Cross country in the winter
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Cross country in the winter
Hope someone can help me with a little niggle I've got.
I'm still waiting to do my xcountry, (for 2 months now). Anyway, am suppose to be trying again in the next few days.
My concern is the cold weather: I'm not too worried about the carb heat in freezing conditions, I'll just use it more often for longer. What I'm concerned about is possible icing on the wings or airframe. How do you ensure this doesn't happen? If it does, what can you do about it, (plus what is the likelyhood of this happening to a student PPL, (given that we're not allowed to fly in conditions too adverse)
Be glad of any input from anybody
b
I'm still waiting to do my xcountry, (for 2 months now). Anyway, am suppose to be trying again in the next few days.
My concern is the cold weather: I'm not too worried about the carb heat in freezing conditions, I'll just use it more often for longer. What I'm concerned about is possible icing on the wings or airframe. How do you ensure this doesn't happen? If it does, what can you do about it, (plus what is the likelyhood of this happening to a student PPL, (given that we're not allowed to fly in conditions too adverse)
Be glad of any input from anybody
b
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Make sure you check the freezing levels and also their trends as well as is happening with weather systems, etc. Then you want to leave yourself a good bit of room between your cruise altitude and the freezing level. Talk to your CFI and work out with them what a good bit of room looks like for you.
Remember to take terrain and any legal altitude restrictions/requirements.
What has been drilled into me several times is "don't flirt with the freezing level".
Since you've been waiting two months to go, you're obviously sick and tired of putting it off, but I'm the person who had to wait 4 months (count them!) before being able to go on my checkride due to weather and examiner availability
[ 13 December 2001: Message edited by: BayAreaLondoner ]
Remember to take terrain and any legal altitude restrictions/requirements.
What has been drilled into me several times is "don't flirt with the freezing level".
Since you've been waiting two months to go, you're obviously sick and tired of putting it off, but I'm the person who had to wait 4 months (count them!) before being able to go on my checkride due to weather and examiner availability
[ 13 December 2001: Message edited by: BayAreaLondoner ]
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Bamboo
Carb icing can happen in summer just as much as winter (in fact more often I believe) Look at the safety sense leaflet on winter flying and piston engine icing from the SRG website (mail me if you can't find them - I have the PDFs). They're excellent.
I too had to wait 2 months to do my XQC - really frustrating and I sympathise. But I waited for a good day and really enjoyed it - I go so far as to say the best flying experience I've ever had. I think if I was worrying about the wx, I'd have ruined it.
Good luck when you go for it. When you get back, you really feel like a pilot.
bcfc
Carb icing can happen in summer just as much as winter (in fact more often I believe) Look at the safety sense leaflet on winter flying and piston engine icing from the SRG website (mail me if you can't find them - I have the PDFs). They're excellent.
I too had to wait 2 months to do my XQC - really frustrating and I sympathise. But I waited for a good day and really enjoyed it - I go so far as to say the best flying experience I've ever had. I think if I was worrying about the wx, I'd have ruined it.
Good luck when you go for it. When you get back, you really feel like a pilot.
bcfc
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As a VFR x-country you will not have any problems with structural icing so long as you remain clear of visible moisture. ie. don't enter clouds, don't fly if any rain/snow is forecast. Take your x-country on a nice clear day.
Good luck and have fun.
Good luck and have fun.
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Your time will come!
The main points to bear in mind are that airframe ice, as iterated by Mr Greaser, is very unlikely to occur outside of cloud and therefore will not be a problem. However, it is quite likely that you will set out early in order to maximise the short daylight period and the aircraft may well be frosty or have icy deposits on it's surface. It is imperative that this is comletely cleared and that hinges and actuators are clear before departure. The effect of ice laden wings on an aircraft struggling to get airborne can be dramatic and catastrophic (as I have witnessed).
Recently there has been a fairly high propensity to carb ice - some of the worst I've seen. It is true that it is likely to strike in summer months also but I am merely reporting recent conditions. Don't be alarmed, however, regular checks and increased vigilance is completely effective. Use the Carb Temp guage (if fitted). If it does occur then be prepared for the engine to protest a little as it eats a few chunks of melting ice: it gets worse before it gets better.
Another hazard of winter aviation is low and watery sunlight which can reduce into sun visibility very significantly. Be prepared for this and fly as accurately as possible and have faith in your nav planning.
Most important of all: Have fun!
The main points to bear in mind are that airframe ice, as iterated by Mr Greaser, is very unlikely to occur outside of cloud and therefore will not be a problem. However, it is quite likely that you will set out early in order to maximise the short daylight period and the aircraft may well be frosty or have icy deposits on it's surface. It is imperative that this is comletely cleared and that hinges and actuators are clear before departure. The effect of ice laden wings on an aircraft struggling to get airborne can be dramatic and catastrophic (as I have witnessed).
Recently there has been a fairly high propensity to carb ice - some of the worst I've seen. It is true that it is likely to strike in summer months also but I am merely reporting recent conditions. Don't be alarmed, however, regular checks and increased vigilance is completely effective. Use the Carb Temp guage (if fitted). If it does occur then be prepared for the engine to protest a little as it eats a few chunks of melting ice: it gets worse before it gets better.
Another hazard of winter aviation is low and watery sunlight which can reduce into sun visibility very significantly. Be prepared for this and fly as accurately as possible and have faith in your nav planning.
Most important of all: Have fun!
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Does anyone ever get the QXC out of the way without problems? Everyone always seems to wait months for the right day to come along, and there seem to be plenty of nightmare stories - an acquaintance of mine waited several months and then promptly bounced and broke the nosewheel on their first away landing 
. Seems like the hardest part of the PPL to get completed?
. Seems like the hardest part of the PPL to get completed?
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What a fortuitous post! I was thinking about cold weather this morning as I chipped The Boss's car out from its glistening cocoon.
Cessna 150 is not cleared for flight into freezing conditions. Does this mean you cannot fly above the freezing level?
Cessna 150 is not cleared for flight into freezing conditions. Does this mean you cannot fly above the freezing level?
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Of course you can fly above the freezing level in your Cessna but not into icing conditions, which as already previously stated requires visible moisture to be present. Actually flying in subzero temperatures is actually going to be like adding about 50 bhp onto the performance of the aeroplane, just make sure the heater is working!
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My understanding was that there had to be visible moisture well as sub zero temps (as suggested by someone earlier in the post) for airframe icing (of course make sure frost/ice is cleared off a/c b4 dep).
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Seems to be one of those things that gets talked about a lot, but PPlers have little first hand experience. I am not suggesting that is a bad thing, but if you get the chance when you have got some hours and experience under your belt go find a pilot with even more expereince, find the right day and go see what a little light icing is like, safely.
I personally found the most interesting part the instance with which the screen completely frosted over and equally on dropping below the freezing level how quickly again it cleared.
More specifically with regard to your question, of course the last thing there should be any risk of during your x country is running into icing - it probably means you will be flying on instruments anyway which you are not rated to do, other than a 180 and get away from it quickly.
In short, simply do not fly into cloud or rain showers if you are above or near the freezing level and do not fly into cloud or rain showers on your cross country in any event.
I personally found the most interesting part the instance with which the screen completely frosted over and equally on dropping below the freezing level how quickly again it cleared.
More specifically with regard to your question, of course the last thing there should be any risk of during your x country is running into icing - it probably means you will be flying on instruments anyway which you are not rated to do, other than a 180 and get away from it quickly.
In short, simply do not fly into cloud or rain showers if you are above or near the freezing level and do not fly into cloud or rain showers on your cross country in any event.
Hmm, someone needs to go back to Carb Icing theory 101 methinks... Winter flying is great. The current high pressure gives us great viz, low turbulence and light winds. Flying in the cold crisp air gives us a smidge more performance and better engine cooling for throwing your aeros around. And there are fewer people pootling about up there with rubbish lookouts and oh so wearisome r/t discipline.
If you are a VFR pilot only then you have very little to fear from icing because you won't ever get any...
On the subject of cleaning the a/c before take off if it iced up. About 2 years ago now I was confronted with a very iced up PA38 that needed an early morning flight. I thought I would set a cracking example and really went to town with yards brushes, buckets of boiling soapy water and numerous scrapers etc.
I spent a good half hour and thought I had done a good job. There were some bits that re-froze but they were limited and not in critical areas. As I taxied out there was a touch of glittery frost just beginning to to form on the wing surface but nothing much.
I took off. Ooops. Something not quite right here. Rate of climb down by 30%, sluggish control response <heartrate rapidly accelerating> "Umm I think we'd better go back" a VERY gentle tip toe around the circuit and landed with a precautionary +10kts Vref onto an icy short runway requiring Ayrton Senna'esque delicacy of braking...
Taxi back, park in the sun, go for coffee, have a think. Lessons to be learned - it is very very hard to properly de-ice a deep frozen light aircraft with household tools. It is very very dangerous to fly a light aircraft that has not been properly de-iced.
WWW
If you are a VFR pilot only then you have very little to fear from icing because you won't ever get any...
On the subject of cleaning the a/c before take off if it iced up. About 2 years ago now I was confronted with a very iced up PA38 that needed an early morning flight. I thought I would set a cracking example and really went to town with yards brushes, buckets of boiling soapy water and numerous scrapers etc.
I spent a good half hour and thought I had done a good job. There were some bits that re-froze but they were limited and not in critical areas. As I taxied out there was a touch of glittery frost just beginning to to form on the wing surface but nothing much.
I took off. Ooops. Something not quite right here. Rate of climb down by 30%, sluggish control response <heartrate rapidly accelerating> "Umm I think we'd better go back" a VERY gentle tip toe around the circuit and landed with a precautionary +10kts Vref onto an icy short runway requiring Ayrton Senna'esque delicacy of braking...
Taxi back, park in the sun, go for coffee, have a think. Lessons to be learned - it is very very hard to properly de-ice a deep frozen light aircraft with household tools. It is very very dangerous to fly a light aircraft that has not been properly de-iced.
WWW
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I saw someeone using a de-icing fluid on a TB20 last weekend whilst I was out with the scraper - did not get the opportunity to find out the name of the liquid, but I understand it was specifically for light aircraft. Anyone recommend a good fluid and supplier?
A2
A2
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Can't help with details of the fluid, except its very expensive! It's probably cheaper than a replacement aircraft though. I discovered a few weeks ago that it doesn't work instantly, the trick seems to be to spray the plane, then retire somewhere warm & let the de-icer do its stuff. There must be a market here for a hot-air de-icer.
WWW - totally agree with your comments re. winter flying.
WWW - totally agree with your comments re. winter flying.
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A useful read...
AOPA article on Icing
...or you could just stay at home in front a nice warm fire and watch telly!
AOPA article on Icing
...or you could just stay at home in front a nice warm fire and watch telly!
"Trust Me"
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Icing on the ground -if it's there, turn the side of the plane into sun -DOES make a difference.
Agree on freezing levels and avoiding cloud.
Plan your flight to not be eastbound am or westbound pm if the sun is shining.
Look out for fog and mist forming in the valleys before the sun goes down.
Go and DO IT -this is a lovely time of year to go flying.
Agree on freezing levels and avoiding cloud.
Plan your flight to not be eastbound am or westbound pm if the sun is shining.
Look out for fog and mist forming in the valleys before the sun goes down.
Go and DO IT -this is a lovely time of year to go flying.
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Thanks for all your answers, some very good points made.
WWW - Wish I COULD get the chance to fly in the high (pressure, that is!). Thought it was perfect today - got all the planning done, (including a/c check), then it was all off again, due to haze
Ah well, there's always tomorrow .....
b
WWW - Wish I COULD get the chance to fly in the high (pressure, that is!). Thought it was perfect today - got all the planning done, (including a/c check), then it was all off again, due to haze
Ah well, there's always tomorrow .....
b
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Carb Icing: Don't forget that if it is VERY cold the chances of carb icing are actually REDUCED, as the temperature drop across the venturi is sufficient to take already cold air BELOW the temperature at which ice will form. In fact, by using carb heat you could actually warm the air to the point where ice CAN form and you then have no way of removing it.
Airframe Icing: Beware of flying in cold clear air and then maybe descending into cloud which is above freezing. With your cold-soaked airframe you will accumulate ice.
Airframe Icing: Beware of flying in cold clear air and then maybe descending into cloud which is above freezing. With your cold-soaked airframe you will accumulate ice.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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The de-icing stuff does work. Don't know what it is, but White Waltham have some, which they charge pilots to use, unless you fly a club aircraft in which case it's free (but they don't like you using much of it!)
We probably all know from de-icing our cars that water will not work, even warm water, if the temperature is still below freezing! How many times have you de-iced your car with water, only for it to re-freeze? I know I have! But water should be fine if the temperature is above freezing. However, remember temperature decreases with altitude - personally, I'd rather use de-icer.
Interesting thing re. carb ice - in Phoenix, AZ, where I'm flying at the moment, the school I'm hiring from told me they don't use carb heat at all. Even when the temperature is around about freezing, and there are clouds around, as was the case last week. Apparently something to do with the difference between Lycoming and Continental engines, the carb configuration, and the inlet on Lycoming be routed through the warm oil sump. Anyone else know anything about this? I was very sceptical, and have been checking for carb ice regularly, but sure enough no sign of it, even at times when I know I'd be getting serious carb ice back in England. I don't recommend this, by the way, just want to find out more about it!
FFF
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[ 17 December 2001: Message edited by: FlyingForFun ]
We probably all know from de-icing our cars that water will not work, even warm water, if the temperature is still below freezing! How many times have you de-iced your car with water, only for it to re-freeze? I know I have! But water should be fine if the temperature is above freezing. However, remember temperature decreases with altitude - personally, I'd rather use de-icer.
Interesting thing re. carb ice - in Phoenix, AZ, where I'm flying at the moment, the school I'm hiring from told me they don't use carb heat at all. Even when the temperature is around about freezing, and there are clouds around, as was the case last week. Apparently something to do with the difference between Lycoming and Continental engines, the carb configuration, and the inlet on Lycoming be routed through the warm oil sump. Anyone else know anything about this? I was very sceptical, and have been checking for carb ice regularly, but sure enough no sign of it, even at times when I know I'd be getting serious carb ice back in England. I don't recommend this, by the way, just want to find out more about it!
FFF
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[ 17 December 2001: Message edited by: FlyingForFun ]
The small Continentals (up to O-200/240) are more efficient ice generators than the smaller Lycomings. As mentioned above, something to do with the position of the air intake / carb.
They sound horrible if you let enough ice build up then put on carb heat and force the engine to inhale water. It does focus the mind on using carb heat regularly though. Only done that once
They sound horrible if you let enough ice build up then put on carb heat and force the engine to inhale water. It does focus the mind on using carb heat regularly though. Only done that once
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We very rarely use carb heat on the light piper singles in the US, only time I use it is when flying IMC. Cessnas are a different matter. Through experience they are much more prone to carb icing than pipers.
