obviously the AH comes into that. I do indeed use the AH in steep turns to GLANCE at to check teh AoB. At this stage, I do it to get into my head just what is 45' and 60', obviously, as my proficiency improves, I will use it less (as I am doing with the RPM, as I am getting used to teh sound of the engine). For instance, I do not check teh AH when banking 15 or 30'...think my instructor would frown upon that at this stage! I knoow its all about looking outside the aircraft and visual attitude.

I think, as one of you said, covering up teh instruments when I get more advanced would possibly be a good idea, and I will suggest it to my instructor.

P-MONKE - i admit firstly that I don't know a thing about Glider flying, but wouldn't seeing how steep turns are flown in a glider confuse me for powered flight? Having said that of course, we do also have a Gliding Club on Station and I would indeed like to have a go at a glider at some point for the experience!!

Another twist to this, what are your thoughts on the use of full flap to take off when on a touch and go??? I'll see what you think then tell you what I have been told...

[BackPacker]

I think, as one of you said, covering up teh instruments when I get more advanced would possibly be a good idea, and I will suggest it to my instructor.

You'll find you don't have to suggest it to your instructor, but he will nevertheless do so in due time. Although he'll probably be covering up the ASI, ALT and possibly MAP/RPM instead of the AH. After all, judging height and speed is far more difficult than judging where the horizon is on a VFR day...

Another twist to this, what are your thoughts on the use of full flap to take off when on a touch and go???

In most aircraft it's not a good idea as climb performance is pretty marginal with full flaps, and you run the risk of "ballooning" due to the propwash underneath the wings. During the "touch" phase of a T&G you should be configuring the aircraft for take-off as per the POH. That typically (but not always) means no flaps or 1st stage flaps.

Remember that a T&G is a pointless procedure in the normal course of a normal flight. It's only used so you can cram more practice landings and practice take-offs in a single session because you're re-using kinetic energy, and don't have to taxi-back. But a T&G is only an effective training aid if you approach it as three separate stages:
1. Perform a normal landing, in the normal landing configuration (or whatever abnormal/emergency landing configuration you're practicing).
2. During the roll, don't brake any harder than necessary to get below flying speed. Now reconfigure the aircraft for a take-off just as you would do at the hold.
3. Increase the throttle and perform a normal take-off (or whatever type of take-off you would be practicing, ie. short-field).

So if you would not be performing a full-flaps take-off from the hold in your specific aircraft, what would be the point of ending a T&G with a full-flaps take-off?

Having said that, there is another procedure which is not practiced as often as the T&G, and that's the go-around. If the go-around happens rather late in the landing phase, you're almost certainly at full flaps. So you're confronted with an aircraft that is descending, is in high-drag configuration and possibly with carb heat on as well. You've got to arrest the descent and convert it into a climb, reduce the drag without losing control and make sure the engine is developing full power. All in a very short period of time. Arguably a greater challenge than a T&G.

[P-MONKE]

Grob Queen: I don't know much about powered flying either I was just thinking about developing your G tolerance so that you will have a slightly lower workload when practising steep turns in a powered aircraft*. After all, a 60 degree well co-ordinated turn will load you to 2g, whatever aircraft you are flying in.

* And it's fun

[Grob Queen]

P-MONKE - I see what you mean now, thanks!....I can get the g tolerance/overcoming nausea practice in the back seat without the need to concentrate on flying...although from what the others have said (and from my own experience) its better when you are actually flying!

But with the gliders so close (too close when on one of our runways!!) it makes sense to pop over there sometime and ask someone!

[Grob Queen]

Flaps issue

Backpacker - many thanks for your advice. i think is proabbly what most pilots would say. I have indeed been taught to take up land flap and only use t/o flap when on teh t/o part of a T&G - makes perfect sense (and easier as the aircraft is not so sluggish and the angle of climb less shallow...I seem to be virtually skimming the hedge at the end of one of our runways when I t/o using full flap!)

However, since I had a CFI check, he said that it was perfectly ok to take off with full flap on a t&g - it measn there is less work required during the ground roll. However, I ahev never really had any issues with this and when I ahev done three solo T&Gs, I brought land flap up to use just t/o flap and was fine.

Go-Arounds aren't a problem to me....nose up, full power, t/o flap...and I've done a few!!!!

[flybymike]

However, since I had a CFI check, he said that it was perfectly ok to take off with full flap on a t&g - it measn there is less work required during the ground roll. However, I ahev never really had any issues with this and when I ahev done three solo T&Gs, I brought land flap up to use just t/o flap and was fine.

I am surprised if, as a student, you have been allowed to do solo touch and gos, and dumbfounded if a CFI told you to do so using full flap.

[madlandrover]

Nothing wrong with solo T&Gs, staple part of the UK training. Doing them with full flap isn't ideal though, unless on a very long runway...

[flybymike]

Like so much in life, things have changed since my day....

[madlandrover]

No worries. I do insist before sending a solo on seeing/manufacturing at least one landing a little deep into a runway where being able to "go" is in serious doubt, to make sure the assessment of go/nogo is there.