If Carlsberg made a flying Club
Stickandrudderman: I'm glad you enjoyed the OS aerobatic day last year. The aim was that it would become at least an annual event, rotating around the clubs that were represented, but unfortunately a medical problem has intervened this year and nobody else has picked-up the baton.
To the OP:
Important aspects are: a friendly and supportive club spirit, ground social activities (including dining-in nights), flying outings, bar, post-PPL mentorship, a range of aircraft types so that a visible skill progression is available, approachable and experienced staff, experienced FIs (500-1000 hours instructing as a minimum) who have a customer-focussed attitude and are doing it because they enjoy it and have a passion (not just hours building), and I hate to use the term but CRM (Customer Relationship Management for those who are lucky-enough not to have come across it before) is actually very important. Flying must be fun and exciting.
However, two controversial areas that I feel could be done better are the charging structure and the insurance excess liability. IMnsHO these should be transparent so that the customer knows what they are paying for and so there are no cross-subsidies.
An invoice should show:
Although accidents are not common it seems normal for clubs/schools to absorb any accident costs; this can affect the viability of the business or the rental costs to other members. Insurance should be handled in the same way as hire cars. In the event of an accident the hirer should be liable for the insurance excess (or repair cost if minor) and should be required to put a credit card on file and sign an agreement. For an additional payment (either annual or per rental payment) the excess can be waived, like the hire car CDW. Nothing new needs to be invented because this is exactly as the car hire system operates.
HFD
(edited to fix several errors)
To the OP:
Important aspects are: a friendly and supportive club spirit, ground social activities (including dining-in nights), flying outings, bar, post-PPL mentorship, a range of aircraft types so that a visible skill progression is available, approachable and experienced staff, experienced FIs (500-1000 hours instructing as a minimum) who have a customer-focussed attitude and are doing it because they enjoy it and have a passion (not just hours building), and I hate to use the term but CRM (Customer Relationship Management for those who are lucky-enough not to have come across it before) is actually very important. Flying must be fun and exciting.
However, two controversial areas that I feel could be done better are the charging structure and the insurance excess liability. IMnsHO these should be transparent so that the customer knows what they are paying for and so there are no cross-subsidies.
An invoice should show:
- the aircraft charge at an assumed fuel cost
- the instructor/examiner charge (if any) for flight time
- the instructor charge (if any) for ground time
- additional landing fees (one is included in the aircraft charge)
- approach fees (if any)
- a fuel surcharge/refund based on the actual fuel price on the day
Although accidents are not common it seems normal for clubs/schools to absorb any accident costs; this can affect the viability of the business or the rental costs to other members. Insurance should be handled in the same way as hire cars. In the event of an accident the hirer should be liable for the insurance excess (or repair cost if minor) and should be required to put a credit card on file and sign an agreement. For an additional payment (either annual or per rental payment) the excess can be waived, like the hire car CDW. Nothing new needs to be invented because this is exactly as the car hire system operates.
HFD
(edited to fix several errors)
Last edited by hugh flung_dung; 3rd Aug 2011 at 11:53.
I have been a member of two professionally run flying clubs and one amateur one.
The first professional club was based at a large airport and had a superb airport location which, with excellent food, attracted many members of the public who bought trial flights. It operated the usual fleet of Cessna/Piper aircraft. The very good social side was maintained by a large group of supporters, most of whom did not fly except as passengers. Although it was great to be a member, I have no idea how financially viable it was.
This club was sold to a national flying training organisation who completely, and very quickly, destroyed the social side. I assume that this venture then failed because it was sold(given?) back to some of the old instructors and still exists but does not appear to have regained it's former glory which depended on the social activities and excellent catering.
The second club offers good catering, a building social side but, being more rural, has to extend it's catchment area to attract enough paying customers. It does this with a good restaurant which attracts many members of the public who buy trial flights.
It would seem that catering and social activities are the key to a successful club, especially if people have to travel to get there.
Obviously a core of regular spenders can be maintained if there are good facilities for private owners e.g. hangarage and engineering.
The first professional club was based at a large airport and had a superb airport location which, with excellent food, attracted many members of the public who bought trial flights. It operated the usual fleet of Cessna/Piper aircraft. The very good social side was maintained by a large group of supporters, most of whom did not fly except as passengers. Although it was great to be a member, I have no idea how financially viable it was.
This club was sold to a national flying training organisation who completely, and very quickly, destroyed the social side. I assume that this venture then failed because it was sold(given?) back to some of the old instructors and still exists but does not appear to have regained it's former glory which depended on the social activities and excellent catering.
The second club offers good catering, a building social side but, being more rural, has to extend it's catchment area to attract enough paying customers. It does this with a good restaurant which attracts many members of the public who buy trial flights.
It would seem that catering and social activities are the key to a successful club, especially if people have to travel to get there.
Obviously a core of regular spenders can be maintained if there are good facilities for private owners e.g. hangarage and engineering.
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He could probably scrap the 152 as well. If the Aerobat is cheap to rent then it could be a good laugh but otherwise, surely a Citabria or Cap10 would be better? I guess the problem is what is cheap and does not require a tailwheel endorsement but is still fun to do aeros in. Suggestions anyone?
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Looking at it from the 'visiting aircraft' point of view, if I'm looking for somewhere to go, I check out whether it has a good caff/restaurant first, and by good I don't mean lark's tongues in aspic but reasonably priced home made steak pie and veg/chips, large mug of proper tea, that sort of thing. Sherburn has an excellent caff that does that sort of thing as does Sywell and Cosford. If it has then it goes on my list of places to visit, if it doesn't I wouldn't even consider it.
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Thank you guys (and girls)
I will be trying to incorporate most of your responses;
In the last two months I have managed to do the following;
With regard to aircraft selection, yes a more aerobatic would be nice, but it has to be commercially viable. With two Cessna 150s, one an aerobat and one non, the idea is that the aerobat could do either PPL training or hairybatics, We have also now got a PA28, two PA38s as well as the Slingsbys.
I have ordered a new coffee machine!
I am organising a dawn patrol with a return patrol to a couple of local airfields,
the instructors I have now are all 15000 hour plus and examiners as well,
I have put new carpet in the clubhouse and repainted the walls, am building a flight sim using an old fuselage for winter rainy days (only ms flight sim and a 50" screen), I am organising an online flight booking system, and HAVE REDUCED THE HIRE RATES, I have also banned any upfront payments, got a credit card machine, have registered with three trial flight organisations to get a steady flow of trial flights and hopefully new members, we have installed wifi for members, and got a computer for flight planning and met with a printer ready to go in.
We have got FREE sweatshirts for the members ( donation to charity), and have got lifejackets, liferaft and an ELT for members to hire. We have also got some Airaware GPSs for the club aircraft. I have also added a ADF to one of the Tomahawks and PA28s.
Just need to find some weekend instructors if anyone knows of any good ones then please PM me. I will let all know how it goes. There is more of your suggestions to incorporate yet. I dont control the catering on site so cant do much on that front but have installed a snack bar of chocolate and crisps etc etc.
And finally- we managed a £12.00 profit last month!!!!!- Pity was I went out down the pub to celebrate and spent £30!. Hey ho!
Thanks again guys- any more suggestions really welcome.
In the last two months I have managed to do the following;
With regard to aircraft selection, yes a more aerobatic would be nice, but it has to be commercially viable. With two Cessna 150s, one an aerobat and one non, the idea is that the aerobat could do either PPL training or hairybatics, We have also now got a PA28, two PA38s as well as the Slingsbys.
I have ordered a new coffee machine!
I am organising a dawn patrol with a return patrol to a couple of local airfields,
the instructors I have now are all 15000 hour plus and examiners as well,
I have put new carpet in the clubhouse and repainted the walls, am building a flight sim using an old fuselage for winter rainy days (only ms flight sim and a 50" screen), I am organising an online flight booking system, and HAVE REDUCED THE HIRE RATES, I have also banned any upfront payments, got a credit card machine, have registered with three trial flight organisations to get a steady flow of trial flights and hopefully new members, we have installed wifi for members, and got a computer for flight planning and met with a printer ready to go in.
We have got FREE sweatshirts for the members ( donation to charity), and have got lifejackets, liferaft and an ELT for members to hire. We have also got some Airaware GPSs for the club aircraft. I have also added a ADF to one of the Tomahawks and PA28s.
Just need to find some weekend instructors if anyone knows of any good ones then please PM me. I will let all know how it goes. There is more of your suggestions to incorporate yet. I dont control the catering on site so cant do much on that front but have installed a snack bar of chocolate and crisps etc etc.
And finally- we managed a £12.00 profit last month!!!!!- Pity was I went out down the pub to celebrate and spent £30!. Hey ho!
Thanks again guys- any more suggestions really welcome.
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I was just wondering with the exception of free fuel, free flying, blonde 25 year olds pumping your fuel, free beer and spitfires for hire, what do people think are the important things to get right and what are the ingredients to a really good flying school/ club.
I think the one thing most/all schools/clubs do wrong is to push out experienced pilots, because they don't spend money there anymore, undermine the authority of the ever-wise instructors, and most likely divert the students' precious cash into their own PPL cost sharing arrangements.
If you can provide facilities/activities (flight planning, fly-outs, etc) where ex customers like that can participate, with their own aircraft perhaps, you will end up with a dynamic environment, rather than the sterile scenario found in most places.
And I am talking about the actual place of business, not the cafe next door where these people might hang out.
The problem is that the above runs counter to the usual business model which is to sell maximum hours, with an instructor in the RHS if possible.
You could also try charging less for ground running time (after the initial brakes-off moment). I know that going to "dry" is complicated but having punters paying £150/hr or whatever while they are waiting at the hold is inviting various kinds of bad behaviour, which I see every time I fly.
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You could also try charging less for ground running time (after the initial brakes-off moment). I know that going to "dry" is complicated but having punters paying £150/hr or whatever while they are waiting at the hold is inviting various kinds of bad behaviour, which I see every time I fly.
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Safety culture. Safe and sensible flying is encouraged and an ethos which emphasizes that the PPL is only the beginning. Opportunities for group fly outs to far flung places or just brush up lessons. Maybe a free lesson (only the instructor, not the aircraft) every 10-20 hours of flying or a mandatory one every six months. To do the fun stuff and things people forget (stalling, crosswind landings, PFLs) it can be made very good fun.
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Home - Hinton Pilot Flight Training
Still got lots to do yet to the website inculding putting the online booking system on- but your comments as always would be welcomed. Personally I think the website I have made looking- well BORING!
Still got lots to do yet to the website inculding putting the online booking system on- but your comments as always would be welcomed. Personally I think the website I have made looking- well BORING!
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Just an observation, but it looks to me from your website like your "club" is actually a flying school. I thought from your earlier posts that you were trying to achieve a positive club environment. I think you need to advertise that fact first with photo's etc. and then add a, "we provide flight training as well" section. Like I said just an observation.
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It's also worth being pedantic about the accuracy - are you sure you offer IRs 
? Good too to correct some misconceptions about the qualifying cross country, since it's a required stage in the PPL/NPPL courses but it isn't a formal test.
? Good too to correct some misconceptions about the qualifying cross country, since it's a required stage in the PPL/NPPL courses but it isn't a formal test.
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Good luck with the new venture! A couple of picky comments;
1. You are quite opaque on the website as to where this is located. (I'm assuming that it is Hinton-In- the-Hedges).
I would probably shout louder about that and have a map, by road and for arrivals by air.
2. Your 1 hour air experience flight seems to retail at a lot more that 1 hour dual in the same aircraft, which would make me (were I a potential customer) ask why? Also, they seem to vary, page-to-page.
3. Are you certain that you will be offering full IR training? I thought that this was a specialised field.....
1. You are quite opaque on the website as to where this is located. (I'm assuming that it is Hinton-In- the-Hedges).
I would probably shout louder about that and have a map, by road and for arrivals by air.
2. Your 1 hour air experience flight seems to retail at a lot more that 1 hour dual in the same aircraft, which would make me (were I a potential customer) ask why? Also, they seem to vary, page-to-page.
3. Are you certain that you will be offering full IR training? I thought that this was a specialised field.....
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IR training will be a lot easier (in terms of establishment issues) under EASA, with the FTO/RF distinction disappearing.
It's actually not a bad thing for the industry when it comes to upgrading standards - EASA essentially want schools to maintain consistency and quality, a slightly odd concept to some in the industry!
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"It's actually not a bad thing for the industry when it comes to upgrading standards"
I've got a bad feeling the additional cost will make some of the marginal clubs no longer financially viable.
I've got a bad feeling the additional cost will make some of the marginal clubs no longer financially viable.
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If industry generally is anything to go by, a quality manual is not an issue. You hire a consultant and for a few k he produces an ISO9000 quality manual for you. After that, you ignore it... That is how ISO9000 runs. Nearly 20 years later, it is just a sham. It's a very "European" approach however.
The company is only as good as the people running it.
I guess madlandrover is right. But what about fees to EASA? Currently an FTO needs to pay much bigger fees AFAIK. This in turn hugely inflates FTO training fees.
The company is only as good as the people running it.
I guess madlandrover is right. But what about fees to EASA? Currently an FTO needs to pay much bigger fees AFAIK. This in turn hugely inflates FTO training fees.
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Yes we do offer full IRs- both Single engine and multi- and we have our own examiner. With regards to the other comments there are again some good points- and I will make some more amendments. Many thanks guys and gals
Chris
Chris