Special VFR at Schiphol - what are my chances?

[mmgreve]

I tried asking in another forum, but hopefully we have more Dutch participants in here :-)

I'm from time to time making the trip from the UK to Denmark VFR, obviously going through the Netherlands. The extend of Class A is pretty extensive (to say the least) which means either a long detour or (as I have done previously) flying very low routing East around Rotterdam and Schiphol.

According to the Dutch AIP, you can get a Special VFR clearance through Schiphol, depending on ATC workload, and I was wondering if anyone have any expriences on getting it. If I plan for it and down get it, I have to either go south around Rotterdam or hope for the DA's to be inactive to the North. In either case, I will be flying a lot lower than I'd prefer.

Any experiences?

[Privatecaptain]

Hi,

Why not just fly below 1500ft (below the TMA) and request a CTR crossing at Schiphol? I have done that several times. Quite interesting and sensational to do. Best routing is from West to East (Zandvoort via overhead to Vinkeveen (reporting point Victor). If you try to cross outside the peak hours, good chance that crossing is approved, and even a compulsory orbit around the tower is possible.

Important: Know the field, the runways and reporting points, by head and have all available on paper. Be quick and fluent in your RT. Limit your information to what is really important for the controllers.
It might help to contact Amsterdam Information 124,300 first, to ask them to coordinate if the CTR crossing is possible. If OK, they will pass you to the right EHAM tower frequency.

Any more information about flying in NL, just send me a PM.

Oscar

[mmgreve]

Thanks for the info Oscar

For a couple of reasons I would prefer to stay higher than that, say at FL 070, which obviously extends the class A airspace significantly.

It is a bit of a hassle having to go down to 1500ft in Holland, not to mention that it's quite inefficient, you also can't do VFR-on-top. I was hoping for a special VFR all the way through the Netherlands basically.

any thoughts?

[BackPacker]

I have never heard anybody getting an SVFR clearance through the (class A) Schiphol TMA. As my fellow countryman said, you've got to duck below it, possibly crossing the Schiphol CTR.

[mmgreve]

Thanks BP.

If I can find the right number, I'll try to give them a call to ask the question.

With all due respect, it seems possibly dangerous to force everyone below 1500 in large parts of the country and through fairly narrow corridors. International airports take up a lot less classified airspace in most other countries.....

[BackPacker]

International airports take up a lot less classified airspace in most other countries.....

Sure? The London TMA and Paris TMA don't seem to be a lot smaller, for starters.

Anyway, if you want to get in touch with LVNL (the Dutch NATS) for a special request, here's your first port of call: Homepage - OPS help desk LVNL

[dublinpilot]

By definition special vfr is not available in a TMA only a CTR. So you'll have to come down to avoid the TMA anyway unless the Dutch have a difference from ICAO.

[silverknapper]

For a couple of reasons I would prefer to stay higher than that, say at FL 070, which obviously extends the class A airspace significantly.

It is a bit of a hassle having to go down to 1500ft in Holland, not to mention that it's quite inefficient, you also can't do VFR-on-top. I was hoping for a special VFR all the way through the Netherlands basically.

If you want it all you're own way I guess you better keep flying around it. a bit of give and take will help your cause a lot.

[mmgreve]

By definition special vfr is not available in a TMA only a CTR

I have tried to research this a bit, as I it's new news to me - the channel island for instance has a pretty extensive Class A that requires SVFR. I have not been able to find the definition you refer to, but someone referenced in an old thread that you could only get SVFR in Class A that extends to surface.

Quote:
International airports take up a lot less classified airspace in most other countries.....
Sure? The London TMA and Paris TMA don't seem to be a lot smaller, for starters.

I was not saying that Heathrow set the gold standard for TMA/CTR, but at least you don't have to stay quite as low. I know that Schiphol is a fairly busy airport (not sure about Rotterdam, though), but I am just surprised about the extend and clasification of the airspace needed. It makes it a bit of a nuisance to fly through the Netherlands (although the service is always excellent) and I was wondering if there was a "trick" the locals use.

I guess I just have to get down low, keep the mixture up, the speed down and a good lookout for masts and fellow flyers.

[bookworm]

I have tried to research this a bit, as I it's new news to me - the channel island for instance has a pretty extensive Class A that requires SVFR.

The Jersey Zone is a control zone (CTR), as it goes down to the surface. It is, admittedly, quite unusual in structure having the smaller Class D zones carved out of it. Where airspace is more conventionally structured, you'll find the CTR is only the lowest layer up to the TMA/CTA floor. Special VFR is permitted only in a CTR, not in a CTA/TMA:

NL AIP ENR 1.2 "ATC may, under certain conditions, authorise special VFR flights within a control zone, when the flight visibility is not less than the value specified in paragraph 2.1.1."

To understand why , you need to appreciate that UK use of "special VFR" is a quirk of the combination of VFR minima and airspace structure. Almost everywhere else:

* class A airspace is not used at low levels, particularly not to the surface; and
* VFR requires 1000 ft vertically from cloud.

Thus if you want to depart a class C or D CTR in visibility less than 5000 m or less than 1000 ft below the cloud base, you must do so special VFR. That is the usual (ICAO) intention.

In the UK, the Heathrow and Jersey Zones are class A through historical anomaly. They should really be class B, in which case VFR rather than SVFR would be the norm. Additionally, the UK difference allowing VFR flights at < 140 KIAS simply clear of cloud in controlled airspace means that SVFR is rarely used for its ICAO-intended purpose.

The Schiphol CTR is class C, so SVFR is probvably not necessary. The TMA/CTA, through which you wish to fly, is class A and therefore not available under VFR or SVFR. Contrast that with Brussels, where clearances through the Class B/C Brussels CTA/TMA at FL80/90/100 are not unusual, and Germany where the highest class of airspace is C.

[dublinpilot]

By definition special vfr is not available in a TMA only a CTR

I have tried to research this a bit, as I it's new news to me - the channel island for instance has a pretty extensive Class A that requires SVFR. I have not been able to find the definition you refer to, but someone referenced in an old thread that you could only get SVFR in Class A that extends to surface.

It comes from an ICAO document so applies in each country unless they file a difference. Since you're interested in the Netherlands you'll find it here in section 2.
Dutch AIP

Note where it says

ATC may, under certain conditions, authorise special VFR flights within a control zone, when the flight visibility is not less than the value specified in paragraph 2.1.1.

A control zone by defination goes to the surface up to a specific altitude/level. As a TMA or CTA is not a control zone, SVFR isn't available in it.

I hope that helps clear it up a bit.

dp

[BackPacker]

The Schiphol CTR is class C, so SVFR is probvably not necessary.

True. Unless the weather falls below VFR minima, in which case you need (and can get) an SVFR clearance through it.

But if the weather is that bad, may I kindly suggest you don't try and cross unless you really know your way around there? ATC will send you all over the place if they have to (for separation - they may be using four runways simultaneously while you cross and need to guarantee separation everywhere) and will do so by feeding you all sorts of obscure and sometimes unpronounciable placenames (for a foreigner, that is).

but at least you don't have to stay quite as low.

Schiphol TMA starting at 1500 feet above a former floodplane lying mostly below sea level. London TMA starting at 2500 feet above terrain that rises to 900 feet in places. What's the practical difference?

[mmgreve]

thanks guys - you learn every day