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"Contact one", any one else say that?

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"Contact one", any one else say that?

Old 12th Apr 2011, 12:07
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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I think that a reminder to all on the frequency (except perhaps at an ATC field) that you are commencing the take off run, can only be a good thing, Nothing naff about it at all.
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Old 12th Apr 2011, 12:12
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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and clearly the term is in common use
Only in one country, as far as this discussion shows, and even there not at all aerodromes.
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Old 12th Apr 2011, 12:23
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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Having said that is it really confusing? The call does not originate from a ground operator, G-XX contact 1 ahead' originates from another aircraft so, surely cannot be misconstrued as meaning 'aircraft ahead of me contact (call) the 1 ahead of you'
But it could also mean (to the unfamiliar, or student / inexperienced)

"I want to contact the one ahead"
"I want the one ahead to contact me"

Sounds ambiguous to me not to use at all! I also say "visual with number 1 / number 2" but only when I can see the other aircraft in the circuit ahead of me ; or "visual with traffic on short / "X" mile final"
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Old 12th Apr 2011, 12:28
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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You shouldn't be given the clearance until it's safe, or at least will be safe when you get airborne.
That's what they've always told me. ATC will apply the necessary wait time and will give you your take-off clearance only when it's safe to go.

However, in practice, that's not how it works at my home base. As soon as the 737 is no longer in contact with the runway, we get our take-off clearance, with the addition 'regarding the wake turbulence of the 737 that just departed'. So wake turbulence separation is left to our own discretion.

And to be honest, I like that. There are regular occasions where I'm able to lift off sooner, and establish an initial angle of climb that keeps me well above the 737s take-off path. And if I make an early turn, there's no chance for me to get caught in his wake turbulence. So in those situations it wouldn't make sense to wait, say, three minutes.
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Old 12th Apr 2011, 12:50
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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A bit like "don't mention the war".

When referring to visual contact, don't mention contact.

CAP 413: If no visual contact is gained, a missed approach ...


Yes, I do know about that "take-off" in Tenerife.
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Old 12th Apr 2011, 12:54
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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'ROLLING'


I was never taught at an A/G field one should do anything other than check all is clear then call 'Ready for Departure' and then take-off. You should not need to say 'taking-off' or 'rolling' because you checked the final approach path right?

Reference to CAP 413 says for A/G one may call 'Airborne' Which to be frank if I'm coming down final is far more useful than 'rolling' which just tells me what I already know, someone is on the runway ahead and therefore it is a wasted call, it doesn't matter to me if they are rolling or not, what matters is they are not still on the runway when I get there, confirmed by 'airborne'.
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Old 12th Apr 2011, 13:19
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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I went to a busy fly-in at the weekend. As I turned base, an aircraft on final called G-.... Final, contact one on. As I turned final behind him I called G-...., Final, contact one on, one ahead. Letting the guy in front of me know that I was aware of him as well as the aircraft that had touched down. There's nothing ambiguous about it. It's good airmanship, has worked well for many years and is certainly standard procedure when A/g or safetycom is in use. I don't think it matters much whether you say Contact or Visual. You'll still be understood.

Very often an air/ground operator will only give you airfield information and it's up to the pilots to sort themselves out. That's where the value of such calls lies. Anyone who's confused by them needs help.
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Old 12th Apr 2011, 13:30
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Flyingmac View Post
I went to a busy fly-in at the weekend. As I turned base, an aircraft on final called G-.... Final, contact one on. As I turned final behind him I called G-...., Final, contact one on, one ahead. Letting the guy in front of me know that I was aware of him as well as the aircraft that had touched down. There's nothing ambiguous about it. It's good airmanship, has worked well for many years and is certainly standard procedure when A/g or safetycom is in use. I don't think it matters much whether you say Contact or Visual. You'll still be understood.

Very often an air/ground operator will only give you airfield information and it's up to the pilots to sort themselves out. That's where the value of such calls lies. Anyone who's confused by them needs help.
Pretty much what I'd do, and have done for years, also.

There may be mileage in using "visual" instead of "contact", to reduce confusion - but since many people have been using "contact" for decades, I don't honestly think the confusion issue is real.

A bit like saying you'll be arriving somewhere at "minute 45" which is how I learned it - reading CAP 413 the other day, I saw that it is now "time 45", meaning the same thing? Not sure when that changed, but I've still been using (and hearing others using) "minute 45" and never had a complaint or signs of confusion.

G
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Old 12th Apr 2011, 14:13
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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I was never taught at an A/G field one should do anything other than check all is clear then call 'Ready for Departure' and then take-off. You should not need to say 'taking-off' or 'rolling' because you checked the final approach path right?
Reference to CAP 413 says for A/G one may call 'Airborne' Which to be frank if I'm coming down final is far more useful than 'rolling' which just tells me what I already know, someone is on the runway ahead and therefore it is a wasted call, it doesn't matter to me if they are rolling or not, what matters is they are not still on the runway when I get there, confirmed by 'airborne'.
If you happen to visit Bagby we'd appreciate a 'Lining up 24 for immediate' call, as you can't be seen by anyone leaving the parking area to cross the runway to the taxyway. Then there's the small matter of aircraft using 24 for take-off and 06 for landing due to the slope.

I might just add that your 'Ready for departure' call is meaningless to an A/G operator. That's assuming the radio is manned. So 'lining up' and 'rolling' calls would be nice. Better than bent metal.
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Old 12th Apr 2011, 15:58
  #50 (permalink)  
 
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How about "Eyeballs Rolling" ...... "Eyeballs Locked-on" which was the response to traffic information given to one aircraft!
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Old 12th Apr 2011, 16:12
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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You should not need to say 'taking-off' or 'rolling' because you checked the final approach path right?
I think a 'Rolling' or 'Taking Off' call is useful. If I am making a crosswind join at the time that another aircraft is taking off there could be a potential conflict as I would be passing directly overhead the inactive threshold at circuit height. I would want to know if the aircraft on the runway is about to start its takeoff roll or whether it will hold its position until I am clear and have turned downwind.

Lining up and starting the take off roll are two separate things. I know that ideally at an A/G field you will only line up when you are ready for take off and it is clear to do so i.e. nothing on final, however ive had a couple of occasions when I have already lined up and then I hear over the radio that an a/c is joining crosswind, in which case I would hold until it has passed. In this case, I advise over the radio that I will hold until the other aircraft has passed, then radio 'rolling/taking off' when I start the run.

At the end of the day at an A/G field, we the pilots are responsible for separation, so surely the more precise the information about our intentions the better. The 'Taking Off' phrase is specified in CAP413 after all.

Calling airbourne is useful too I agree e.g. G-CD airborne runway 21, climbing through xxxx for xxxx on xxxx, heading xxx.
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Old 12th Apr 2011, 16:27
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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Sounds like it was a Space cadet... something like the person who wrote:

"As military traffic is on 243, why should they give a f**K?"
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Old 12th Apr 2011, 16:53
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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This thread seems fixated on "contact one".
I think thats missing the point.
When joining a busy airfield at say mid day for a fly in it is not unusual to have 10 or more aircraft in the circuit.
At that point you don't want ums and arrhs in the transmitions or "hello fred how are you today".
So it was common practice to say " I am in visual contact with 1 (or 2/3 ) ahead when joining.This told the ATC that you had seen the other aircraft and you will take your place in the que and not cut anyone up. The reply was "you are number 2 (or 3/4)" and confirm your place in the que.

The point was if the controller realised you hadn't seen ALL the aircraft in front he would automatically reply with " you are no. 6" .

The whole thing was quite condensed, "contact one (or 2,3,4,5,6,) ahead"became the shorthand version.
It was implicit in this message that you had seen the aircraft ahead and fit in without cutting anyone up.

I still use it, as a strip flyer that frequents fly ins that are often A/G only it lets people know you have seen them and they can consentrate on landing without having to wonder if the bloke behind is going up their chuff.
I think its a great shame its now a wonder to so many people and am somewhat supprised by this thread.
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Old 12th Apr 2011, 17:01
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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I was never taught at an A/G field one should do anything other than check all is clear then call 'Ready for Departure' and then take-off. You should not need to say 'taking-off' or 'rolling' because you checked the final approach path right?
Reference to CAP 413 says for A/G one may call 'Airborne' Which to be frank if I'm coming down final is far more useful than 'rolling' which just tells me what I already know, someone is on the runway ahead and therefore it is a wasted call, it doesn't matter to me if they are rolling or not, what matters is they are not still on the runway when I get there, confirmed by 'airborne'.


If you happen to visit Bagby we'd appreciate a 'Lining up 24 for immediate' call, as you can't be seen by anyone leaving the parking area to cross the runway to the taxyway. Then there's the small matter of aircraft using 24 for take-off and 06 for landing due to the slope.

I might just add that your 'Ready for departure' call is meaningless to an A/G operator. That's assuming the radio is manned. So 'lining up' and 'rolling' calls would be nice. Better than bent metal.
Absolutely spot on FM
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Old 12th Apr 2011, 17:50
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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I might just add that your 'Ready for departure' call is meaningless to an A/G operator.
Refer CAP 413, section 5.4.3 for use of 'Ready for departure' at an A/G field.

It's not meaningless at all even if it is not manned, if I'm on final at an A/G field and someone else calls 'ready for departure' that indicates clearly to me they have finished their take-off/power checks and intend to line up if the approach is clear. I'll be watching them and hopefully they will have seen me. It's a bit late when they say 'lining up', but if in doubt after a 'ready for departure' one can repeat 'G-XX Final' to remind them you are there. (Surely these things happen to others don't they?)


It's interesting discussing the topic, certainly seems that either, one can be use to operations at a particular field and assume the RT is the 'norm' without that being the case.

Or perhaps reading a lot of the replies it is the case at a lot of A/G fields and it is only those that rarely visit them that don't get 'contact 1 ahead' and then say 'rolling' when they take-off as they haven't really understood the environment much and perhaps feel they should warn everyone. (Just a little humor)
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Old 12th Apr 2011, 18:15
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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We did the debate on rolling only very recently but by all means do it again.
I seem to recall that it was the venerable Mr Heathrow Director, or possibly one of his equally venerable colleagues, who, in response to the call by a pilot "rolling" retorted with the phrase "Roger, report inverted".

Always a good one, but ultimately, standard phraseology is paramount, Stand up - Speak Up - Shut up.
Stick to that and you won't go far wrong wherever you go.
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Old 12th Apr 2011, 18:59
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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I seem to recall that it was the venerable Mr Heathrow Director, or possibly one of his equally venerable colleagues, who, in response to the call by a pilot "rolling" retorted with the phrase "Roger, report inverted".
This can happen the other way around too. On downwind, for instance:

"G-ABCD make one 360 over left for separation, report back on downwind"
"One 360 over left, G-CD"
...half a second later...
"Back on downwind, G-CD"

How fast does your aircraft snaproll?
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Old 12th Apr 2011, 20:22
  #58 (permalink)  
Final 3 Greens
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Torque Tonight

Read it yourself
If you knew CAP413, you would know that phrase is not in there.

So why do you think it is in regular use in the airways?

Heathrow Director

Sense of humour failure, or Victor Meldrew tendencies developing with the hair growing out of the nose and ears?

Danscowpie

But whose standard phraseology?
 
Old 12th Apr 2011, 23:25
  #59 (permalink)  
 
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ultimately, standard phraseology is paramount, Stand up - Speak Up - Shut up.
Couldn't agree less. The old saw is "aviate, navigate, communicate". When (if) you must communicate, stick to standard phraseology, but, if there is a *need* to communicate, and you either don't know, or there isn't standard phraseology to do so, just get the message out in the most concise way you can think of.

There's more to flying than being word perfect on your R/T. Not to suggest one should be lax, but it is a long way down the scale from paramount. I'm currently minded of taxiing in from a flight listening to a guy at the pumps deliver a perfectly phrased spiel - then taxi forward into an iron re-bar which was holding up the red and white striped "don't go here" tape..
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Old 13th Apr 2011, 08:13
  #60 (permalink)  
 
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I might just add that your 'Ready for departure' call is meaningless to an A/G operator.
Refer CAP 413, section 5.4.3 for use of 'Ready for departure' at an A/G field.

It's not meaningless at all even if it is not manned, if I'm on final at an A/G field and someone else calls 'ready for departure' that indicates clearly to me they have finished their take-off/power checks and intend to line up if the approach is clear. I'll be watching them and hopefully they will have seen me. It's a bit late when they say 'lining up', but if in doubt after a 'ready for departure' one can repeat 'G-XX Final' to remind them you are there. (Surely these things happen to others don't they
?)

I occasionally get 'Ready for departure' calls. My reply is usually 'Roger'.
I might pass them the wind speed and direction. I might pass them traffic information if I think it affects them. I'll often see them sit for several minutes waiting for an instruction that they're never going to get.
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