IMC Rating - Latest Update
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IMC Rating - Latest Update
AOPA UK has been given a chance to counter some of the misinformation surrounding the UK’s IMC rating at a special meeting with representatives of EASA, EASA’s FCL008 Working Group, and the UK CAA in Cologne on October 5th.
Two AOPA representatives have been invited to the meeting – Chief Executive Martin Robinson will go, along with Nick Wilcock of the AOPA Instructors Committee. Exactly what form the meeting will take has not been clarified, but at some point – and for the first time – AOPA UK is expected to be given the opportunity to make the case for the IMC rating, and to propose how it may be continued in the UK even after Europe-wide harmonisation.
Full story here.
Two AOPA representatives have been invited to the meeting – Chief Executive Martin Robinson will go, along with Nick Wilcock of the AOPA Instructors Committee. Exactly what form the meeting will take has not been clarified, but at some point – and for the first time – AOPA UK is expected to be given the opportunity to make the case for the IMC rating, and to propose how it may be continued in the UK even after Europe-wide harmonisation.
Full story here.
Last edited by Mike Cross; 7th Oct 2010 at 22:03. Reason: Correction to composition of the meeting
I wish them the beat of luck. In my opinion, the IMC rating has always been the equivalent of an "A Level'' in flying after the "GCSE" PPL and is a natural progression to maikng a safer, more knowledgeable and responsible pilot - regardless of whether it is used in anger or not.
It was heavily promoted to the pilots at one club I instructed at - a club with exceptional standards and an enviable safety record. I won't mention who the CFI was, but he's going to this meeting!
I hope this thread developes into a meaningful discussion. I know one of the chaps will be reading it and it may give him some moral support, and maybe some ideas for the case.
It was heavily promoted to the pilots at one club I instructed at - a club with exceptional standards and an enviable safety record. I won't mention who the CFI was, but he's going to this meeting!
I hope this thread developes into a meaningful discussion. I know one of the chaps will be reading it and it may give him some moral support, and maybe some ideas for the case.
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IMC update
This brief update from AOPA
At a special meeting of EASA, members of the FCL008 Working Group and the UK CAA called in Cologne on Tuesday to discuss the UK IMC rating, EASA agreed as a first step to “grandfather” IMC rating holders for life – which means anyone who gets the rating before EASA takes over responsibility for licensing in April 2012 will be allowed to fly safely under its provisions for as long as they live. AOPA UK, which was invited to an FCL008 meeting for the first time, welcomed the decision but will continue to press for the retention of the IMC rating in order to protect the next generation of pilots as we protect ourselves. In this, AOPA has the support of the UK CAA, which sent its Head of Licensing and Training Policy Cliff Whittaker to join its representative on FCL008, Mike Dobson. Together they made it clear that it is CAA policy to retain the IMC rating. EASA also sent some big beasts to the meeting, including Matthias Borgmeier and Eric Sivel from the Rulemaking Department. EASA’s Notice of Proposed Amendment covering instrument flying is due in January 2011, at which time the precise details of its intentions on the IMC rating will become known. Martin Robinson and Nick Wilcock attended the meeting on behalf of AOPA UK. Afterwards Robinson said: “We welcome the concession, having previously been told it was not possible to grant grandfather rights under EASA, but we will not allow it to take the steam out of the campaign to retain the IMC rating for the safety of all UK pilots present and future.”
A fuller report on the meeting will come from Nick Wilcock shortly.
At a special meeting of EASA, members of the FCL008 Working Group and the UK CAA called in Cologne on Tuesday to discuss the UK IMC rating, EASA agreed as a first step to “grandfather” IMC rating holders for life – which means anyone who gets the rating before EASA takes over responsibility for licensing in April 2012 will be allowed to fly safely under its provisions for as long as they live. AOPA UK, which was invited to an FCL008 meeting for the first time, welcomed the decision but will continue to press for the retention of the IMC rating in order to protect the next generation of pilots as we protect ourselves. In this, AOPA has the support of the UK CAA, which sent its Head of Licensing and Training Policy Cliff Whittaker to join its representative on FCL008, Mike Dobson. Together they made it clear that it is CAA policy to retain the IMC rating. EASA also sent some big beasts to the meeting, including Matthias Borgmeier and Eric Sivel from the Rulemaking Department. EASA’s Notice of Proposed Amendment covering instrument flying is due in January 2011, at which time the precise details of its intentions on the IMC rating will become known. Martin Robinson and Nick Wilcock attended the meeting on behalf of AOPA UK. Afterwards Robinson said: “We welcome the concession, having previously been told it was not possible to grant grandfather rights under EASA, but we will not allow it to take the steam out of the campaign to retain the IMC rating for the safety of all UK pilots present and future.”
A fuller report on the meeting will come from Nick Wilcock shortly.
Last edited by Pat Malone; 6th Oct 2010 at 16:29.
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Pat - that is really great news, and at least one step in the right direction.
It just goes to prove that all those who said the IMCr was dead under EASA and there was no scope for national exceptions were wrong.
Lets hope that is not all they were wrong about.
It just goes to prove that all those who said the IMCr was dead under EASA and there was no scope for national exceptions were wrong.
Lets hope that is not all they were wrong about.
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That is absolutely amazing - but of course if they can leave the Rating valid for life of existing pilots, despite a thousand EASA rules saying this is impossible, then it can remain in place for all the future ones too...
AOPA has taken the view that 'Grandfathering' is possible under the terms of para 5 of Article 4 of the Cover Regulation (Agency Opinion to the NPA 2008-17b Comment Response Document):
This is not the same thing as 'national exceptions'.
However, extending matters beyond this is more difficult for the €urocrats to accept. One recommendation which will be presented to them is the facility to permit Member States to issue 'restricted' IRs with restrictions decided by the Member State in which the IR is intended to be used. Thus in parts of €uroland the 'restricted' IR would be identical to the so-called 'EIR' and in others (such as the UK), the 'restricted' IR would be the UK IMCR by another name. This would also EASA to fulfill the assurance they gave both to the UK CAA and, more significantly, to the European Parliament, in respect of the future of UK IMCR privileges.
When the NPA is released, it is important that individual comments - and emphatically not orchestrated comments - are made. The more the merrier! But if EASA has any sense, then it will ensure that the NPA is as uncontentious as possible by drafting it appropriately in the first place.
5. The scope of the privileges given to pilots whose national pilot licences, including any associated ratings, certificates and/or qualifications are converted into Part-FCL licences and associated ratings or certificates should at least cover the scope of the activities that the pilots are undertaking at the date of entry into force of this Regulation, provided that the safety level is not affected.
However, extending matters beyond this is more difficult for the €urocrats to accept. One recommendation which will be presented to them is the facility to permit Member States to issue 'restricted' IRs with restrictions decided by the Member State in which the IR is intended to be used. Thus in parts of €uroland the 'restricted' IR would be identical to the so-called 'EIR' and in others (such as the UK), the 'restricted' IR would be the UK IMCR by another name. This would also EASA to fulfill the assurance they gave both to the UK CAA and, more significantly, to the European Parliament, in respect of the future of UK IMCR privileges.
When the NPA is released, it is important that individual comments - and emphatically not orchestrated comments - are made. The more the merrier! But if EASA has any sense, then it will ensure that the NPA is as uncontentious as possible by drafting it appropriately in the first place.
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IMC rating
BEAgle:
You're absolutely right in urging everyone to make individual comments when the NPA is released in January. Rarely will a united, large scale response be as important.
The grandfathering issue is not something AOPA has taken a view on; they were as surprised as the CAA representatives when EASA made the grandfathering offer. AOPA has previously been told by both EASA and the CAA that grandfathering was not possible under EASA. As Eric Sivel said to Martin Robinson at Duxford at the AOPA Open Day (while rolling his eyes) "With EASA, anything is possible."
You're absolutely right in urging everyone to make individual comments when the NPA is released in January. Rarely will a united, large scale response be as important.
The grandfathering issue is not something AOPA has taken a view on; they were as surprised as the CAA representatives when EASA made the grandfathering offer. AOPA has previously been told by both EASA and the CAA that grandfathering was not possible under EASA. As Eric Sivel said to Martin Robinson at Duxford at the AOPA Open Day (while rolling his eyes) "With EASA, anything is possible."
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Do the grandfathering proposals allow for continued lifetime privileges of those who have either deliberately or accidentally let their IMC ratings lapse? (subject of course to them being renewed by test as at present) or must the rating be kept valid continuously from inception until death?
I have a lapsed IMCR. Am I a grandfather?
I have a lapsed IMCR. Am I a grandfather?
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I do not see this as good news at all. Firstly what about new pilots after those dates? Under these proposals there will no longer be an IMCR.
All EASA have said is that they have NO intentions of a European IMCR. The IMCR as a live rating will be dead as it will no longer ne in existance.
Those who have held one can carry on with its privalages as EASA will close a blind eye to what goes on over the UK.
That move is indicative that they have NO plans for a future EIR otherwise they would have said wait till our EIR comes out as it wont be far removed from your IMCR.
I do not see this as any sort of victory but a worrying indication that EASA have no intentions for an achievable IR or IMCR in their plans.
Have EASA said we are creating a European IMCR? NO
Have EASA said that the IMCR will continue in the UK? NO Only for existing pilots.
Have EASA said dont bother as we have an achievable IR in the works? NO
Bad news all round
Exterminate Aviation Strangle Aviators
Pace
All EASA have said is that they have NO intentions of a European IMCR. The IMCR as a live rating will be dead as it will no longer ne in existance.
Those who have held one can carry on with its privalages as EASA will close a blind eye to what goes on over the UK.
That move is indicative that they have NO plans for a future EIR otherwise they would have said wait till our EIR comes out as it wont be far removed from your IMCR.
I do not see this as any sort of victory but a worrying indication that EASA have no intentions for an achievable IR or IMCR in their plans.
Have EASA said we are creating a European IMCR? NO
Have EASA said that the IMCR will continue in the UK? NO Only for existing pilots.
Have EASA said dont bother as we have an achievable IR in the works? NO
Bad news all round
Exterminate Aviation Strangle Aviators
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 6th Oct 2010 at 23:53.
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Unfortunately, have to agree with PACE here. Throw a little bone to the Brits and let 'em chew on it. In the wider context of GA in the EU, the UK IMCr is totally irrelevant.
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GA in the EU, the UK IMCr is totally irrelevant.
The flying clubs will have no IMCR rating to sell and hence there will be even less revenue to those clubs.
There is a solution and that is that the CAA make it clear we are having one regardless and will continue to support the IMCR in the UK as well as issuing ratings.
The French are the first to ignore regulations they dont approve of and shout until they are heard and I commend them for that why are we in the uk so compliant to everything that comes out of Brussels.
We have a different currency shame we dont become a 3rd country too
and go back to the good old CAA Pace
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The IMCR was never relevant to Europe, because its IFR privileges have always limited to UK airspace.
Its possession allowed UK issued PPLs to fly VFR without sight of surface (above an overcast e.g.) worldwide, but most (all?) European PPLs can do that anyway.
The issue with the IMCR has been that EASA had taken the position that Europe must be standardised.
This is just circular-definition bollox. It's like me saying to a 5 year old he can't have the ice cream because I say so and I am bigger than he is.
Once you accept deviations in local airspace, and there is absolutely no rational argument against doing that, the whole issue goes away.
Its possession allowed UK issued PPLs to fly VFR without sight of surface (above an overcast e.g.) worldwide, but most (all?) European PPLs can do that anyway.
The issue with the IMCR has been that EASA had taken the position that Europe must be standardised.
This is just circular-definition bollox. It's like me saying to a 5 year old he can't have the ice cream because I say so and I am bigger than he is.
Once you accept deviations in local airspace, and there is absolutely no rational argument against doing that, the whole issue goes away.
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Once you accept deviations in local airspace, and there is absolutely no rational argument against doing that, the whole issue goes away.
If deviation in local airspace was accepted then there would be no talk of the IMCR being abolished after X date with existing IMCR holders allowed to continue.
At the base of all this was the fact that the IMCR has been proved to be a safety rating for VFR pilots and there was a desire to extend its privalages and safety benefits into Europe as well as some of its IFR privalages OCAS.
That was turned down by EASA with vague hints at a more achievable IR instead.
For me the fact that EASA has held to its guns on ABOLISHING the IMCR so that it is effectively dead for future or new pilots is more worrying.
Had they any intentions of creating a significantly more achievable PPL IR for Europe they would have let the IMCR run till that came out.
All that has happened is that they have ABOLISHED the IMCR and thrown a few crumbs to existing holders to continue within UK airspace.
Reality dictates that EASA have killed the IMCR through the back door.
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 7th Oct 2010 at 08:21.
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This is very good news (the grandfathering of the IMCr). IF the new EIR comes in, I suspect that IMCr or FAA IR holders will get credit towards it and this really means that a once IMCr *only* holder can now fly full blown IFR around the UK and *back* from Europe. The grandfathering of the IMCr allows IMCr holders to fly IAPs in Class D and below, and the EIR will allow "access to all classes of airspace" i.e. airways IFR. For the private pilot, this seems like a very good situation.
I have just renewed mine through an FAA IPC as I could see something like this on the cards, which means come 07/2012 I'll be an IMCr holder. I'd recommend that anyone thinking of doing an IMCr do so asap....
I have just renewed mine through an FAA IPC as I could see something like this on the cards, which means come 07/2012 I'll be an IMCr holder. I'd recommend that anyone thinking of doing an IMCr do so asap....