Flight Planning for an IMC Flight

[IO540]

Being able to trust it a bit more?

I think my point was that actually user waypoints are very rarely needed. They can be time consuming to enter, whereas clicking on some airway intersections is much quicker.

[SNS3Guppy]

I suspect that one or two folks have the lost the bit about this trip being in solid IMC.

I suspect not. If you're flying under IFR will your accuracy be less if visibility is lower? Either you can navigate, or you can't.

That said I've got two VOR/ILS a DME and a ADF and I'll have 'em all tuned idented and selected if they're available as well as a chart on my lap. I see no harm in having belt, braces and a piece of string to hold up one's trousers in IMC.

There's no question that you should avail yourself of all the resources you have handy. One shouldn't presume, however, that simply because instrument conditions exist, one can't navigate without a GPS. If one can't get by without the GPS, one perhaps ought not go in the first place.

We had to load every single point using lat long coordinates for the complete trip from Saudi Arabia (Yikes) but we double checked and confirmed each item and then checked againt the maps.

When I do a long trip (long being 7,000+ miles), the loaded flight plan can go on for twelve pages or more. I check every single waypoint by distance and bearing between waypoints, as well as verifying the latitude and longitude of every single waypoint, before departure. I generally enter it into at least three different GPS, INS, and FMS computers on board, and verify every single one of them. I also tune and identify courses, and keep track of waypoints one at a time during the entire length of the flight. Every few waypoints I verify accuracy of the nav, time over the waypoint, fuel, expected fuel burn against actual fuel burn, expected fuel remaining vs. actual fuel remaining, etc.

Verifying the data one is using should be a part of every single flight, whether the information is in a database, or not.

Use them all the time There are many reasons you may use a user created waypoint.

Absolutely. I do it all the time. Every oceanic crossing involves flight between waypoints, often marked by lat/long locations, and every one of these is manually entered before the crossing. As we reach each location, we verify nav accuracy shortly after crossing the fix and keep it plotted on charts as a record of what we did. We check our VHF nav against GPS and INS/IRS nav before going feet wet, and check it against the altimeters; it all gets recorded on charts to verify we did it and that it was accurate. Every waypoint is updated and the time over the next one forecast. We have to be accurate along the track and horizontally, and we must be within three minutes over every waypoint. It's absolutely crucial to keep verifying what's next, what's loaded the nav system in use, and current trends during the flight.

A flight which is slower due to headwinds will have a different fuel burn, will arrive over waypoints at later times, and may affect our ETA over this point or that point. Other traffic is being predicated on our ability to be where we say we are, or will be, when we say it.

These are no different than the techniques I used as a student pilot on my first solo cross country, and no different than I teach a student to use. Verifying the information, checking it regularly during the flight, and keeping it updated with current trends and changing conditions is elemental to the safe conduct of a cross country flight.

[ShyTorque]

I use my own GPS waypoints on almost every flight. "Rubbish in = rubbish out" obviously holds true but checking before pressing enter and checking that the GPS tracks and distances are correct before flight is the way to eliminate such errors. Just like inputting to any other navigation equipment.

There was a comment about joining and using airways. Not possible if the pilot holds an IMC rating rather than an IR, which was intimated in the first post.

[IO540]

You can use airway intersections as waypoints.

The fact there may be a real ATS route 8000ft above you doesn't matter

What you cannot do on the IMCR is fly in Class A (IFR).

[ShyTorque]

See my comment above!

[Pace]

What you cannot do on the IMCR is fly in Class A (IFR).

Hence why creating user way points is more needed flying OCAS than flying in CAS.

Flying OCAS means avoiding CAS, means flying to points which wont have VOR, NDB, intersections in the correct places.

Flying OCAS Means you will be shooting approaches into places which may have zero published approaches or limited approaches which maybe pilot interpretated or non precision.

Hence the reason why I am pushing the knowledge of creating user waypoints in a safe and accurate way and backing them up by checking them.

Infact using a Garmin will allow you to create a user point simply by placing a cursor where visually you want it to be and allowing the system to create that point for you?

Pace

[flybymike]

Precisely. There is a world of difference between manually entering lat/long waypoints on the one hand, and physically placing them in the right place on a moving map display using the cursor on the other. A picture paints a thousand words and cannot lie etc.

[SNS3Guppy]

Say again? You're suggesting that inputting a lat and long is somehow deceptive, inaccurate, or a lie?

Verify your coordinates and enter them. Not exactly rocket science, and pretty darn precise.

I spent years locating points in the middle of nowhere visually when responding to fires and other emergencies. When GPS became available, I began integrating that with LoRaN and other navigation to find the same coordinates. Inputting the coordinates for a fire could take us to a single burning tree in a thousand square miles of forest.

There's no need to try to lay in a point on a moving map first. If your coordinates are good, they're good. You should always verify them numerically, and look at a real map at the same time; see if your coordinates are where you think.

I've long suggested that VFR pilots, including non-instrument rated pilots, carry instrument charts, anyway. There's a lot of good information on those charts that can be of use. Where practicable, it's a good idea for pilots flying IFR to carry VFR charts, too. It's not always practicable, but it's a good idea.

There was a comment about joining and using airways. Not possible if the pilot holds an IMC rating rather than an IR, which was intimated in the first post.

You can't fly an airway or airway routing while operating VFR? No reason why one can't do it IFR, either.

[flybymike]

Say again? You're suggesting that inputting a lat and long is somehow deceptive, inaccurate, or a lie?

Of course I am not saying that. I am merely using an old English idiom and "suggesting" that there is less room for doubt using pictures rather than (or additional to) numbers.

[Sciolistes]

PUFL,

I have been told that flight planning for vfr and ifr are the same, instead of aiming for visual turning points, you plan to route over beacons...

Is this broadly correct or should I aim for an off-set of a beacon to avoid dangers of collision over a beacon, etc.

You don't need to fly over the beacons unless it makes sense to do so. I usually (I say usually as that is what I used to do but don't fly GA at the moment) first look at tge VFR chart to determine a sensible general route avoid Class A and a plan B if Class D isn't available and other awkward airspace, etc. Once you have the macro route, figure out what radial/DMEs, QDM/QDRs or crosscuts you want to use to achieve that. There should be no problem dead reckoning a few miles between nice juicy fixes. Also plan a sensible place for a cloud break if arriving visual (also for possible diversions), give yourself a bit more distance than you might think you need.

Make sure your MSA assessments are accurate. Don't just use the GRID MORA, as that is probably higher than you need. Actually workout the MSA for the planned route with a bit of lateral fat. If push comes to shove, you want to know you can fly a couple of hudred feet lower if needed!

Don't forget about glide clear too.

Fix to fix navigation technique is powerful, but brain intensive (best link I could find quickly).

[SNS3Guppy]

I am merely using an old English idiom and "suggesting" that there is less room for doubt using pictures rather than (or additional to) numbers.

You're not going to be more accurate by laying in a waypoint over a moving map. Get the correct lat/long for the waypoint, and you're dead-nuts accurate.

Scroll a cursor around and drop it where you *think* the waypoint is, and you're not nearly as accurate.

[Pace]

Tha use of lat long co ordinates. Seems to be a forgotten art with modern GPS and the PPL world ?

Flying over vast areas of Africa and many parts of the world when flying airways there is little or no radar coverage means extensive use of lat long co ordinates.

Flying those airways and you will be streaming out long lists of lat long co ordinates to controllers with estimates and you will hear every other airline doing the same.
I do find it amazing that there is a reluctance to create user waypoints using co ordinates.

Yes there is room for error but that goes for inputting any nav or communication data.

How many times have you put in an intersection name only to mispel it and find you are heading somewhere 3000 miles away?

Using a Garmin 530 / 430 does allow you to create points with a cursor! more useful for skirting around shown blocks of airspace but the use of lat long co ordinates should not become a lost art as we become slaves to the direct to button on GPS units.

Pace

[englishal]

I tend to use airway intersections rather than anything else for VFR. For example instead of trying to enter a waypoint for Reading, I'll just use LINDY which is in the GPS.

I have made many errors over the years entering wrong lat and long info - normally related to entering EAST instead of WEST which makes a big difference I distinctly remember doing this one time, checking, double checking and I still had it wrong. It was only when it became obvious that it was wrong that I sussed out why.

I suppose it is like proof reading your own typing.

[Pace]

englishall

I have no problem in using an intersection point if it happens to be above where you want to be.
Why create work for yourself creating another point below it?

There are remote areas even in the UK where such existing points dont exist and knowing how to create one accurately and safely is a must.

I would love to create my own SID STARS for certain airfields and store them in the Garmin 530/430 under airfield data.
Sadly have not found a way to do that creating them is no problem but bunching them together and saving them as an approach???
Anyone know how to do that with the GARMIN 430/530?

Pace

[IO540]

Not possible to create a loadable "approach" on any IFR GPS I know of.

What you can obviously do is create a flight plan whose waypoints just happen to form an approach procedure, and when you are near the destination you load that flight plan to replace the existing one.

With the GNSx30W units one can load flight plans generated in Flitestar, via a flash card and some Garmin converter software, but that doesn't appear to deliver anything useful when in the air already.

[Pace]

10540

The only way I can see how it can be done is in the saved flight plans with the starting and ending points of the approach all loaded and saved.

Making a trip you would have to select that plan add your departure airfield and waypoint which then run into the approach part.

Not sure you could just jump from one plan to another mid flight?

Pace

[ShyTorque]

SNSGuppy,

Of course anyone can use airways designated points if they are convenient but they may obviously not be, due to airspace constraints such as danger areas or other controlled airspace beneath them.

We may be separated by a common language but in this part of the world an IMC rated pilot is restricted in what he/she is allowed to do. An IMC rated pilot cannot enter controlled airspace under IFR. Airways are Class A and therefore require flight to be conducted under IFR. Special VFR is allowed in CTZs but not in airways.

An IMC rating extends the privileges of a PPL (A) holder to allow flight as PIC:

* Out of site of the surface
* In a control zone on SVFR clearance with a flight visibility less than 5 nm but not less than 1.5 nm
* Outside controlled airspace in a flight visibility less than 1.5 nm
* Carrying passengers above 3000 ft amsl in IMC or in flight visibility less than 3 nm at or below that height, when outside controlled airspace
* During take-off or landing with a flight visibility below cloud of not less than 1 nm

The IMC rating is only valid in UK territorial airspace, Channel Islands airspace and Isle of Man airspace.

[ShyTorque]

Not sure you could just jump from one plan to another mid flight?

This probably depends on the type of GPS but it's certainly possible to change flightplans in flight using 430/530.

During pre-flight planning I use Google Earth to obtain my lat/long co-ordinates, scrolling the pointer to the desired location and reading off the bottom of the page. They are always within a couple of metres or so.

I use my own waypoints for routing through and around controlled airspace and landing sites; they are used bioth IFR and VFR.

[Sir Niall Dementia]

If you are going to build your own GPS approaches i would strongly reccomend reading this: http://www.aaiu.ie/upload/general/4719-0.PDF
The instructor was a good mate of mine.

[SNS3Guppy]

Not possible to create a loadable "approach" on any IFR GPS I know of.

I'm not aware of any IFR GPS equipment that doesn't include an approach database.

If one is going to fly a legal approach using the GPS equipment, it has to be selectable from the database.

Of course one can load an approach on GPS equipment.

I would love to create my own SID STARS for certain airfields and store them in the Garmin 530/430 under airfield data.
Sadly have not found a way to do that creating them is no problem but bunching them together and saving them as an approach???
Anyone know how to do that with the GARMIN 430/530?

You can, but I don't know if you can save them in the way you're seeking.

I used such setups a lot in Iraq, especially to locations that didn't have the guidance I wanted, or to locations that needed alternate guidance (for reasons that won't be discussed). Certain locations under certain conditions offered few if any alternates during sudden changes in conditions. Dust storms could arise which caused visibility to go to nearly nothing in very short order, and could last much longer than fuel reserves. Diverting to Syria or Iran wasn't an option, and generally most other alternates in the area were down as well. Having a backup plan was a very wise idea.

Using a Garmin 530, establishing an endpoint at the threshold or at some point on the runway, a course line could be laid in and a waypoint built off the threshold point. I had all that coded and ready before departure. With prior checking of the approach path in visual conditions, I could be sure of obstruction clearance (it's a very flat place, mostly), and while vertical guidance could be introduced, I elected to operate as non-precision guidance using a 3:1 descent monitored off the distance to the threshold waypoint.

In areas where other guidance was not reliable or certain surface features sometimes prevented flying that guidance, the ability to get to the runway under unusual or adverse conditions was critical, and often used. The same in other parts of the world, too, for similar reasons.

Obviously you're not going to be doing this in the UK in order to fly an instrument arrival and approach; you'll fly what's in your database, or fly your VHF navigation. Having it as a backup for orientation (something as simple as extending the runway centerline to orient yourself to the final approach course, for example) is a handy tool at night, as a backup to other means of navigation, or even for plain-jane day VFR flying.