No IMC rating or IR - what flight rules to file for night flight to Northern Ireland
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No IMC rating or IR - what flight rules to file for night flight to Northern Ireland
Title pretty much says it all,
I am CPL, but may as well be considered PPL + Night Qual, and have an upcoming flight from England to Northern Ireland which will be conducted at night.
My query - in the flight plan (which I must file as crossing an FIR), what flight rules do I file under? It can't be VFR, as taking place at night. But I can't file for IFR, as I am not IMC rated and I don't hold an IR...
Along a similar vein, what would the situation be if I wanted to fly to the Republic Of Ireland, taking off at night in the UK and landing during day hours in ROI? Logic would dictate filing a 'Y' flight plan, but again, I cannot, not having the required ratings.
It seems to me that the flight itself is 100% legal but it's impossible for me to (legally) file a flight plan?
Many thanks for the help.
I am CPL, but may as well be considered PPL + Night Qual, and have an upcoming flight from England to Northern Ireland which will be conducted at night.
My query - in the flight plan (which I must file as crossing an FIR), what flight rules do I file under? It can't be VFR, as taking place at night. But I can't file for IFR, as I am not IMC rated and I don't hold an IR...
Along a similar vein, what would the situation be if I wanted to fly to the Republic Of Ireland, taking off at night in the UK and landing during day hours in ROI? Logic would dictate filing a 'Y' flight plan, but again, I cannot, not having the required ratings.
It seems to me that the flight itself is 100% legal but it's impossible for me to (legally) file a flight plan?
Many thanks for the help.
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I think you are making the common mistake of confusing the flight rules with the met. conditions. You are probably aware that you can operate in accordance with IFR while maintaining VMC and so as long as you maintain VMC your flight is entirely legal without an IR or IMCr OCAS. You would therefore file I for IFR. A problem is if the flight starts or ends in class D or a class D transit is required then the only mechanism for achieving this at night is by requesting a SVFR transit. So far as the FP is concerned advance notification shoudl be given in box 15 indicating the transit and intended time of transit.
I guess this could be an issue because if your destination is in class D you have no way of knowing whether the SVFR segement will be granted - the fact it is on the FP guarantees nothing I would guess. A 'phone call in advance would seem to make sense or in the alternative have a non class D destination as your alternative.
Of course if you cant maintain VMC you have a problem, but then you would have a problem night or day. That said the thought of a longish sea crossing at night (possibly a dark night with an overcast) woudl be of concern to me without an IR or IMCr as you might just as well be flying on instruments or at least be assured you had the skills to do so. Second only to IMC night (and day) I think night flying has the highest risk associated.
As to the second part of your question I think, if I am correct, the answer is already apparent. It would be a Y plan with the first part legal because you can file IFR without an IR in the UK, and as long as you transition to day by or before the FIR the FP becomes a normal VFR plan. The same flight could not be conducted originating outside the UK because the rest of the world has little concept of flying IFR without an IR even in VMC - so you are stuffed!
I guess this could be an issue because if your destination is in class D you have no way of knowing whether the SVFR segement will be granted - the fact it is on the FP guarantees nothing I would guess. A 'phone call in advance would seem to make sense or in the alternative have a non class D destination as your alternative.
Of course if you cant maintain VMC you have a problem, but then you would have a problem night or day. That said the thought of a longish sea crossing at night (possibly a dark night with an overcast) woudl be of concern to me without an IR or IMCr as you might just as well be flying on instruments or at least be assured you had the skills to do so. Second only to IMC night (and day) I think night flying has the highest risk associated.
As to the second part of your question I think, if I am correct, the answer is already apparent. It would be a Y plan with the first part legal because you can file IFR without an IR in the UK, and as long as you transition to day by or before the FIR the FP becomes a normal VFR plan. The same flight could not be conducted originating outside the UK because the rest of the world has little concept of flying IFR without an IR even in VMC - so you are stuffed!
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Your profile gives your location as Dublin. Are you attempting to do the flight from England to NI in an EI reg aircraft?
If so you will need an IR to fly under IFR, on a strict reading of the regs. Not too sure if the IAA would be bothered by that though.
dp
If so you will need an IR to fly under IFR, on a strict reading of the regs. Not too sure if the IAA would be bothered by that though.
dp
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You can file Y and fly IFR at night in UK airspace and land in Ireland under VFR, it's just formality. The UK requires observance of IFR at night but permits non IR pilots to fly IFR in VMC. Most other countries will allow night VFR under stated conditions and I don't Ireland's rules off the top of my head. However, ratings or not, I wouldn't even contemplate the night flight without at least some reasonable competence on instruments.
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Can't one file a V flight plan for a night flight in the UK?
I doubt anybody cares over here. You could stick a waypoint of Kathmandu on a V flight plan and nobody would notice. VFR flight plans are not checked for validity.
I doubt anybody cares over here. You could stick a waypoint of Kathmandu on a V flight plan and nobody would notice. VFR flight plans are not checked for validity.
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Out of curiosity, I just checked the Irish AIP, and it looks like they've got the same rule structure as the UK.
From the Irish AIP (ENR 1.2):
The thing I can't find though, is whether you can legally fly at night in Ireland under IFR rules (but in VMC conditions) without holding an IR. No such mention in the AIP, as far as I can see. So it looks like your flight will be impossible, legally speaking.
Not that much different in the Netherlands, by the way.
From the Irish AIP (ENR 1.2):
2.8. VFR Flights at Night
2.8.1. VFR flights at night operated in a control zone shall be operated as special VFR flights subject to a
clearance from the air traffic control unit responsible for that zone and elsewhere in accordance with the
conditions prescribed by the Authority or, in any other state, the appropriate ATS authority;
2.8.2. Special VFR flights at night authorised in a control zone may only operate to or from aerodromes or
heliports suitably equipped for night operations;
2.8.3. Flights by night outside a control zone shall be operated as IFR flights in accordance with Part IV of the
Rules in this Order unless otherwise prescribed or authorised by the Authority.
2.8.1. VFR flights at night operated in a control zone shall be operated as special VFR flights subject to a
clearance from the air traffic control unit responsible for that zone and elsewhere in accordance with the
conditions prescribed by the Authority or, in any other state, the appropriate ATS authority;
2.8.2. Special VFR flights at night authorised in a control zone may only operate to or from aerodromes or
heliports suitably equipped for night operations;
2.8.3. Flights by night outside a control zone shall be operated as IFR flights in accordance with Part IV of the
Rules in this Order unless otherwise prescribed or authorised by the Authority.
Not that much different in the Netherlands, by the way.
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mm_flynn is correct.
To fly under IFR in Ireland you need an IR.
At night the only sort of VFR that is available is SVFR, which is only available in a control zone. Not much night GA here!
dp
To fly under IFR in Ireland you need an IR.
At night the only sort of VFR that is available is SVFR, which is only available in a control zone. Not much night GA here!
dp
Avoid imitations
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In UK there is no VFR at night....
Quote from CAP 393:
Quote from CAP 393:
Choice of VFR or IFR
20 (1) Subject to paragraph (2) an aircraft shall always be flown in accordance with the Visual Flight Rules or the Instrument Flight Rules.
(2) In the United Kingdom an aircraft flying at night shall:
(a) be flown in accordance with the Instrument Flight Rules outside a control zone;
(b) be flown in accordance with the Instrument Flight Rules in a control zone unless it is flying on a special VFR flight.
20 (1) Subject to paragraph (2) an aircraft shall always be flown in accordance with the Visual Flight Rules or the Instrument Flight Rules.
(2) In the United Kingdom an aircraft flying at night shall:
(a) be flown in accordance with the Instrument Flight Rules outside a control zone;
(b) be flown in accordance with the Instrument Flight Rules in a control zone unless it is flying on a special VFR flight.
Last edited by ShyTorque; 10th Oct 2010 at 22:26.
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Cant you fly VFR at night? Thats what the Night Qualification is all about?
It makes if interesting night cross country flights as part of the night qualification training
Can't exactly go very far on the cross country!The other thing to rememeber is that the requirement for an IR to fly under IFR, applies to the pilot of an Irish registered aircraft, or any aircraft over the Irish state.
So an Irish licenced pilot flying a non Irish registered aircraft, outside the Irish state, may be able to make better use of their Night Qualification.
Whether the IAA would care about someone flying an Irish registered aircraft at night in a country such as the UK, I've no idea, but the regulations would seem to prohibit it.
With a bit of luck, this might change under EASA.....
dp
From JAR-FCL 1.175
(b) In JAA Member States where national
legislation requires flight in accordance with IFR
under specified circumstances (e.g. at night),
the holder of a pilot licence may fly under IFR,
provided that pilot holds a qualification
appropriate to the circumstances, airspace and
flight conditions in which the flight is conducted.
National qualifications permitting pilots to fly in
accordance with IFR other than in VMC without
being the holder of a valid IR(A) shall be
restricted to use of the airspace of the State of
licence issue only.
legislation requires flight in accordance with IFR
under specified circumstances (e.g. at night),
the holder of a pilot licence may fly under IFR,
provided that pilot holds a qualification
appropriate to the circumstances, airspace and
flight conditions in which the flight is conducted.
National qualifications permitting pilots to fly in
accordance with IFR other than in VMC without
being the holder of a valid IR(A) shall be
restricted to use of the airspace of the State of
licence issue only.
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Many thanks for the replies so far, and my apologies for not coming back sooner.
Just to clear up a little - this flight will be undertaken in a G registered aeroplane, flying from England to NORTHERN Ireland, where the night qualification is recognised.
Really what my question was getting at may be helped if I give another example, leaving Ireland out of the equation entirely -
Say I wanted to fly (at night) from an airfield in Southern England to, for instance, Oban, assuming in this fantasy world that Oban had the required lighting installed. This crosses an FIR boundary, and would thus require a flight plan. We can now isolate whether it's legal or illegal to make the flight itself, but what would we file within the flight plan? All countries (England and Scotland) along route recognise the night qualification, so that's sorted. But what conditions exactly would you file the flight plan for, in my situation?
Or technically speaking, am I allowed to file an IFR flight plan so long as the only reason for this is persuant to the exercising of my night privileges?
Somebody mentioned in an earlier post that somebody who doesn't hold an IMCR or IR may file for IFR conditions, as this is separating weather from licensing. I only bring this up as I've always been under the impression flying IFR (flight planned, in practice or otherwise), is illegal when one does not hold the additional rating(s), as by telling the enroute ATSOs you are IFR is basically telling them you are competent to follow instructions whilst in IMC, and also that you are trained in IFR letdown procedures and are competent to do so.
I stand by to be corrected, however - my understanding as it lays is based on my flying experiences to date, and this has never been a point that's reared its ugly head before!
Many thanks to all
Just to clear up a little - this flight will be undertaken in a G registered aeroplane, flying from England to NORTHERN Ireland, where the night qualification is recognised.
Really what my question was getting at may be helped if I give another example, leaving Ireland out of the equation entirely -
Say I wanted to fly (at night) from an airfield in Southern England to, for instance, Oban, assuming in this fantasy world that Oban had the required lighting installed. This crosses an FIR boundary, and would thus require a flight plan. We can now isolate whether it's legal or illegal to make the flight itself, but what would we file within the flight plan? All countries (England and Scotland) along route recognise the night qualification, so that's sorted. But what conditions exactly would you file the flight plan for, in my situation?
Or technically speaking, am I allowed to file an IFR flight plan so long as the only reason for this is persuant to the exercising of my night privileges?
Somebody mentioned in an earlier post that somebody who doesn't hold an IMCR or IR may file for IFR conditions, as this is separating weather from licensing. I only bring this up as I've always been under the impression flying IFR (flight planned, in practice or otherwise), is illegal when one does not hold the additional rating(s), as by telling the enroute ATSOs you are IFR is basically telling them you are competent to follow instructions whilst in IMC, and also that you are trained in IFR letdown procedures and are competent to do so.
I stand by to be corrected, however - my understanding as it lays is based on my flying experiences to date, and this has never been a point that's reared its ugly head before!
Many thanks to all
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1.175 still doesn't help in Ireland. it seems to be specifically directed to the UK, where a PPL IS allowed to fly IFR. Almost everywhere else a PPL IS NOT allowed to fly IFR.
I believe FCL 1.175 does however allow a night qualified Irish PPL to fly at night in the UK.
The UK's night IFR rule is one of the most barking rules ever dreamed up!
I believe FCL 1.175 does however allow a night qualified Irish PPL to fly at night in the UK.
The UK's night IFR rule is one of the most barking rules ever dreamed up!
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Further comment to HB
You do not need to file a flight plan across that particular FIR boundary, in general it is only flights across an international FIR that require one.
However, if you were flyi g from France to the UK at night, yes you would file a mikes fligtplan with the IFR transition at the FIR. And yes the French will reject a straight VFR plan. To my knowledge there is nothing at all that forbids a UK PPL from filing an IFR flight plan, after all they are allowed to fly IFR after all! So long as the plan complies with licence limits (I.e. Doesn't enter controlled airspace and doesn't have you IFR outside the UK)
You do not need to file a flight plan across that particular FIR boundary, in general it is only flights across an international FIR that require one.
However, if you were flyi g from France to the UK at night, yes you would file a mikes fligtplan with the IFR transition at the FIR. And yes the French will reject a straight VFR plan. To my knowledge there is nothing at all that forbids a UK PPL from filing an IFR flight plan, after all they are allowed to fly IFR after all! So long as the plan complies with licence limits (I.e. Doesn't enter controlled airspace and doesn't have you IFR outside the UK)
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Halfbacked Boy
See my first answer.
In the UK ANYONE can fly / file IFR OCAS, what you cant do is enter IMC, it is that simple. Yes, you are saying that you will abide by instrument flight rules BUT you cannot enter IMC so if you were given vectors into IMC you must decline.
What ATSOs may think is a matter for them - I suspect some fully understand the position - however if it is apparent they dont you should indicate that you cannot accept instructions which would mean you were not in VMC and you cannot accept and IAP. I see not reason why you should not say "I am IFR but wishing to maintain VMC".
Practically you are only ever likely to be given isntructions when inside a control zone (class D) and while there are a few IAPs outside class D these are few and far between. Inside class D your clearance will be SVFR (see before) so the ATSOs will know that you wish to maintain VMC.
Does that make sense?
Somebody mentioned in an earlier post that somebody who doesn't hold an IMCR or IR may file for IFR conditions, as this is separating weather from licensing. I only bring this up as I've always been under the impression flying IFR (flight planned, in practice or otherwise), is illegal when one does not hold the additional rating(s), as by telling the enroute ATSOs you are IFR is basically telling them you are competent to follow instructions whilst in IMC, and also that you are trained in IFR letdown procedures and are competent to do so.
In the UK ANYONE can fly / file IFR OCAS, what you cant do is enter IMC, it is that simple. Yes, you are saying that you will abide by instrument flight rules BUT you cannot enter IMC so if you were given vectors into IMC you must decline.
What ATSOs may think is a matter for them - I suspect some fully understand the position - however if it is apparent they dont you should indicate that you cannot accept instructions which would mean you were not in VMC and you cannot accept and IAP. I see not reason why you should not say "I am IFR but wishing to maintain VMC".
Practically you are only ever likely to be given isntructions when inside a control zone (class D) and while there are a few IAPs outside class D these are few and far between. Inside class D your clearance will be SVFR (see before) so the ATSOs will know that you wish to maintain VMC.
Does that make sense?
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I don't understand what is so complicated about all this.
This is international practice:
IFR - If you have an IR
File flight plan, takeoff, SID, airway, STAR, IAP, land.
VFR
Optionally file flight plan, takeoff, fly visually, land.
Is the UK just being a bit different?
This is international practice:
IFR - If you have an IR
File flight plan, takeoff, SID, airway, STAR, IAP, land.
VFR
Optionally file flight plan, takeoff, fly visually, land.
Is the UK just being a bit different?