No IMC rating or IR - what flight rules to file for night flight to Northern Ireland
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I suspect the UK system, where a plain PPL is able to fly IFR if the actual conditions are VMC, was done that way to enable night flight.
In the UK, night=IFR so some kind of hack was needed to enable a PPL to fly at night.
I have no idea why night=IFR in the UK.
(to be fair, a real dark night is in effect IMC and therefore by definition IFR, but let's not go there because a plain PPL is allowed to fly at night in most places
)
In the UK, night=IFR so some kind of hack was needed to enable a PPL to fly at night.
I have no idea why night=IFR in the UK.
(to be fair, a real dark night is in effect IMC and therefore by definition IFR, but let's not go there because a plain PPL is allowed to fly at night in most places
)
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Soaringhigh
You are confusing things again!
The world is pretty much the same.
IFR - says nothing about the met conditions, it is simply a set of rules. You can be in VMC or IMC. That is true the world over.
VFR - is also simply a set of rules, but it also tells us about the met conditions - you cant be flying to VFR but in IMC.
In the UK, sensibly, the position has always been without an IR you can fly according to IFR in VMC. The so called vanilla PPL (one without any other ratings) could depart Southampton and fly to Glasgow declaring himself to be IFR the whole way as long as he maintained VMC and the flight was conducted OCAS.
We have already been through this in earlier posts - nearly every where else you need an IR to operate IFR whether or not you are maintaining VMC. That is the way it is, but NOT in the UK.
If you fly in the UK you need to know this -or at least it is worth while getting to grips with it.
In the same way in the UK at night you cant be operating to VFR even if the conditions are VMC. However if the conditions are VMC you can fly at night using IFR without an IR.
While we are at it, the UK also has no concept of VFR on top. It doesnt exist. If you are on top of a solid undercast you must be IFR even if the conditions are 50K wall to wall blue. Moreover if you are an old CAA vanilla PPL you shouldnt be there because you cant see the gorund. If you had a French vanilla PPL then you could.
All this possibly begs the question of why would a vanilla PPL "file" IFR. Well, he has no alternative if he wishes to fly at night (which was the point of this thread). However there is also a purpose during the day. If you are about the transition altitude by flying according to IFR it tells everyone that you will being obeying the rules rather than just opting for any old level that takes your fancy. That might not be such a bad thing.
You are confusing things again!
The world is pretty much the same.
IFR - says nothing about the met conditions, it is simply a set of rules. You can be in VMC or IMC. That is true the world over.
VFR - is also simply a set of rules, but it also tells us about the met conditions - you cant be flying to VFR but in IMC.
In the UK, sensibly, the position has always been without an IR you can fly according to IFR in VMC. The so called vanilla PPL (one without any other ratings) could depart Southampton and fly to Glasgow declaring himself to be IFR the whole way as long as he maintained VMC and the flight was conducted OCAS.
We have already been through this in earlier posts - nearly every where else you need an IR to operate IFR whether or not you are maintaining VMC. That is the way it is, but NOT in the UK.
If you fly in the UK you need to know this -or at least it is worth while getting to grips with it.
In the same way in the UK at night you cant be operating to VFR even if the conditions are VMC. However if the conditions are VMC you can fly at night using IFR without an IR.
While we are at it, the UK also has no concept of VFR on top. It doesnt exist. If you are on top of a solid undercast you must be IFR even if the conditions are 50K wall to wall blue. Moreover if you are an old CAA vanilla PPL you shouldnt be there because you cant see the gorund. If you had a French vanilla PPL then you could.
All this possibly begs the question of why would a vanilla PPL "file" IFR. Well, he has no alternative if he wishes to fly at night (which was the point of this thread). However there is also a purpose during the day. If you are about the transition altitude by flying according to IFR it tells everyone that you will being obeying the rules rather than just opting for any old level that takes your fancy. That might not be such a bad thing.
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Fuji Abound
Just a small point. VFR-on-top is perfectly legal in the UK. The licence condition that prevents it is a totally different issue. If you're flying on an FAA licence, for example, it's not a problem.
Just a small point. VFR-on-top is perfectly legal in the UK. The licence condition that prevents it is a totally different issue. If you're flying on an FAA licence, for example, it's not a problem.
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I know in the detail of your post you get to the UK rules. But as a headline the UK has an exceptionally unusual approach to IFR.
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Fuji Abound - thanks for that info.
I appreciate the rules are different. But...
There would be no point for a vanilla PPL to "file" IFR if night VFR was allowed in the UK, and if it had VFR cruising levels
I appreciate the rules are different. But...
All this possibly begs the question of why would a vanilla PPL "file" IFR. Well, he has no alternative if he wishes to fly at night (which was the point of this thread). However there is also a purpose during the day.
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Hmmm... night flying in Ireland has one obvious drawback, which I haven't cracked yet. What's your alternate and how do you get there legally?
It's very nice though. You have the sky to yourself :-)
It's very nice though. You have the sky to yourself :-)
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Pilotincommand
We were discussing a UK pilot, flying a G reg aircraft - that was the context.
Mm-flynn
Again in context my text was directed at the world being the same in what is meant by IFR and VFR in relation to flight rules and met conditions. I agree the UK is exceptional in the way they depart from who may do what when.
Soaringhigh650
Correct, but within the context of the rules these are the only advantages of which I can think.
We were discussing a UK pilot, flying a G reg aircraft - that was the context.
Mm-flynn
Again in context my text was directed at the world being the same in what is meant by IFR and VFR in relation to flight rules and met conditions. I agree the UK is exceptional in the way they depart from who may do what when.
Soaringhigh650
Correct, but within the context of the rules these are the only advantages of which I can think.
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Fuji Abound
The comment I made is valid in a G-reg. It is also valid for a UK pilot provided they have a licence that allows it, so a UK pilot that has an FAA licence, or any other licence that doesn't have an "in sight of the surface" restriction, can happily fly VFR-on-top in the UK and in a G-reg.
That may well change with EASA but that's another story.
The comment I made is valid in a G-reg. It is also valid for a UK pilot provided they have a licence that allows it, so a UK pilot that has an FAA licence, or any other licence that doesn't have an "in sight of the surface" restriction, can happily fly VFR-on-top in the UK and in a G-reg.
That may well change with EASA but that's another story.
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Agreed - but not on a UK CAA license. Can he do so on a 61.75 - I guess not. On a stand alone FAA, a JAA without the in sight restriction etc I agree its not an issue. We (the UK and CAA) are probably one of the few to not recognise the concept of VFR on top.
While we are at it, the UK also has no concept of VFR on top. It doesnt exist. If you are on top of a solid undercast you must be IFR even if the conditions are 50K wall to wall blue. Moreover if you are an old CAA vanilla PPL you shouldnt be there because you cant see the gorund. If you had a French vanilla PPL then you could.
As to my original comment it was badly worded. I meant that in the UK for a UK CAA pilot there is no concept of VFR on top because that implies a vanilla UK PPL flying above a solid undercast VFR. Even if he got their legally the flight becomes strictly illegal as soon as he can longer see the surface. As I said I agree a FAA vanilla PPL could call VFR on top as could a CAA IR pilot. In the first instance this is a common call to hear in the States in the second instance I suspect the pilot would simply say he is VFR or IFR (pretty much as the mood took) because it is irrelevant to him and the controller if their is a solid undercast beneath.
In other words to me, rightly or wrongly, VFR on top implies I am here because I dont have an IR but I can maintain VMC above the tops.
While we are at it, the UK also has no concept of VFR on top. It doesnt exist. If you are on top of a solid undercast you must be IFR even if the conditions are 50K wall to wall blue. Moreover if you are an old CAA vanilla PPL you shouldnt be there because you cant see the gorund. If you had a French vanilla PPL then you could.
As to my original comment it was badly worded. I meant that in the UK for a UK CAA pilot there is no concept of VFR on top because that implies a vanilla UK PPL flying above a solid undercast VFR. Even if he got their legally the flight becomes strictly illegal as soon as he can longer see the surface. As I said I agree a FAA vanilla PPL could call VFR on top as could a CAA IR pilot. In the first instance this is a common call to hear in the States in the second instance I suspect the pilot would simply say he is VFR or IFR (pretty much as the mood took) because it is irrelevant to him and the controller if their is a solid undercast beneath.
In other words to me, rightly or wrongly, VFR on top implies I am here because I dont have an IR but I can maintain VMC above the tops.
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Fuji
"Vfr on top" as used on the radio in the US is actually a form of IFR clearance (just as "cleared for the visual approach" is).
However flying VFR above a cloud deck is just VFR. VFR in all countries (that allow VFR) includes flying above an overcast. The UK CAA recognize this just like everyone else. The only difference is that they say a UK PPL is not allowed to do this.
"Vfr on top" as used on the radio in the US is actually a form of IFR clearance (just as "cleared for the visual approach" is).
However flying VFR above a cloud deck is just VFR. VFR in all countries (that allow VFR) includes flying above an overcast. The UK CAA recognize this just like everyone else. The only difference is that they say a UK PPL is not allowed to do this.
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OK - point taken vfr on top or vfr over the top, but in the UK the call I have heard is VFR on top and the rest of Europe thinks in terms of their being VFR on top - presumably meaning I am in vmc above a cloud base. I have never heard VFR over the top in the UK.
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In Europe you just say "VFR"; forget about reporting any cloud below you.
All that ATC cares about is whether you are VFR or IFR because that determines the separation rules etc. They can't see you; most of them don't even have a window... and the wx outside their hut could be BKN002.
Occassionally, if they smell a rat, they will say "G-XXXX confirm you are VMC" so you reply "Affirm".
I have flown VMC on top to the further corners of Europe, pre-IR. In fact all my long VFR trips would have been impossible without VMC on top. Or, at least, they would have taken much longer, with shorter legs etc. To potter along below the cloud for any real distance, you would need to be retired
All that ATC cares about is whether you are VFR or IFR because that determines the separation rules etc. They can't see you; most of them don't even have a window... and the wx outside their hut could be BKN002.
Occassionally, if they smell a rat, they will say "G-XXXX confirm you are VMC" so you reply "Affirm".
I have flown VMC on top to the further corners of Europe, pre-IR. In fact all my long VFR trips would have been impossible without VMC on top. Or, at least, they would have taken much longer, with shorter legs etc. To potter along below the cloud for any real distance, you would need to be retired
In UK there is no VFR at night....
I suspect the UK system, where a plain PPL is able to fly IFR if the actual conditions are VMC, was done that way to enable night flight.
IFR is simply compliance with two Rules:
(2) For flights outside controlled airspace rules 33 and 34 shall be the Instrument Flight
Rules.
Rules.
Holders of a JAA PPL, CPL and ATPL are subject to the provisions of JAR-FCL 1.175;
(2) The licence is subject to the conditions and restrictions specified in paragraph 1.175 of Section 1 of JAR–FCL 1.
