Hard airfields for new PPL?
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Am I missing something here?
I always thought it was perfectly sensible not to overfly the petrol station at Popham.
It surely has nothing to do with noise, and everything to do with avoiding a potential disaster.
I always thought it was perfectly sensible not to overfly the petrol station at Popham.
It surely has nothing to do with noise, and everything to do with avoiding a potential disaster.
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Why pander to a petrol station?
who was there first, the airfield or the petrol station?
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I have only ever watched as a First Officer a Captain land at Madeira, but after that it made all my previous worrying fall into perspective trust me. Take a more experienced PPL with you from your club if you want to start stretching your skills a bit. And do it, bit by bit.
There will be plenty of helpful folk just lining up to pass on their knowledge etc, and share the experience
Compton Abbas because of its location and altitude above sea level(altimeter settings), Denham because of its location in Class A airspace(use of VOR's etc), Fenland(middle of nowhere), Cardiff for the bigger aerodrome experience with VRP entries(don't land at St Athan!!), Shoreham for a sometimes busy ATZ and maze of parking. All new skills and experiences.
There will be plenty of helpful folk just lining up to pass on their knowledge etc, and share the experience
Compton Abbas because of its location and altitude above sea level(altimeter settings), Denham because of its location in Class A airspace(use of VOR's etc), Fenland(middle of nowhere), Cardiff for the bigger aerodrome experience with VRP entries(don't land at St Athan!!), Shoreham for a sometimes busy ATZ and maze of parking. All new skills and experiences.
PPRuNe Co-Pilot
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Ahh Madeira Tonker!!!
What an airport to land, especially if there is wind involved... now imagine all the ingredients of making Madeira such an interesting airport to fly to, but using a Socata Tobago:
http://planesandstuff.********.com/2...mall-ones.html
I stumbled across the above blog, interesting pictures, there is also a video of that TB trying to land twice, the first was a go around, it was windy, very windy and it was a PPL lesson I wonder how the student felt...
What an airport to land, especially if there is wind involved... now imagine all the ingredients of making Madeira such an interesting airport to fly to, but using a Socata Tobago:
http://planesandstuff.********.com/2...mall-ones.html
I stumbled across the above blog, interesting pictures, there is also a video of that TB trying to land twice, the first was a go around, it was windy, very windy and it was a PPL lesson I wonder how the student felt...
Thanks for the suggestion, but I flew in to Popham this morning without difficulty. I am surprised you think that the turn on 26 makes it no more difficult than a standard straight-in approach. It still isn't hard, but it's one more complication.
Perhaps you could try helpfully responding to people's questions rather than your usual trick; which seems to be to imply that you know all (which is demonstrably untrue, however much you like to believe it), and that people are idiots for even asking...
Maybe it's a useful trait for a police officer, I don't know...
If anyone actually *does* know anything about how the situation at Popham came about, rather than SoCal's smoke and mirrors, it would be interesting to know the history
Perhaps you could try helpfully responding to people's questions rather than your usual trick; which seems to be to imply that you know all (which is demonstrably untrue, however much you like to believe it), and that people are idiots for even asking...
Maybe it's a useful trait for a police officer, I don't know...
If anyone actually *does* know anything about how the situation at Popham came about, rather than SoCal's smoke and mirrors, it would be interesting to know the history
When Popham was built, three runways were laid down:08/26, 03/21 and a shorter one between them that's no longer there.
In retrospect, building 08/26 on about 06/24, with the clubhouse somewhere a bit different would have been a better idea. But it wasn't - it was built wiht 08/26 pointing right at the petrol station: which had been there for some years beforehand.
So, somebody realised that this was silly - the risk of an undershot approach on 26 or an EFATO on 08 was above zero, and thus it was sensible to put a 20 degree dogleg on approach to 26, or climb-out from 08.
It makes you work a bit harder on approach, and in reality turns 26 into a 650m landing runway, not an 800m runway - and has given a few people a few grey hairs on a windless approach onto 26. But, I'm not aware that it's ever actually caused an accident - so it's just something to make the place a bit more interesting.
G
In retrospect, building 08/26 on about 06/24, with the clubhouse somewhere a bit different would have been a better idea. But it wasn't - it was built wiht 08/26 pointing right at the petrol station: which had been there for some years beforehand.
So, somebody realised that this was silly - the risk of an undershot approach on 26 or an EFATO on 08 was above zero, and thus it was sensible to put a 20 degree dogleg on approach to 26, or climb-out from 08.
It makes you work a bit harder on approach, and in reality turns 26 into a 650m landing runway, not an 800m runway - and has given a few people a few grey hairs on a windless approach onto 26. But, I'm not aware that it's ever actually caused an accident - so it's just something to make the place a bit more interesting.
G
Thanks Ghengis; just the kind of interesting and informative answer that was hoped for! Others could learn from that...
SoCal, I am merely drawing attention to the way your replies appear to many others on here. See it as constructive feedback. You were the first to resort, for no good reason, to personal attacks:
So, don't try and play that card 
SoCal, I am merely drawing attention to the way your replies appear to many others on here. See it as constructive feedback. You were the first to resort, for no good reason, to personal attacks:
Sorry if it is too difficult to comprehend
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Once again, what started as an interesting and informative thread has been turned into the usual willy wanging contest by some serial offenders!
Some military airfields, especially those with RAF flying clubs attached can be good and interesting places to fly into. Might be worth considering for the future
Some military airfields, especially those with RAF flying clubs attached can be good and interesting places to fly into. Might be worth considering for the future
Indeed, let's get things back on track 
Some places that I have enjoyed (that aren't already mentioned) include:
- Deanland. A nice little farm strip in the South East.
- Audley End. A short walk to the stately homes and gardens.
- Maypole. In Kent, a lovely pub across the road from the airport.
- Laddingford. A farm strip near Paddock Wood, don't forget your PPR!
- Great Oakley. Again, a farm strip with a nice pub just down the road!
None of these are too difficult for a reasonably competent new PPL who is confident in their aircraft.
Some places that I have enjoyed (that aren't already mentioned) include:
- Deanland. A nice little farm strip in the South East.
- Audley End. A short walk to the stately homes and gardens.
- Maypole. In Kent, a lovely pub across the road from the airport.
- Laddingford. A farm strip near Paddock Wood, don't forget your PPR!
- Great Oakley. Again, a farm strip with a nice pub just down the road!
None of these are too difficult for a reasonably competent new PPL who is confident in their aircraft.
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I think for a newly qualified PPL 'hard' is what you're not used to. I trained at Biggin and have found flying into air/ground airfields quite daunting. In reality it wasn't that challenging but when you've read umpteen threads about people being cut up on final by some non-radio microlight it begins to affect your perception. If you've trained at an a/g field then I'd suggest somewhere with full atc - Manston for instance (big runway, relatively quiet, hard to miss). If you've trained with atc then maybe Headcorn (follow the railway line from Tonbridge and use your DMe if you aren't confident of spotting it) which is a lovely place to go for a few hours. I'm at a similar stage myself and have found this thread very interesting indeed - thanks for asking!
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When Popham was built, three runways were laid down:08/26, 03/21 and a shorter one between them that's no longer there.
Anyway, Popham now is much extended, and is my favourite and regular local land-away. There is nearly always something (or someone) interesting there: microlights, gyros, gliders (landing out), vintage, tourers, you name it. Even a DC3 and the Vickers Vimy have been seen there. With the possible exception of r/w 21which is quite straightforward, all the approaches are more challenging than the norm. But none are "dangerous", even that to r/w26; if anyone thinks that statement is "willy wanging", then that's up to you. If a new PPL wants to push their boundaries just a little, then I would suggest it's an ideal destination.
Slip
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I think for a newly qualified PPL 'hard' is what you're not used to.
It's funny that what seems daunting at first often turns out to be completely straight forward once you've done it, and usually leaves you with a big smile on your face.
To the OP: If you get bored of avoiding the petrol station at Popham, why not have a go at avoiding the nuclear power station at Lydd!
I love how NONE of you wealthy individuals ever mention landing fees
every pilot after gaining a PPL is sooner or later going to have one of those moments where they're in the air asking themselves "am I doing this right?
G
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If I read this original post question correctly, it is along the lines of:
"What airfields in the SE are to be wary of as a fresh PPL and might require an instructor or more experienced PPL on board"??
There's been some rather nice and interesting dialogue in between, but I think this is a wise question to pose.
There is one airfield that I've flown out of a great deal and that instantly comes to mind: Clacton.
The footpath has been mentioned (largely blind from the 36 line-up point), but this is more a nuisance than anything. It does have a bump on it though that can lead to getting airborne early, which could be an issue if too slow.
More important however I would say are:
- The strip itself is particularly short for usual GA types (600m)
- Has houses on short final to 18, and which necessitate an immediate left turn after take-off from 36
- The surface is frequently water-logged and sticky in winter, especially at 36 end, which means rolling take-offs from departure point and careful thought about run-ups
- Has several obstacles on the 36 approach or 18 climb-out (lamp-posts and high-sided traffic) and clear thoughts about where you would go in an EFATO (golf course, beach, water?)
- On departure from 18 there is the risk of disorientation due to sea-haze on climb-out in many conditions
- It has an almost continuous cross-wind of 10kt+ during middle of day
The major thing that really catches people out though is the very common wind-shear coming out of the cruise into the circuit. This leads to all sorts of issues getting base right and then on to finals on to what is a short and tricky strip. It has caught out many, even experienced, PPL's. This is compounded by the lack of an overhead join, so some smart judgement needs to be made on downwind.
It is harder than many a farm strip and given a choice I would much prefer to land on the private strip just to the north or pretty much any of the surrounding fields than the airfield itself.
I've personally seen one PA28 nosewheel collapse there after a second approach on to 36 and two near wipe-outs into traffic on the road at 36 end (one a Jodel, one a Christen Eagle) after very late go-arounds on hot, sticky days off 18.
Some people will think I'm exaggerating or trying to scare people off this place, but frankly it's somewhere that requires some respect and experience to go into and the accident record highlights this.
Compton can be challenging, especially in a mod-strong southerlies/SE'lies (and probably best avoided on such days...), but most of the public airfields in SE England I think it's fair to say are relatively benign and are challenging more for their busy-ness (e.g. Shoreham on a Sat lunchtime), proximity to CTA (e.g. Denham, Stapleford, Waltham) or their landing fees (e.g. Norwich, Southampton) more than anything!!
Each has their little procedures and foibles and potential gotchas, but these can be mitigated by properly talking to whoever's giving you PPR on the day or reading the VFR plate carefully.
This may not totally carry if flying a vintage or difficult type however, e.g. Tiger, where slopes which mean nothing to a spamcan can suddenly become potential traps, so asking around to someone experienced on type about a place is again worthwhile.
Now, Scotland, that's another matter....phew, there's some places to really put hairs on your back!!
"What airfields in the SE are to be wary of as a fresh PPL and might require an instructor or more experienced PPL on board"??
There's been some rather nice and interesting dialogue in between, but I think this is a wise question to pose.
There is one airfield that I've flown out of a great deal and that instantly comes to mind: Clacton.
The footpath has been mentioned (largely blind from the 36 line-up point), but this is more a nuisance than anything. It does have a bump on it though that can lead to getting airborne early, which could be an issue if too slow.
More important however I would say are:
- The strip itself is particularly short for usual GA types (600m)
- Has houses on short final to 18, and which necessitate an immediate left turn after take-off from 36
- The surface is frequently water-logged and sticky in winter, especially at 36 end, which means rolling take-offs from departure point and careful thought about run-ups
- Has several obstacles on the 36 approach or 18 climb-out (lamp-posts and high-sided traffic) and clear thoughts about where you would go in an EFATO (golf course, beach, water?)
- On departure from 18 there is the risk of disorientation due to sea-haze on climb-out in many conditions
- It has an almost continuous cross-wind of 10kt+ during middle of day
The major thing that really catches people out though is the very common wind-shear coming out of the cruise into the circuit. This leads to all sorts of issues getting base right and then on to finals on to what is a short and tricky strip. It has caught out many, even experienced, PPL's. This is compounded by the lack of an overhead join, so some smart judgement needs to be made on downwind.
It is harder than many a farm strip and given a choice I would much prefer to land on the private strip just to the north or pretty much any of the surrounding fields than the airfield itself.
I've personally seen one PA28 nosewheel collapse there after a second approach on to 36 and two near wipe-outs into traffic on the road at 36 end (one a Jodel, one a Christen Eagle) after very late go-arounds on hot, sticky days off 18.
Some people will think I'm exaggerating or trying to scare people off this place, but frankly it's somewhere that requires some respect and experience to go into and the accident record highlights this.
Compton can be challenging, especially in a mod-strong southerlies/SE'lies (and probably best avoided on such days...), but most of the public airfields in SE England I think it's fair to say are relatively benign and are challenging more for their busy-ness (e.g. Shoreham on a Sat lunchtime), proximity to CTA (e.g. Denham, Stapleford, Waltham) or their landing fees (e.g. Norwich, Southampton) more than anything!!
Each has their little procedures and foibles and potential gotchas, but these can be mitigated by properly talking to whoever's giving you PPR on the day or reading the VFR plate carefully.
This may not totally carry if flying a vintage or difficult type however, e.g. Tiger, where slopes which mean nothing to a spamcan can suddenly become potential traps, so asking around to someone experienced on type about a place is again worthwhile.
Now, Scotland, that's another matter....phew, there's some places to really put hairs on your back!!
Last edited by betterfromabove; 19th Jun 2011 at 00:29.
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Scratching my head a bit more, another place that I heard was challenging is Northrepps (very short and hedge on approach), but heard they were re-orientating the runway....is that right?
More a microlight site, but Newton Peveril in Dorset looks extremely interesting....about the only GA types to make it there would be Cubs or Jodels I would think.
Having learnt on short strips, I actually found operating into big runways were a bit of a shock early on. First few landings were not exactly brilliant, as I was flaring too early, so came in a wee bit hard.
It's all a perspective thing... following a white line down to touchdown was also a new thing, so you end up putting yourself just left of centreline if not careful. Anyone else found this?
Some instructors will tell you this is all rubbish, but heard it from many new PPL's.
Hope you have fun exploring...!
BFA
More a microlight site, but Newton Peveril in Dorset looks extremely interesting....about the only GA types to make it there would be Cubs or Jodels I would think.
Having learnt on short strips, I actually found operating into big runways were a bit of a shock early on. First few landings were not exactly brilliant, as I was flaring too early, so came in a wee bit hard.
It's all a perspective thing... following a white line down to touchdown was also a new thing, so you end up putting yourself just left of centreline if not careful. Anyone else found this?
Some instructors will tell you this is all rubbish, but heard it from many new PPL's.
Hope you have fun exploring...!
BFA
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Popham - reporting back
Well, I bit the bullet and tried out Popham for myself today. Downloaded the notes from the websites, checked out Google maps to familiarise myself with the layout and noted that the wind was set to be pretty much down the runway. 'Pilot' mag in my flight bag (with the free landing voucher) and all systems go!
I joined overhead from the South, and relaxed after hearing the 'contact one ahead' (let's not start that debate again!
) call from the chap I could see starting a standard overhead join from the North. That at least left me free to concentrate on my own circuit.
Found the helpful white arrow on the ground without any problems and found the offset approach completely do-able as a newish pilot with still quite a bit less than 100 hours P1. Thanks by the way to whoever it was (Ghengis?) that suggested a suitable aiming point as being abeam the windsock to the south. That certainly helped prevent me from trying to touch down too soon after the turn to line up with the runway.
A lovely airfield, friendly atmosphere, good food and a free landing (on this occasion) - I'll definitely be returning. Oh, and the icing on the cake? A brief glimpse of the Red Arrows as they made their way south east. 
To the OP, give it a go. It's pretty easy to find, and as long as you've done your preparation, you will be fine.
I joined overhead from the South, and relaxed after hearing the 'contact one ahead' (let's not start that debate again!
) call from the chap I could see starting a standard overhead join from the North. That at least left me free to concentrate on my own circuit.Found the helpful white arrow on the ground without any problems and found the offset approach completely do-able as a newish pilot with still quite a bit less than 100 hours P1. Thanks by the way to whoever it was (Ghengis?) that suggested a suitable aiming point as being abeam the windsock to the south. That certainly helped prevent me from trying to touch down too soon after the turn to line up with the runway.
A lovely airfield, friendly atmosphere, good food and a free landing (on this occasion) - I'll definitely be returning.
Oh, and the icing on the cake? A brief glimpse of the Red Arrows as they made their way south east. To the OP, give it a go. It's pretty easy to find, and as long as you've done your preparation, you will be fine.
Not me, but good advice, whoever gave it to you.
Incidentally, another half hour's flying time beyond Popham and both challenging and enjoyable would be Compton Abbas. DO join from the North, ideally via Shaftesbury - don't be tempted to try any other route for the last couple of miles.
G
Incidentally, another half hour's flying time beyond Popham and both challenging and enjoyable would be Compton Abbas. DO join from the North, ideally via Shaftesbury - don't be tempted to try any other route for the last couple of miles.
G
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The advice about landing abeam the south-side windsock on r/w 26 was on the Popham website, which gives lots of sensible and relevant information. Good to get a fresh un-biased perspective on Popham and r/w 26; I'm glad you enjoyed the place. Visit on one of the regular fly-in days when the landings are again free, but the circuit usually somewhat busier!
Slip
Slip
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I stand corrected, it WAS from the website. I agree, the information contained therein was most helpful.
I will definitely be going back, any 'local' advice for a newbie pilot to help prepare for a busier circuit on a fly-in day then?
Ghengis, am keen to try Compton Abbas soon - just a bit worried about finding it!
I will definitely be going back, any 'local' advice for a newbie pilot to help prepare for a busier circuit on a fly-in day then?
Ghengis, am keen to try Compton Abbas soon - just a bit worried about finding it!