Can I afford to buy an aircraft?

[Maoraigh1]

£70K and £600 per month seem out of proportion. As a group member in a Jodel group. I payed £620 for 9.5 hours in April. All day VFR of course. Not including landaway landing fees. That is the total for flying per hour, and a monthly charge. A share would be £2200.

[IO540]

£600/month is £7200/year.

Take off a £3k Annual, £3k insurance, doesn't leave you much, but if the OP meant £600/m for flying costs that should buy you about 40hrs/year.

[Rod1]

A typical 180hp 4 seat IFR capable spam can annual cost will be very close to;

Maintenance £5k
Insurance £2k
Parking – depends on area but London say £3.5k
Fuel £70 per hour (expect this to increase to around £130 ish over 5 years)

That is way outside your £600 a month, but a 1970’s machine in reasonable condition will cost around £35 - £45k. All you have to do is reallocate your funding. Assume your first year maintenance will be double the above if you are moving to a new engineering co.

Rod1

[Justiciar]

At the risk of this descending into a Permit v Certified debate again, my Pioneer with a hull value of circa £50k costs £1600 per annum in insurance; cost is very much related to hull value. Without knowing how serious the IFR bit is it is difficult to advise further. As a general though rather obvious comment, a 180 hp costing 35 to 40 litres per hur in Avgas is or could restrict the available flying whereas something smaller and frugal will not only burn less but is likely to be cheaper in most other areas as well, except possibly hangerage.

A solution raised before is to buy into a decent group for your four seat IFR stuff and also to buy at the other end of the scale so as to maximise time in the air. If you don't want to buy an old(er) home build then look at those aircraft which were factory built but are now on a permit, eg older cubs, Jodels, Luscombes etc.

[IO540]

expect this to increase to around £130 ish over 5 years

I now know what you do for a living: a financial adviser

I want your email address, because I've got a couple of hundred quid which I want to invest for a ~100% return over 5 years.

On the "IFR" bit, you need legit IFR capability only if flying on the UK IMCR or the full IR. For "informal enroute IFR" you don't need IFR certification; you just need proper equipment and instrument flight capability personally.

[selim]

Thanks guys, it is looking as though my finances are limiting to a group share.

In response to the IR question it is quite relevant, I have a fair deal of IFR flying under my belt and feel comfortable in those conditions. My job requires me to visit clients around Europe and I would like to fly to these clients myself without too much weather restriction so VFR wont always cut it hence the requirements for a decent instrument equipped aircraft. Of course, in reality I have no idea how much of this I actually will do and could quite possibly end up doing weekend tours of the Isle of Wight VFR!

All the responses so far have been most helpful and informative for which I am grateful. Having never owned an aircraft or seriously considered one before i genuinely had no idea of the costs involved although a general appreciation of the variable costs and how scary they can get.

[Kolossi]

Thanks for the reply on 100ll IO540 - so am I right in thinking you are saying any possible future disappearance of 100ll should not play any part in the decision making for purchase of an aircraft/share?

(anyone else please feel free to chip it too! )

[IO540]

Thanks for the reply on 100ll IO540 - so am I right in thinking you are saying any possible future disappearance of 100ll should not play any part in the decision making for purchase of an aircraft/share?

I think I am basically saying that if you can avoid 100L then do so, but the options for doing so are pretty limited and I would not touch any of them with a bargepole if I was going to do "real" flying, in a plane which I bought with my own money.

If OTOH I was running a flying school, and got some kind of "pay by the airborne hour" deal out of Diamond, then it would make a lot of sense because I would be protected from the diesel engine downtime which has brought many flying schools practically down to their knees.

Especially as training is exempt from the diesel fuel tax which is now payable on private flights and which has crippled the economic case for diesel retrofits.

[German guy]

I'm not so sure about shares - I've heard great, but also horrific stories about them. Much more of the latter, though. Even when (Ex-) close friends start a fractional ownership it is not so seldom that they end up at court. My impression is also that it is considerably more difficult to sell a share than a complete aircraft.

Maybe fractional ownerships run better in the UK than they do in Germany, but over here it is very difficult to a.) find an existing share which you could join or b.) find buddies with whom you could start an ownership. Therefore the often only option is to c.) seek for an fractional ownership via the internet what appears to me to be the riskiest option.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't go this route, but I recommend to very carefully asses this option. Another thing you might want to take into consideration is if you really need a 182 or if something more economical like a 172 or Warrior wouldn't also fulfil your typical 95% use case!?

I also have to say, that I am currently renting Cessnas and microlight trikes in two different clubs and that I really have enough of renting - it is always difficult to take the planes away for a weekend, I always have to plan weeks in advance, I always have to fly daily minimum hours and I quite often notice that something is broken during pre-flight.

No matter if it makes "sense" to own from the financial point of view - as soon as I find the aircraft which am looking for, I'm going to purchase it. Alone. Without any partners.
What I might however consider is to rent it to pilots who I personally know.

Cheers,

Oliver

[wd413]

Owning a light aircraft is really no different to owning a car.
How many people would contemplate sharing their car with a group of others?
Very few I would suggest.
Same goes for an aircraft.
I own a 6-year-old Tecnam Sierra and the annual running costs are only marginally more than operating my elderly Mercedes.
Might be different for a top end machine or an elderly spam can but the new generation of LSA's that run on mogas are a different proposition.
They're also much more fun to fly.

[AN2 Driver]

Thanks guys, it is looking as though my finances are limiting to a group share.

why? with your budget, as I told you before, there are plenty of IFR airplanes around, unless you really want the new and shiny. and especcially after what you say, business trips and weekends away, I'd do the utmost to have my OWN plane as opposed to fighting for every flight within a share. Unless you are real good friends who wish to go fly together or plan trips that way, I'd try to go on your own, with possible renters if that is allowed.

Just have a look on the Internet, there are some sites like Planecheck or Avbuyer, where you can have a browse and see what's there. Alone on planecheck I found 2 IFR Arrows in the UK the last time I wrote to you, both significantly under your budget.

@Oliver

I hear you.

Even when (Ex-) close friends start a fractional ownership it is not so seldom that they end up at court. My impression is also that it is considerably more difficult to sell a share than a complete aircraft.

Both, yes. To bring up the analogy, just think for a moment what kind of aggravation only shared houses bring, at least in our part of the world... or the typical rabbitcage style housing estates. The courts are full of fighting neighbours and ex shareholders in all sorts of enterprises.

Frankly, for me it became very clear very soon: Either I can afford to own alone or I'll refrain. Sure glad I didn't.

No matter if it makes "sense" to own from the financial point of view - as soon as I find the aircraft which am looking for, I'm going to purchase it. Alone. Without any partners.

One only lives once. And I can see enough grumps around who will draw the line at the fall of life and muse over missed chances. Financial sense is one of the killer arguments of such people, and look where it got them. Of course, one has to be prudent and has to be able to afford any sport or recreation one chooses, but if so, there are not many viable reasons to hide under a bench while those faint of heart hide under the benches.

What I might however consider is to rent it to pilots who I personally know.

that is what I do and it works out well.

Best regards
AN2 driver

[IO540]

It is very true that many groups are falling apart; possibly the majority depending on how you define "falling apart".

Of the groups I am familiar with, one which is working well is one around a C152 where one man is in charge of all admin stuff, and the other members (about 25 of them!) get obviously very cheap flying. They lease the plane in so no cost suprises. They used to own a C150 and that worked well too because with 25 members money was not a problem. Their Annual costs were eye watering, about 2x to 3x what I pay on my TB20, but with 25 members who cares? But that group works because they have a niche: very cheap flying, and everybody knows they cannot do any more than a little bimble, not too far away. A lot of pilots are happy with that.

If you want to have 2-week holidays with the plane, you need a very small group made up of understanding people.

One other group I know that's working well is 2 people around an IFR plane. Both have enough money and do similar flying. Such groups are very hard to set up though because finding people with money and competence and the desire for full IFR capability is very hard. Almost everybody with an IR already owns his own plane; it's a bit pointless doing an IR if you cannot afford to buy a plane afterwards.

However, a group is simply the best option for somebody who cannot afford to buy 100%.

Renting is a very poor option; you either fly junk, or you pay loads of money per hour which is a disincentive to currency and usually means no long trips away.

[Genghis the Engineer]

IO540, if I recall correctly, you are in the UK? UK law limits syndicates to 20 members.

G

[IO540]

Only on a (what was) Private CofA G-reg aircraft. Min share is 5%.

On (what was) a Transport CofA aircraft, there is no limit on syndicate size, and (by extension) you can have equity down to zero (i.e. pure rental). That's what flying schools do, for example.

Today, the line lies according to the actual maintenance regime.

The above is for G-reg.

[BackPacker]

What I might however consider is to rent it to pilots who I personally know.

I thought that if you owned a plane yourself, or as a (<20) group, you could keep the plane on a lower maintenance regime compared to the situation where the plane was rented out (either wet or dry) and/or used for flight training. Is this true, and if so, do the higher income from renting the plane to non-owners offset those higher maintenance costs?

Or is this whole point moot now with EASA CAMO and such?

And what about insurance requirements? I've heard insurance policies that specifically name the pilots that can fly the plane. Are they significantly cheaper than "anonymous" (for lack of a better word) policies?

[Maoraigh1]

"how many people would contemplate sharing their car with a group of others?"
How many people keep their car miles away from their house? How many people keep their plane at their house?
How many people use their car every day? How many people use their plane every day?
How many people just hop in their plane, without checking wx and notams, booking out with ATC and going through security?
Has anyone ever had an aircraft annual done for the same cost as a car service + MOT?
You don't want a group of bar buddies. You want people who will usually use it at different times, and can't afford to use it too much. I'm the second longest time in our group, at over 21 years.

[IO540]

If it is a G-reg, it cannot be rented out unless maintained accordingly.

An N-reg maintained to the standard FAR Part 91 can be rented out.

Yes, you need the right insurance. Named pilots, up to a point, will be cheaper than "club use" which is for open rental. It is pricey; my TB20 was £6k for club use and is now £2.9k (one named pilot, 1k+ hrs, CPL/IR). The extra insurance cost makes it hardly worth renting out - unless you open it up to every tom dick and harry with a PPL and then your precious plane will gradually get wrecked. I went down that road because I was dim back then and got conned by a crooked instructor/CFI. He vanished not long afterwards (for other more interesting reasons).

There are also tax angles. The owner/operator has strict liability for 3rd party damage (UK Civil Aviation Act) so you will want to have the plane in a limited company to protect yourself from some renter landing in a convent / school / LIDL / etc. This in turn gives rise to BIK issues. HMRC hate people who set up businesses around activities they like as a hobby. They run a policy of hitting them with investigations just for a laugh; a half clever inspector can run dozens of these concurrently and can collect many times his salary because most people will give him £10k rather than go to the Commissioners.

Been there, done that, got the t-shirt

My advice is: don't bother. If you can afford sole ownership, nothing gets even close to the privileges. I could not have done the great trips I have done if I didn't own outright. Otherwise, try to dig out a few mates with appropriate funding, attitudes, etc and set up a group.

Or, of course, you can do what most PPLs do which is to cost share as many flights as you can. The "seat sharing" websites are primarily aimed at cost sharing but you cannot call it that because cost sharing cannot be openly advertised. I don't cost share myself (illegal in an N-reg in UK airspace) but everybody else seems to in a G-reg.

The big secret in long term flying is to pitch things at a level which you are very comfortable with financially. Worry is very corrosive - as is a lack of family support, etc.

[BackPacker]

If it is a G-reg, it cannot be rented out unless maintained accordingly.

Okay, so the insurance is significantly more expensive - ~3000 pounds per year according to this one sample. That's a significant amount of money to get back in rental fees.

But what do the increased maintenance requirements mean, practically speaking? And I understand you can do certain things (up to a 50-hour check?) as an owner yourself. Does that still apply?

[IO540]

My insurance figures apply to a 195k hull value; yours may be lower.

Re maintenance, I am not up to date, but IIRC you cannot do own maintenance so your 50hr checks are expensive, etc. There are other details I think.

Casual renting doesn't pay.