EASA Aerobatics Rating
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Dublin
Posts: 2,547
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
EASA Aerobatics Rating
Is it known yet what is involved in getting the Aerobatics rating under EASA?
Presumably there will be some sort of grandfather rights for JAA PPL holders. If so, does anyone know how much Aero's you need to have loged in order to get the grandfather rights? Or indeed, what the defination of Aero's will be under EASA?
Just wondering if I should do an hour's aero's with an instructor before my licence changes to EASA next year (renewal due in July 2012), and thereby (hopefully) be entitled to grandfather rights.
I don't really have any intension of doing aeros in the future, but if an hour now preserved my privlidge to do them in the future without any skills test or written test, then I think it would be worth it. But I don't really see much information about it at present.
dp
Presumably there will be some sort of grandfather rights for JAA PPL holders. If so, does anyone know how much Aero's you need to have loged in order to get the grandfather rights? Or indeed, what the defination of Aero's will be under EASA?
Just wondering if I should do an hour's aero's with an instructor before my licence changes to EASA next year (renewal due in July 2012), and thereby (hopefully) be entitled to grandfather rights.
I don't really have any intension of doing aeros in the future, but if an hour now preserved my privlidge to do them in the future without any skills test or written test, then I think it would be worth it. But I don't really see much information about it at present.
dp
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London
Posts: 519
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think they've stuck a stupid 40 hour PIC requirement on it. Other than that I don't know. I suggest two fingers to EASA... They can only tell us what to do if we let them!
FCL.010 Definitions
‘Aerobatic flight’ means an intentional manoeuvre involving an abrupt change in an aircraft’s attitude, an abnormal attitude, or abnormal acceleration, not necessary for normal flight or for instruction for licences or ratings other than the aerobatic rating.'
FCL.800 Aerobatic rating
(a) Holders of a pilot licence for aeroplanes, TMG or sailplanes shall only undertake aerobatic flights when they hold the appropriate rating.
(b) Applicants for an aerobatic rating shall have completed:
(1) at least 40 hours of flight time or, in the case of sailplanes, 120 launches as PIC in the appropriate aircraft category, completed after the issue of the licence;
(2) a training course at an ATO, including:
(i) theoretical knowledge instruction appropriate for the rating;
(ii) at least 5 hours or 20 flights of aerobatic instruction in the appropriate aircraft category.
(c) The privileges of the aerobatic rating shall be limited to the aircraft category in which the flight instruction was completed. The privileges will be extended to another category of aircraft if the pilot holds a licence for that aircraft category and has successfully completed at least 3 dual training flights covering the full aerobatic training syllabus in that category of aircraft.
(a) Holders of a pilot licence for aeroplanes, TMG or sailplanes shall only undertake aerobatic flights when they hold the appropriate rating.
(b) Applicants for an aerobatic rating shall have completed:
(1) at least 40 hours of flight time or, in the case of sailplanes, 120 launches as PIC in the appropriate aircraft category, completed after the issue of the licence;
(2) a training course at an ATO, including:
(i) theoretical knowledge instruction appropriate for the rating;
(ii) at least 5 hours or 20 flights of aerobatic instruction in the appropriate aircraft category.
(c) The privileges of the aerobatic rating shall be limited to the aircraft category in which the flight instruction was completed. The privileges will be extended to another category of aircraft if the pilot holds a licence for that aircraft category and has successfully completed at least 3 dual training flights covering the full aerobatic training syllabus in that category of aircraft.
I don't know what the situation is in Eire, but in the UK the EASA Aerobatic Rating will only be needed after Apr 2015 - and even then for aerobatics on EASA aircraft only. Those who wish to fly aerobatics in Chipmunks, Tiger Moths or other suitable non-EASA aircraft will not require an aerobatic rating.
The idiots in Köln have added a '40 hr as PIC since licence issue' pre-requisite before the Aerobatic Rating can be issued upon completion of the course, which we are trying to fight. Unfortunately, it seems that the CAA are currently too lily-livered to support the unanimous view of the BAeA, AOPA, LAA and the FAI opposing the EASA prerequisite - but we intend to put pressure on them to damn well grow a pair and to act in support of industry!
The idiots in Köln have added a '40 hr as PIC since licence issue' pre-requisite before the Aerobatic Rating can be issued upon completion of the course, which we are trying to fight. Unfortunately, it seems that the CAA are currently too lily-livered to support the unanimous view of the BAeA, AOPA, LAA and the FAI opposing the EASA prerequisite - but we intend to put pressure on them to damn well grow a pair and to act in support of industry!
FCL.010 Definitions
‘Category of aircraft’ means a categorisation of aircraft according to specified basic characteristics, for example aeroplane, powered-lift, helicopter, airship, sailplane, free balloon.
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 4,598
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
‘Category of aircraft’ means a categorisation of aircraft according to specified basic characteristics, for example aeroplane, powered-lift, helicopter, airship, sailplane, free balloon.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Norfolk
Posts: 1,966
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is madness! I currently hangar and fly three virtually identical aerobatic aeroplanes - two on a permit, one CoA.
I would guess that in my average 100 hrs per year, with most flights being 20mins, less than 5% or 15 sorties do not involve any aerobatics.
That I am expected to acquire (no doubt at a cost) a rating to aerobat the newest member of the fleet defies any logic at all. Loonies and asylum spring to mind. I would write to my MP but I doubt that he'd be inclined to do anything.
Stik
I would guess that in my average 100 hrs per year, with most flights being 20mins, less than 5% or 15 sorties do not involve any aerobatics.
That I am expected to acquire (no doubt at a cost) a rating to aerobat the newest member of the fleet defies any logic at all. Loonies and asylum spring to mind. I would write to my MP but I doubt that he'd be inclined to do anything.
Stik
Don't suppose anyone's come up with any idea of grandfather rights?
I have about 15 hours of unimpeachable aerobatic instruction in my logbook together with less frequent "recreational" aeros plus obviously the PIC requirement. Will this be a rubber stamp job or will a flight be required to "demonstrate competency" or some other such rubbish?
Hope the CAA have lost their regulatory anode and cathode...
I have about 15 hours of unimpeachable aerobatic instruction in my logbook together with less frequent "recreational" aeros plus obviously the PIC requirement. Will this be a rubber stamp job or will a flight be required to "demonstrate competency" or some other such rubbish?
Hope the CAA have lost their regulatory anode and cathode...
EU law does not recognise, per se, the concept of 'grandfather rights'. Previous experience may, however, be credited towards the issue of Part-FCL licences and ratings in accordance with a 'Credit Report', prepared by the competent authority in consultation with EASA. One may suppose that a credit report will be prepared in respect of previous aerobatic experience but it is doubtful that this is currently high on the UK CAA's list of priorities. As BEagle correctly points out, the aerobatic rating is not currently intended to become a legal requirement in the UK until 2015, although that's not so long given the CAA's usual work rate.
Don't suppose anyone's come up with any idea of grandfather rights?
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Norfolk
Posts: 1,966
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Grandfather rights - surely my CAA issued intermediate aerobatic formation (lead and member) Display Authorisation down to 100' agl is evidence to those rights.
This is just so stupid, bureaucracy for its own sake.
----------------------
Many years ago, "JJ" was hauled in front of the magistrate for low flying at Santa Pod, he beat the place up and allegedly caused damge to the timing apparatus by going through it in the wrong direction.
He was found guilty and asked to surrender his licence. At this point he confessed that he didn't possess one. He was asked to explain himself and said, well during the war when they taught me to fly the Spitfire they didn't issue me with a licence!
This is just so stupid, bureaucracy for its own sake.
----------------------
Many years ago, "JJ" was hauled in front of the magistrate for low flying at Santa Pod, he beat the place up and allegedly caused damge to the timing apparatus by going through it in the wrong direction.
He was found guilty and asked to surrender his licence. At this point he confessed that he didn't possess one. He was asked to explain himself and said, well during the war when they taught me to fly the Spitfire they didn't issue me with a licence!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Dublin
Posts: 2,547
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes we have. AOPA, BAeA, BGA and LAA have been working with the CAA on this and one of the first items we discussed was 'grandfather rights' for those with evidence of having received aerobatic instruction or for FIs who've already had the 'no aerobatic instruction' removed from their FI Rating.
Any idea how much aeros experience will be required to get grandfather rights? If I did my hour with an instructor for revalidating my SEP class rating, learning something about aeros, do you think that would be enough to get grandfather rights?
Do we know if the aeros rating will require revalidation? I presume it will, given that it's a rating and not a qualification.
Having said that, it might all be a little pointless, as the requirements to get the rating shown above, seem pretty much what I'd need to do to be competent anyway, so getting grandfather rights might be somewhat pointless, and saves nothing.
dp
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Midlands
Posts: 2,359
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I did an AOPA aerobatic cert in the early 90’s and did a bit of competition aerobatics a few years later. I had done < 40 hours in aerobatic machinery when I was cleared to standard level competition. I am looking at getting back into some TW flying and possibly some light aerobatics. I assume provided I fly a none EASA aircraft I can keep my CAA PPL and ignore all this Cr@p?
Rod1
Rod1
dublinpilot:
No it won't. Although to prevent the idiotic €urocrats inventing yet more rules (e.g. defining the content of the revalidation training flight), we will probably make 'recommendations' for pilots who haven't committed aerobation for a while.
Rod1:
Correct. But even if you decide to change to an EASA part-FCL pilot licence, you will still be able to fly non-EASA aerobatic aircraft on that licence AND conduct aerobatics on them WITHOUT an Aerobatic Rating!
Yes, it is indeed all complete and utter bolleaux!
Do we know if the aeros rating will require revalidation? I presume it will, given that it's a rating and not a qualification
Rod1:
I assume provided I fly a none EASA aircraft I can keep my CAA PPL and ignore all this Cr@p?
Yes, it is indeed all complete and utter bolleaux!
If I did my hour with an instructor for revalidating my SEP class rating, learning something about aeros, do you think that would be enough to get grandfather rights?
Couldonlyaffordafiver
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: The Twilight Zone near 30W
Posts: 1,934
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Having completed five hours of aeros training back in 19mumble-mumble as part of a CAP509 course, sadly in a C152 Aerobat instead of a proper aeroplane, and subsequently taken a break from that kind of thing for a few years, I have been flying a Yak52 in various unusual attitudes regularly for the past five years.
I presume my rating will be granted no questions asked as a result.
Out of interest, does anyone know if a Yak52 is an "EASA" type or not? I assume it is as it has a CAA Permit (as opposed to LAA).
I presume my rating will be granted no questions asked as a result.
Out of interest, does anyone know if a Yak52 is an "EASA" type or not? I assume it is as it has a CAA Permit (as opposed to LAA).
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: South East
Posts: 195
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi HF
The status of CAA vs EASA permit ac is a little unclear. I am not sure where the Yak 52s will end up.
As far as I believe for the rating you will have to pay money to have your grandfather rights. You may have to do a flight with an Aerobatic instructor? (I know where you can find one )
The plus side is we have some very good guys on our side fighting the case.
As others on this thread have stated, this is just lunacy
The status of CAA vs EASA permit ac is a little unclear. I am not sure where the Yak 52s will end up.
As far as I believe for the rating you will have to pay money to have your grandfather rights. You may have to do a flight with an Aerobatic instructor? (I know where you can find one
)The plus side is we have some very good guys on our side fighting the case.
As others on this thread have stated, this is just lunacy
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 4,598
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't object to some sort of formal sign-off, possibly after some sort of structured course, before a fresh PPL is allowed to perform aerobatics. But I wish they had called it an "endorsement" (like tailwheel, complex etc) instead of a rating. That would have been much easier for all involved.