Flight Planning for an IMC Flight

[flybymike]

You're not going to be more accurate by laying in a waypoint over a moving map. Get the correct lat/long for the waypoint, and you're dead-nuts accurate.

Scroll a cursor around and drop it where you *think* the waypoint is, and you're not nearly as accurate.

The waypoint is just a blob on the magenta line. For en route navigation it doesn't matter a toss if it is a millimetre or two away from a theoretical position which might (entirely arbitrarily) have been picked with lat/long co-ordinates, and it certainly does not need to be "dead nuts" accurate . Indeed earlier in the thread you were extolling the virtues of not flying directly via a waypoint. I submit it is far safer to use the cursor for enroute waypoint selection, although I endorse Pace's assertion that the art of lat/long should not be forgotten.

[Pace]

Guppy

I too had to land mid Saudi in a ferry jet I was bringing back. 2000 metres dust! on landing the wind increased dramatically the palm trees bent double and visibility dropped to 100 metres in a sand storm.
A figure draped in white appeared through the gloom with his faced wrapped up against the cutting sand. Getting out of the Citation was a painful sandblasting experience. PM me an E mail address and I will send you a picture

Sir Niall Dementia

Cant open your link but presume its some tragic event of a pilot using a home made approach?
I did say arrival or departure which doesnt mean a landing procedure built using GPS.
It could be points layed out to take you around some hills (turbulence) and to line you up facing the right direction for a particular runway nothing wrong with that as long as in IMC you stay above the MSA.

I have used home made GPS procedures for landing although always following a published NDB/DME procedure etc. The key is to never trust one aid alone.

A good friend took up the hold 10 miles short of where he should have been on an NDB procedure with the needle following a thunderstorm

Pace

[SNS3Guppy]

The waypoint is just a blob on the magenta line.

I suppose if that's the mentality you choose to take in navigation, then it's probably good enough for you.

It's definitely not good enough for me.

I too had to land mid Saudi in a ferry jet I was bringing back. 2000 metres dust! on landing the wind increased dramatically the palm trees bent double and visibility dropped to 100 metres in a sand storm.

When I lived and worked in Saudi Arabia, I had more approaches to minimums than I'd had in a very long time. Sand, and weather. Lots of good weather, too, but surprisingly one does do a lot of instrument work there (or at least, we did).

Cant open your link but presume its some tragic event of a pilot using a home made approach?

I read through it; it's a very thorough mishap report involving a helicopter operation in Ireland. The crew was using a locally-developed approach by GPS, and failed to turn at a waypoint onto the final approach course. They overflew the course and impacted terrain. The pilot flying had no idea where he was before they started, and indicated as much, asking the pilot not flying to handle the navigation and keep them honest. They were IMC for most of the flight, at night.

Setting aside legalities, it wasn't the home-made nature of the approach that did them in, but failure to follow the guidance that they had. The same could be said equally of flying a published procedure; if one flies off the procedure and doesn't stay on track, one can certainly impact terrain as the crew on that helicopter did.

[IO540]

Not sure you could just jump from one plan to another mid flight?

Well, you won't get guidance between clearing the old FP and activating the new FP. The only way to maintain continuous NAV-mode guidance is to add/delete WPs one at a time, manually.

So you would fly on in HDG mode for that bit, and then (if the GPS makes it necessary; I don't fly with a Garmin myself) set a DCT to the first WP of the new FP.

I do this frequently because it often happens that ATC gives me a DCT to a WP which is not on the filed route i.e. to a WP which is not among those in the GPS FP. Theoretically one should question that, because the allocation of a DCT to a WP off one's filed route raises the issue of what to do in a lost comms situation, but in reality one just goes along with ATC because they do it all the time (in the UK). The only practical issue is that one immediately loses one's LFOB (landing fuel on board) data, and the ETA/ETE etc, because the GPS no longer sees the original FP. So, having loaded that DCT WP ASAP (to satisfy ATC) I then add it to the original FP, and as soon as that happens, the GPS picks things up from there. I hope this is as clear as mud

[liam548]

Originally Posted by flybymike

No idea whether IFR reporting points are shown on the Airbox units but they are shown on both my VFR Garmin units. They are all five letter names and there are loads of 'em!

Does anyone know of a list of all the UK reporting points with coordinates by any chance, are they listed on the NATS site anywhere?

IO540, do you know?

[Miroku]

Does anyone know of a list of all the UK reporting points with coordinates by any chance, are they listed on the NATS site anywhere?

Try AIP - IAIP - Enroute information - Radio Navigation Aids (ENR 4.1)

Maps are same page, Lower ATS routes (ENR 6.3.0)

[IO540]

Does anyone know of a list of all the UK reporting points with coordinates by any chance, are they listed on the NATS site anywhere?

IO540, do you know?

No idea, sorry. I hate VRPs with a vengeance. One of the best things about having an IR is that ATC are no longer entitled to order you to fly to "Vicki Point" which you can't find on the bl00dy map

And one of the best things about the Skymap 3 / KMD150 / KMD550 products (I have the 550) is that they have all these VRPs so you can fly to them using the GPS, so when Cranfield tell me to report at Woburn (some biggish house in the woods, IIRC) I can find it

When I was doing the FAA CPL training (a few years ago, UK), the instructor got me to find some VRP. Obviously I couldn't find it. But he couldn't find it either. Eventually we flew to the spot using GPS and it was some stupid roundabout...

[liam548]

Originally Posted by Miroku

Try AIP - IAIP - Enroute information - Radio Navigation Aids (ENR 4.1)

Maps are same page, Lower ATS routes (ENR 6.3.0)

Thanks for the reply however I am aware of these pages.

I am looking specifically for something similar to the En route radio nav aids page with coordinates given but for the en route IFR reporting points/intersections such as VASIL and UPTON etc

People have posted that certain products have these in their databases already.
For instance this page lists the location of MALBY


Nick Locke's Reporting Points

If nothing more but to be able to relate specifically to these when talking to ATC rather than saying I am 3 miles west of a small village somwhere, I think they would come in useful when I complete my IMC course.

[IO540]

Those are airways intersections.

Let me look tomorrow; there are various lists.

[24Carrot]

If you are after Five-Letter-Pronouncable-Names (also called 5LPN I believe), like MALBY, KATHY, SITET, etc, the most official list(s) I know of are at:
EUROCONTROL - The European AIS Database: Introduction to EAD Basic - Home
Go to EAD Basic, register for PAMS Lite, login, Enter Applications, click on PAMS Lite, and you get a form to generate apparently Europe-wide lists of documents.

If you select
Authority = Country, Authority Type = Civil, AIP Type=AIP, Part = ENR

A list of documents should appear and you should find something like:
"Name Code Designators for Significant Points."

For example the UK has EG_ENR 4.4, France has LF_ENR 4.3, etc.

Documents with Navaid details are there too.

PS The abbreviation isn't 5LPN, it is 5LNC (Five Letter Name Code).

[liam548]

This is what I was referring to, a complete list of IFR intersection reporting points with coordinates.

Had to email the CAA to find the link, couldnt find it in the AIP when I looked last night.

"

The official list of 5 letter Significant Point list (as it is referred to now) has always been in the UK AIP (hosted by NATS) at this link

http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadba...2010-12-16.pdf

Also of use may be the maps of the Lower Air Traffic Service (ATS) Routes which show the points graphically where the appear on ATS routes up to FL245:


Southern coverage.... http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadbasic/pamslight-C9C758D55BDF03AC0820BDDA8C88E7F9/7FE5QZZF3FXUS/EN/Charts/ENR/AIRAC/EG_ENR_6_3_1_1_en_2010-10-21.pdf


Northern Coverage... http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadbasic/pamslight-C9C758D55BDF03AC0820BDDA8C88E7F9/7FE5QZZF3FXUS/EN/Charts/ENR/AIRAC/EG_ENR_6_3_2_2_en_2010-11-18.pdf"

"

[liam548]

Originally Posted by Miroku

I0540, would you mind expanding on this please? I've not heard of this before. I'm assuming this would work on my Airbox Clarity?

I emailed the friendly bunch at Airbox and they are building these intersections into their database as we speak simply because I asked for it and said they would be useful, even to VFR pilots.

Many thanks Airbox!!

[Miroku]

And many thanks to you too Liam. I await the updates from Airbox with baited breath!. Last time I asked I was told they would be available in about two weeks or so..............

That was last week.

[liam548]

I have been told there are 4 stages of upgrades planned with the next one coming within a week or so, (Fastplan).

Sorry to hi jack PUFLs thread. He had a valid and good question, as I think there is probably too little time spent on the practical sides of having an IMCR, such as planning and using it day to day.

[Miroku]

the Lower Air Traffic Service (ATS) Routes

What would be useful would be if someone could overlay these reporting points on the half mill chart...........Then we could see where they were with reference to charts we are familiar with.

[IO540]

They are not "reporting points" in the VRP sense. They are used as IFR waypoints.

No way should UK ATC ask or expect VFR traffic to navigate to or report at any of them, because the only way to navigate to them is with RNAV i.e. a GPS, but GPS does not officially exist for VFR

(In some countries VFR traffic is expected to navigate via IFR routes - e.g. Greece).

In general terms, ATC should be familiar with those local to them; e.g. VFR traffic inbound to Bournemouth could report at NEDUL, though more traditionally it might report at The Needles (almost the same place). NEDUL is shown on the VFR chart.

London Information is also familiar with them, especially those on the FIR boundary with France (and they can see you on their "unofficial radar" these days).

IMHO, and ATC will always deny this because they must, if you ask for a transit of some CAS, giving your route in terms of IFR waypoints is more likely to get you in because it sounds more like you know where you are More practically, if you have them loaded into a route in the GPS, you should be able to read off the ETA to any of them instantly, which is another great cockpit workload saver.

I think that if they were all shown on the 1:500k VFR chart, they would clutter it far too much.

[liam548]

Originally Posted by Miroku

What would be useful would be if someone could overlay these reporting points on the half mill chart...........Then we could see where they were with reference to charts we are familiar with.

To be honest I think these IFR waypoints will appear on fastplan and on Clarity/Foresight but have the option to be displayed or not, so as to not clutter the screen so much.

[VMC-on-top]

VFR traffic inbound to Bournemouth could report at NEDUL, though more traditionally it might report at The Needles

Can I ask a stupid question?

I fly with an IMCR and only very rarely use IFR reporting points, although I use Sky Demon and they are on there. Its regarding the pronunciation of these reporting points. In your example, IO, NEDUL could easily be confused as "The Needles" (probably not a good example if they are close to each other - and apologies I haven't checked) but 1. could there ever be (and has there ever been) an instance that an IFR reporting point could be confused with a local place name and 2. does it matter how they are pronounced - and one assumes, the pronunciation differences is quite different depending on the pilot's dialect?

For instance,

DISAL = "Dee-sahl" or "Dies-all"?
DOBEM = "Doh-bem" or "Doo-bem" or "Dobe-um"
REXAM = (presumably) "Wrexham" - whcih is a actually very close to Wrexham itself?

[24Carrot]

I have always wondered how you should pronounce "XIDIL".

[Pace]

I have always wondered how you should pronounce "XIDIL".

Normally flying airways you will have a copy of your approved flight plan.
You will know the expected intersection points enroute.
In the UK where they speak clear BBC English you should not have a problem understanding what the controllers say.

BUT!!!!!!!!!!!! cross into France and its a nightmare undestanding the intersections you are cleared to.on many occasions you have to ask for a spelling as the pronunciations in no way are anything like what you think they should be.
I would not worry too much in the UK pure luxury

"XIDIL". is pronounced X IDIL

Pace