Help needed with legal scenario...

[AviationUnenthusiast]

Hi everyone.

Currently trying to solve up a scenario, but having great difficulties getting my head around all this Aviation business. I Have been guided to make exclusive use of the CAP393 in order to address all the issues presented.

Here are a couple of facts I plucked out just to make sense of the subsequent paragraphs:

• Peter hired a Cessna 172 for the weekend.

• Peter's instrument rating was time expired.

Peter noticed that directly underneath the aircraft there was a very large airport with commercial aircraft taking off. “Ooh look, isn’t that an Easyjet asked Liz?” “Yes”, said Peter “but I don’t think we should be here, we are only at 2,000 feet”. Slowly it dawned on Peter that he was over Luton CTR/CTA and was flying in controlled airspace on the wrong radio frequency. He changed frequency and made a quick call to the control tower. The air traffic control officer was furious with Peter and asked for his call sign and his name and where he had come from. “You will be hearing from the CAA about this. Now fly this QDM and exit to the North as quickly as possible, maintain 2000 feet and report leaving the ATZ”. “Roger, November-Bravo” confirmed Peter. On departing to the North Peter made the departure call and proceeded on course for Leeds.

Peter flew along designated airways. In the course of the flight the weather deteriorated and rather than diverting to the east or west Peter decided to press on with the flight. At one point, Peter was flying in cloud the visibility was down to zero and he was out of sight of the ground. “It’s a good job I’ve done a bit of instrument flying isn’t it Liz or we would be in a pickle”.

With regards to flying over the airport...from what I understand, in order to fly in controlled airspace, a instrument rating is required? As Peter's IR is time expired, he must then have infringed something? Does anyone know of a specific provision/regulation? I can't seem to find it under the CAP393. Peter said "...we are only at 2000 feet", but what significance does that have in controlled airspace?

Just to get this straight - Peter started the flight under visual flight rules, but once he was flying in cloud (with zero visibility) and out of sight of the ground he was then operating under Instrument flight rules? Would I be required to mention something along the lines that in order to be able to fly in such conditions Peter would require an IMC rating?

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

[2 sheds]

Groan...! Can you afford the necessary consultancy fee?

2 s

[dublinpilot]

Would I be required to mention something along the lines that in order to be able to fly in such conditions Peter would require an IMC rating?

Required by who?

from what I understand, in order to fly in controlled airspace, a instrument rating is required?

Only a limited type of controlled airspace requires an instrument rating.

You've asked some basic questions that didn't require the whole story line in order to be asked. It would seem that you are not a pilot yourself, so I'm a little confused about your motivation for asking these questions. Do you mind explaining to us why you want to know about instrument flying legalities?

If you were Peter, you'd know the answers to these questions.

If you were Liz, why the desire for help with a 'legal scenario'?

Be a little more open with us, and you'll proably find that we'll be more open with you.....but we have a long history here of trolls.....

dp

[BackPacker]

from what I understand, in order to fly in controlled airspace, a instrument rating is required?

No. In order to fly in controlled airspace, you need to have permission from the controller.

You need an instrument rating, essentially, to fly in "instrument conditions" (IMC). But particularly in the UK this is not an easy concept, with an IMC rating, and the possibility to file and fly IFR for pilots without an IMC/IR as long as they stay in VMC. You might want to grab an air law book and see what the rules are.

But anyway, your Peter ending up above Luton doesn't have to do all that much with not having an IR, but not having asked permission. Which, in turn, was a navigation blunder, which in turn might have been caused by the weather conditions.

we are only at 2,000 feet”

A typical CTR extends to 3000 feet above ground level (3500 MSL in the case of Luton). This is so that aircraft can receive their final vectors, perform the approach and perform the go-around procedure up to 2000 feet AGL without having to leave the frequency at busy times. So a lot of CTRs can be overflown legally at 3000 feet AGL or above.

However... To protect the initial approach phase there's typically a layer of CTA/TMA overhead busy fields. Or, in case of London, this becomes one contiguous layer over the whole of London. This layer starts somewhere around 1500-2000 feet, with higher start levels as you get away from the area, and extends up to a level that's practically not reachable in a GA airplane with a basic VFR PPL. Grab a map of the Southern UK to see what the situation really looks like.

So overflying Luton at any altitude without permission is not possible - you have to go around its airspace at low level. But 2000 feet is particularly bad because that's typically the final approach and go-around altitude. In other words, it's got the highest traffic density of any altitude if things get busy. Statistically speaking you are safer at 1000' or 3000'. On the other hand, statistically speaking you are safer directly above the runway than 6 miles out. No commercial aircraft has any business flying directly above the runway at 2000 feet - they should be on the ground by then.

report leaving the ATZ

I would certainly hope that the Luton controller would know the difference between a CTR and an ATZ, and would ask Peter to report leaving the CTR. In fact, looking at my map here, it looks like Luton doesn't even have an ATZ.

once he was flying in cloud (with zero visibility) and out of sight of the ground he was then operating under Instrument flight rules

Nope. He was already "in IMC" when he got near the cloud. To fly under Visual Flight Rules (VFR) require you to fly in Visual Meteorological Circumstances (VMC), and they prescribe a minimum distance from clouds. And to fly in IMC requires an IR or an IMC rating, plus conformance to IFR rules.

Peter flew along designated airways.

Most of the "designated airways" in the UK are class A. You need an IR and an IFR plan to fly them. You will also fly them at a relatively high altitude. And you fly them from navigation beacon (or intersection) to the next. It doesn't fit at all with your scenario where somebody was bimbling about, and got lost, at 2000 feet.

Currently trying to solve up a scenario, but having great difficulties getting my head around all this Aviation business.

You come across as a lawyer that's tasked to defend a client that's done something wrong along these lines. If that's indeed the case, you are in way over your head.

You also forgot to mention a few other things that might be extremely important in a court case. Was Peter using a transponder? Was his flight preparation OK, and what caused him to get off-course? What licenses did the pilot have, were they current, how long was his IR/IMC expired? Did he file a flight plan? What did he do *exactly* when he found out his navigation blunder?

Do I need to go on?

[The Old Fat One]

Can't help you with the legal specifics, but having recently worked in a flying club, I witnessed similar half-witted flying on one or two occasions and therefore can offer a little (not so tongue in cheek) advice.

As dublin bloke comments, we are a bit short of info, so I'll make a couple of assumptions...

One, you're a legal eagle.
Two, you're acting on behalf of Liz, who needs compensation for the PTSD.

Or three, you're acting on behalf of the CFI of the Flying Club/School who wants the retarded pilot grounded for life.

They are probably both wasting their money and your time...difficult to get the CAA to move in any direction other than the one they are already going in (plenty of Pprune threads to read for enlightenment in this area), however as you are tasked by the Law Society to counsel best advice (and not merely to act as a partner of Douie, Fleecem and Howe) pass this on...

Liz, be thankful you are in one piece and don't get in an aircraft with someone of dubious sanity again.

Mr CFI, be thankful you got your asset back, rewrite the Flying Order Book to include a mandatory, thorough competency check before hiring your kites to people you don't know.

My invoice is in the post.

[IO540]

Is this a wind-up?

With regards to flying over the airport...from what I understand, in order to fly in controlled airspace, a instrument rating is required?

This bloke doesn't even have a PPL.

Maybe time to pull out that famous trip report of a flight to Albania (or whatever) using a road atlas...

[The Old Fat One]

Immediately after I posted above I read this...

Northamptonshire Coroner Anne Pember recorded a narrative verdict.
She said: "Rodney Badham was the pilot and Christopher Davis a passenger in a Beech Baron twin engine aeroplane.
"The plane took off from Coventry Airport with approximately a quarter tank of fuel on a journey to France.
"The plane got into difficulties over the Channel and landed in the sea about 16 miles north of Cherbourg.
"It is likely that the plane ran out of fuel, resulting in the deaths of both men by drowning."
Hour of fuel
An inquest at Northampton General Hospital heard the aircraft set off from Coventry Airport.
The trio were due to fly to Guernsey to refuel, then continue to France, but over the Channel one engine cut out, then the other started to have difficulties.
The inquest heard the plane crashed into the sea, sparking a rescue by French authorities.
All three were rescued from the water, but only Mr Wilkinson, of Brigstock, Kettering, survived.
Mr Wilkinson told the inquest Mr Badham treated the plane as his own and took care of refuelling and maintenance.
Julian Firth, from the Air Accident Investigation Branch, said based on the evidence, the plane would have had about an hour of fuel when it set off.
He said it crashed as a "probable consequence of running out of fuel".

So no I0540, sadly I doubt it is a wind up. Given some of the GA stuff you read on here and elsewhere, anything is possible.

[overandout]

I think this guy is a rubbish author/editor trying to get a bit of his story / plot believable. He has a long way to go.

[IO540]

sadly I doubt it is a wind up

You may well be right.

However I suspect that Baron pilot was one of many who don't understand that refuelling in Jersey or Guernsey is usually pointless, when the duty drawback would have a similar effect.

The trio were due to fly to Guernsey to refuel, then continue to France,

What is the range of a Baron?

[BackPacker]

I think this guy is a rubbish author/editor trying to get a bit of his story / plot believable. He has a long way to go.

That's another possibility. In which case it would be a very wise idea to visit a flying club/school around the Luton area, have a long chat with the CFI about the legal and practical aspects of a flight in/around a CTR, and then go for such a flight. Best 300 pounds ever spent I'd say.

[24Carrot]

If it is a novel, the plot does need work.

Despite the impression you might get from some in the "Roger isn't Looking" thread, I can't believe an ATCO would read the Riot Act and only then give vectors. A non-radio contact needs a lot of separation because it is unpredictable. Once it comes on the radio, I can't believe a ticking-off is a priority. Especially as 'Peter' might just switch the radio off if he doesn't like what he is hearing.

And "Report leaving" the whatever? Peter didn't know he was in the zone till he saw the easyjet, so how credible would that report be.

Incidentally, I can't find anything in CAP413 about roastings from ATC. Should one just say "Roger", or would some of you opt for "Cringing"?

[AviationUnenthusiast]

Many thanks for the replies so far, particularly BackPacker. Okay, I think a little insight is in order. As much as I'd like to give you all your juicy story, I'm merely an LLB student who regrettably opted for an Aviation module. We haven't been taught anything in relation to the scenario, as it's more of a self-study research type assignment.

[Fuji Abound]

Good try, but for me this isnt what the forum is about.

Sorry.

[IO540]

I'm merely an LLB student who regrettably opted for an Aviation module.

You have quite a learning curve on aviation law, etc, before you will be able to make sense of this stuff.

For example one doesn't need an IR to go into controlled airspace. What one needs is an ATC clearance.

Even if you come here with the best of intentions, nobody is going to type up the vast reams of stuff that would be needed to make it all hang together.

[BackPacker]

Well, in that case I'd definitely start with buying (or borrowing) a normal PPL-style Air Law book. Amongst other topics, you'll learn about IFR/VFR/IMC/VMC, license requirements and privileges, airspace division and classes, ATC responsibilities, incident investigation and a lot of other things that are currently part of your scenario.

This one might just do the trick and is not too expensive:
The ANO in Plain English - Airplan Flight Equipment

Otherwise either of these are the standard textbooks for PPLs:
OAT Media PPL Book 1 - Air Law (inc. Operational Procedures) : OAA
Private Pilot's Licence Course, PPL 2 Air Law, Operational Proce : AFE

[Heliplane]

So this was nothing to do with the Cessna I overheard departing from Elstree to Leeds last Saturday?

[AviationUnenthusiast]

BackPacker, many thanks yet again. Found some samples of The ANO in Plain English and it looks the one.

[mad_jock]

Personally my completely none legal advice to someone who discovers they are 2000ft over head of any of the main London airports with out being cleared would be ouch your shafted mate. Some threads for you to have a look at.

http://www.pprune.org/private-flying...wn-dundee.html


http://www.pprune.org/private-flying...on-learnt.html

The first one is an indication of some of the prats that are about. And has the offical report in it as well. This one is still live on the legal front I believe.

And the second one is actually one which is more likely to happen in real life and happens too many times.



The ANO is your source document but its never used day to day. In fact the only time I look at it is when there is some on here starts talking ****e about logging hours or some such.

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP393.PDF

There are 2 airlaw books out there for private pilots Airlaw by either Thom or Pratt. You can go to the next level and get the Oxford Airlaw commercial notes but to be honest they won't give you any more than the PPL books for the basics. You can pick them up on ebay or your local public libary might have a copy.

To be honest its quite hard to actually go through all the points that you need to be educated on and would be quite lengthy on here. But a couple of hours of ground school with a flying instructor (make sure its an auld fart grizzerly one) would cover everything you would want to know.

If you give your region on here I am sure that someone would sit down with you and your mates for an afternoon for cash (would't have thought it would cost more than 30-40 quid). It doesn't actually need to be an instructor just someone that has done something a bit more than go for a burger in the same airport once a month or just bimbled round their local area.


opps took along time writting that one and re-covered backpacker suggestions

[Whirlygig]

Good try, but for me this isnt what the forum is about.

Wny not? Help the aviation law student now and he or she may well help any of us in the future.

Cheers

Whirls

[The Old Fat One]

Good try, but for me this isnt what the forum is about.

Sorry.

Beg to differ. Lots of folk taking an interest, the poster has got some good feedback and potential for the thread to take off (no pun intended) in various directions. Plus a little humour and sarcasm to boot and, as yet, not a troll in sight.

It's the internet, not a lecture hall.

PS Whirls was a fraction quicker on the keyboard

PPS Got one assumption nearly right....he/she is a legal eaglet