Learning to fly at Wycombe

[Petrolhead88]

Hi Guys,

Sorry if im in the wrong place etc... Im looking for some advice, I want to train for my PPL at Wycombe but to be honest after looking at the websites im a bit confused. Basically im looking at doing a pay as you fly course, any information would be great, best school? Best prices etc...

Thanks a lot

[vfr-uk]

I learnt at Wycombe about 8 years ago, at what was then 'British Airways Flying Club'.

I believe this is now called Airways Flying Club but is to all intensive purposes the same place. I had a great time there and found it a nice place to learn. They're mainly Warrior based.

There's also Wycombe Air Centre (which is now a cabair as far as I know) and is mainly Cessnas. No experience of this one.

Have you had a look around them? If you haven't already, I'd strongly suggest just popping in and talking to them both and see what you think. You might just gel with one or the other or find someone you feel you'd get on with for your training.

Anywhere near London has the same issues in the sense that it's pretty expensive.
There are also White Waltham and Denham near there too. White Waltham is very nice as well. Personally I wasn't so keen on Denham.

Good luck....

[Genghis the Engineer]

I assessed Wycombe Air Centre for a cadet scheme for a former employer - I was very impressed with the organisation, prices, quality of the aeroplanes, and quality and attitude of the instructors.

I did a less thorough assessment of Airways Aero Association - a little more expensive, and a little less well organised - but still basically very good, and very well spoken of. Certainly a better choice of aeroplanes.

Basically, you're unlikely to regret either - so visit them, get a trial lesson with each, pick a simple inexpensive aeroplane to learn on - and decide which one you prefer. It's a choice of good or good.

G

[smarthawke]

As others have said - visit both and have a good look round including the aircraft themselves. Even have a trial lesson in each to ensure you make the choice to suit you.

Airways Flying Club use Piper Warriors but also have a new Tecnam P2002 on the fleet which I think you'll find is a very similar price to WAC Cessna 152s.

Costings can be deceptive. As well as the hourly flying rate (including or not the VAT) ask if there are landing fees, fuel surcharges, briefing costs, ground and flying exam costs as well as membership charges. Sometimes the advertised price isn't the invoiced price...

Edit to say - one other thing to check is how the hourly rate is calculated. Some use engine running time others use 'brakes on to brakes off' - ie you pay for what you actually log in your log book.

[wsmempson]

If you do a search on this site, this topic seems to come up pretty regularly and, having posted at length on this in the past, I am going to simply re-paste what I put before.

"I learnt with Airways Flying Club (or BAFC as it was then known) in 2003/4 and, having visited various schools on nearby fields and taken trial lessons with at least two others (including one national chain that seems to feature lots of hour building teenaged boys in white shirts and gold braid) and came to the conclusion that BAFC were the best outfit around, by some degree.

The fleet of Warriors is immaculately kept by the in-house engineering department (I can't remember any of the fleet going 'tech' during my course) and the instructors are either career instructors or semi-retired airline pilots trying to give something back to GA.

Dick Thurbin was the instructor taught me, and his common-sense, relaxed style got me through the course very effectively indeed. I'm sure the other instructors are great, but I took the decision early on in my course to try to stick with one individual - for the sake of consistency.

At Booker, there is a full tower, rather than information or radio - so the r/t is more of a challenge; this is great preparation for the future as, if you can cope here, you'll cope anywhere!

My advice to anyone about to embark on a PPL is to do the rounds of the various schools and have a good look around before committing yourself to one school - take a trial lesson at the final three you're considering, as this will be money well spent in the long run.

I like White Waltham very much (I'm a member down there and enjoy the bar and club atmosphere a great deal) but reckon, as a school, BAFC are still the 'gold standard'. "


PM me if you want further advice or info.

(BY THE WAY, I'M NOT ASSOCIATED WITH AFC OR ON COMMISSION...!)

[JOE-FBS]

I did some post PPL training and hire at WAC rather than (B)AFC, all very nice but f' expensive.

You could try Halton, just south of Aylesbury, (declaration, it's where I did my PPL and IMCR and am still a very happy member. Tail dragger and aero's also available), even without a military connection.

If you are at the north end of Buckinghamshire (a long thin county for those not familiar), Turweston is not far over the border!

[mixture]

Similar to others here, my initial training was done at what was then BAFC.

A few thoughts :
- Nice airfield with grass and tarmac and proper R/T
- Tight apron, so you have to learn quickly how to manoever properly and get to know know your wingspan as there is pretty much no room for error of more than a couple of centimetres when parking alongside the other aircraft. But a good thing for a student !
- Does get very busy in the summer (egg beaters, gliders, SEPs and twins). But busy is a good thing to experience as a student.
- Non standard circuit (strict noise abatement, plus modifications due to gliders). However, again I'd say this is a plus in terms of your experience for later life.
- Well maintained fleet at BAFC with good availability.
- Fairly expensive, but you get what you pay for in this life.
- Not all instructors are full time career instructors, mine was part time and had another job on the side.
- Beware of John the CFI. Nice chap but very "intense" and you certainly don't want to get on the wrong side of him.


Don't learn in a high wing (visibility is better low wing, especially when you're training and bashing circuits etc.). Also avoid the trauma-hawks.

[BroomstickPilot]

Other possibilities

Hi Petrolhead88,

Both of the organisastions at Booker had very good names over many years. However, both have changed hands in recent times. So I suggest you try to find opinions from people who have trained under the current owners before you come to any firm conclusions.

I note that you are resident in Bucks, in which case I would suggest that you also consider the Firecrest club at Elstree and The Pilot Centre at Denham.

I must confess, I have not heard anything about Firecrest for some time, so I don't even know for certain whether they are still operating. If they are, then I think they could be a good choice. I went to visit them with a view to flying there some years ago and was favourably impressed.

The Pilot Centre at Denham I can vouch for as I flew there regularly a couple of years ago and so far as I know they are still operating, still in the same ownership and still as good as ever.

West London Aeroclub at White Waltham too has always had a very good name over many years, although it is apt to be expensive and might be a bit further away for you to travel to.

As a final piece of advice, if you have the choice of one club close to home that 'seems O.K.' and another that seems excellent, but requires a one-hour car drive, go to the latter in preference to the former. It's the quality of the club that matters most; you can live with the car journey.

Regards,

BroomstickPilot.

[Sillert,V.I.]

Yet another post from someone who got their PPL from BAFC many moons ago. The club may have changed hands but the airfield remains a great place to train for the reasons given by mixture.

In those days they had a number of retired BA Captains on the instructor rota and those guys were absolutely priceless. Learning with them was a totally different experience to being instructed by the ATPL wannabes whose primary interest was in building enough hours to move on to the next stage of their career. I'd say that choosing your instructor is just as important as choosing your training organisation.

Can't agree with the comments about the PA-38 though. In those days BAFC used them for all primary training & IMO they are perfectly suited for that role. The Warrior is too easy to fly & could allow you to develop sloppy habits that might bite you later on. Sadly the BAFC tomahawks felt worn out 25 years ago & with the wing life limitation there can't be many good ones left now anywhere.

[wsmempson]

No traumahawks left at Wycombe at either of the flying clubs. There is a nice one, resident at the field, but in private hands.

I did my 1st 4 or 5 hours in a Tomahawk, until someone pointed out that if I sat my skills test with the CFI (neither of us are small, but neither of us are fat) we couldn't load enough fuel for the test and remain within W&B. Topical, given W&B, t-tails and Wycombe....

[mixture]

could allow you to develop sloppy habits that might bite you later on

Not wishing to drag this thread off-topic, but surely that's why one goes to learn at a good school with experienced instructors, not one staffed by p2f atpl wannabes and neither one of those cheap and cheerful courses on the other side of the pond and then come back unable to cope with the demands of UK/EU airspace. So perhaps you would care to elaborate ?

You've got a minimum of 45 hours, minimum 25 dual IIRC .... surely that gives a good instructor more than enough time to hammer the good habits into the thick skulls of his/her students ? That's one of the things I liked about BAFC, there was an absolute focus on developing the professionalism of the student, for example my instructor was keen to spend more time on key aspects of instrument work than was strictly needed for the basic PPL syllabus because of the importance of being proficient in the use of navaids, so I learnt to posfix whilst hand-flying an orbit to +-max 100/0ft (i.e CPL SEP altitude holding) whilst remaining strictly VFR (lookout etc.) For me, yes, spending less than 5 hours in a traumahawk was useful, in terms of SSAT ... but other than that, the Warrior was much nicer to fly, especially when the focus moved from skills to nav. I wouldn't dream of doing a QXC in a traumahawk !

[Genghis the Engineer]

Personally I think that both the Tomahawk and the C152 are excellent initial training aeroplanes - simple to manage, good view out, reasonably inexpensive, and just difficult enough to fly well that they tend to teach good habits.

As a "grown up" I'd rather fly a PA28 for touring, and in fact currently use a Grumman AA5 for the purpose, which I like even more. But, those are easily and inexpensively converted to after doing your PPL on something relatively simple, learning on them strikes me as unnecessarily expensive.

Also look at the Microlight School at Wycombe as well, who have a good reputation and probably nicer aeroplanes.

G

[custardpsc]

re wycombe

I have done some training at both wycombe (wac) and denham (pilot centre). I can add nothing to Broomsticks excellent post other than I now fly regularly at Denham for all of those reasons.

[mixture]

On the subject of habits, I recently stumbled accross this old thread from 2004 entitled "when you almost became 'another statistic'" whilst searching for something completely unrelated. Some interesting tales in there, but I don't think learning to fly in a trauma instead of its bigger brother would have avoided any of those incidents. But I digress, I think I've OT'd this thread enough, I'm out of here.... happy flying to the OP, wherever he decides to learn and whatever he decides to learn in !

[Sillert,V.I.]

Originally Posted by mixture

Not wishing to drag this thread off-topic, but surely that's why one goes to learn at a good school with experienced instructors, not one staffed by p2f atpl wannabes and neither one of those cheap and cheerful courses on the other side of the pond and then come back unable to cope with the demands of UK/EU airspace. So perhaps you would care to elaborate ?

You've got a minimum of 45 hours, minimum 25 dual IIRC .... surely that gives a good instructor more than enough time to hammer the good habits into the thick skulls of his/her students ? That's one of the things I liked about BAFC, there was an absolute focus on developing the professionalism of the student, for example my instructor was keen to spend more time on key aspects of instrument work than was strictly needed for the basic PPL syllabus because of the importance of being proficient in the use of navaids, so I learnt to posfix whilst hand-flying an orbit to +-max 100/0ft (i.e CPL SEP altitude holding) whilst remaining strictly VFR (lookout etc.) For me, yes, spending less than 5 hours in a traumahawk was useful, in terms of SSAT ... but other than that, the Warrior was much nicer to fly, especially when the focus moved from skills to nav. I wouldn't dream of doing a QXC in a traumahawk !

Couldn't agree more with your comment about BAFC professionalism. Worth doing a PPL at Airways for that alone - assuming things haven't changed in 25 years!

I did my QXC in a PA38 & also did my night rating & most of my IMCr on the type - the exception was that at that time BAFC had only one aircraft with a glideslope receiver (an ancient cherokee) & we needed to use that for the ILS training part of the IMCr.

I think the tomahawk is the better trainer in part because it is inherently less stable than the warrior; you'll develop good stick & rudder skills & also learn to respond quickly to small changes in the aircraft's attitude. You'll learn to multitask because the airplane always has to be flown - you'll develop a good scan in IMC out of necessity. It's also great for demonstrating how aircraft can bite; I still remember vividly the day we climbed up to 5000' & my instructor told me to stall it & give it a bootful of left rudder just as the nose started to drop.

However, IMO the warrior is without doubt a much more comfortable airplane to fly.

[jon fuller]

Quote by Ghengis:

"Also look at the Microlight School at Wycombe as well, who have a good reputation and probably nicer aeroplanes."

Indeed, i've just completed my NPPL with the light sport flying club at Wycombe in an Evektor EV97 Eurostar

Steve Pike (CFI/Examiner) runs a great school/club. The aircraft are superbly maintained (there are 4 EV97's in total within the LSFC, with great value shares available).
Super friendly, very safe & sensible, and all other details mentioned above re WAP.

Another consideration is the huge cost difference between flying the larger stuff (PA28's etc) and a modern microlight, so if you're just looking at pleasure VFR flying, the NPPL is worth a thought.

One of the LSFC EV97's..if two seats will suffice, they're great fun.



JF

[Si76]

Haven't started proper lessons as such but did a trial flight at AFC on Wednesday and the instructor Dick Thurbin was absolutely excellent: put me at ease, explained things in a nice easy-to-understand way, and actually got me working from the off.
He controlled the rudder whilst I had the control column and that included the take-off. Thus I was able to experience what it's like to actually fly the aircraft. He's been doing this for years and thus lives and breathes flying - he looks like he thoroughly enjoys teaching people how to fly.

Assuming I'm able to afford the lessons, I'll definately fly with AFC.

Hope this helps.

[smarthawke]

As I mentioned Airways Flying Club isn't all Warrior despite the Tomahawks being retired a few years back.

The Tecnam P2002JF is a fully certified machine and is proving a very popular addition to AFC's fleet. It makes an ideal trainer given a bit of rudder is needed and it can drop a wing in the stall. All very similar to the Tomahawk and many very experienced instructors feel the PA38 made a better trainer than the Warrior.

It's also great fun to fly once the training has finished...

Si76 - I'll make sure Dick knows he has another satisfied customer!

[fullyestablished]

Mixture:

"- Beware of John the CFI. Nice chap but very "intense" and you certainly don't want to get on the wrong side of him. "

That may be an outside perception of John, but in fact he is an outstanding educator and a gifted aviator. Every time I fly with John I learn something and he never insists upon something without real justification. His rules are a shortcut to enhanced performance, to keep you safer, more accurate and more confident.

John as CFI is one of Airways Flying Club's greatest assets. Learn with him and you are making a great investment in your safety and enjoyment of flying.

[mixture]

fullyestablished,

Thanks for posting your impressions, always good to hear other's points of view.

But my training was a while back, so perhaps he's mellowed a bit.