Attitude for speed ???
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I know a lass who actually landed her Tripacer in the width of Finningley's runway when visiting the airshow in a strong cross-wind!
Question... has your call sign got any connection with British Eagle?
I remember their Britannias and one elevens when I was initially learning at Speke Airport.
Question... has your call sign got any connection with British Eagle?
I remember their Britannias and one elevens when I was initially learning at Speke Airport.
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as regards pwr for height attitude for airspeed I suggest we listen to EL CID & SKY VAN I defy any of you with new ideas when caught in 3 or 4 hundred ft, a min sink on the approach in a tiddler to apply the attitude for height method it dont work do it.Its horses for courses and those of you who have gone on to bigger a/c and learned different methods should remember that! As for Low&Slow and crosswinds I agree in general terms, but always rember the wing down method requires much more accurate flying abilities than the crabing method.So it it depends on a/c type pilot ability etc.Lets throw this in to the pot who increases airspeed for a crosswind app. and why? I picked an ex RAF a/c yesterday and the FRCs. said for a crosswind increase a/s by 5 kts. Why if the aircraft flys at 70 kts on the app. increasing a/s only increases groundspeed and float during the hold off ops! broken aircraft!!
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I have intentionally left this one alone for the last few days but in the end I couldn't resist (:
On every approach in windy conditions I increase my airspeed. This is irrespective of whether the wind is down the runway or across.
I have landed a single engined aircraft in 30 knots plus.
I remember that I am in a low mass airplane and have also had some gliding experience. I am aware of the phenomenon of "wind gradient" and wish to compensate for this by putting a bit more speed on.
I also adjust my flap settings... if the wind is reasonably down the runway I let the angle of windsock (VOR...Visible Orange Rag) dictate the angle of flap on approach.
In Xwinds I rarely deploy more than 10 degrees... along with a little more speed.
It works for me I suppose...
Sounds like you have got a Bulldog... please tell us more and how you get along with it... lucky so and so!
On every approach in windy conditions I increase my airspeed. This is irrespective of whether the wind is down the runway or across.
I have landed a single engined aircraft in 30 knots plus.
I remember that I am in a low mass airplane and have also had some gliding experience. I am aware of the phenomenon of "wind gradient" and wish to compensate for this by putting a bit more speed on.
I also adjust my flap settings... if the wind is reasonably down the runway I let the angle of windsock (VOR...Visible Orange Rag) dictate the angle of flap on approach.
In Xwinds I rarely deploy more than 10 degrees... along with a little more speed.
It works for me I suppose...
Sounds like you have got a Bulldog... please tell us more and how you get along with it... lucky so and so!
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If you fly a modern certified aeroplane it can be expected to exhibit normal (unreversed) aileron control up to and during the recovery form the stall. See
http://www.jaa.nl/jar/jar/jar/jar.23.23.201.htm
Of course this may not be the case on an older aircraft or homebuilt!
http://www.jaa.nl/jar/jar/jar/jar.23.23.201.htm
Of course this may not be the case on an older aircraft or homebuilt!
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Just my thoughts.
I flew the Grob 109B as an instructor for an Air Cadet VGS unit and we always used the rudder to pick up a dropping wing close to the stall. I now mainly fly a C172 but I was also taught to use rudder during my PPL training and that is the method I have always used since. I will however quote the passage on "Use of Controls Before the stall" from my Oxford ATPL notes:-
"It is important that the stall should occur with the wings level and that the controls may be used on the approach to the stall to ensure this. Because of the low speed, the controls will be relatively ineffective.
However it should be remembered that moving a control surface modifies the chord line and hence the angle of attack. If an aileron is moved down to raise the wing, the increase in angle of attack may cause the wing to stall, resulting in that wing dropping. Near to the stall the rudder may be used to lift a wing by increasing its speed as a result of yawing. The rudder must be centralised before the stall otherwise a spin could develop after the stall."
Basically this says to me that rudder is safer close to the stall as when you use the ailerons you are actually increasing the AOA due to the altered chord line and this could easily be increased past the point of stalling AOA. With the rudder however you are increasing the dynamic pressure(speed) of the air flowing over the wing and thus producing more lift which causes the wing to pick up.
Just my tuppence worth, interesting reading though.
Regards
UA
I flew the Grob 109B as an instructor for an Air Cadet VGS unit and we always used the rudder to pick up a dropping wing close to the stall. I now mainly fly a C172 but I was also taught to use rudder during my PPL training and that is the method I have always used since. I will however quote the passage on "Use of Controls Before the stall" from my Oxford ATPL notes:-
"It is important that the stall should occur with the wings level and that the controls may be used on the approach to the stall to ensure this. Because of the low speed, the controls will be relatively ineffective.
However it should be remembered that moving a control surface modifies the chord line and hence the angle of attack. If an aileron is moved down to raise the wing, the increase in angle of attack may cause the wing to stall, resulting in that wing dropping. Near to the stall the rudder may be used to lift a wing by increasing its speed as a result of yawing. The rudder must be centralised before the stall otherwise a spin could develop after the stall."
Basically this says to me that rudder is safer close to the stall as when you use the ailerons you are actually increasing the AOA due to the altered chord line and this could easily be increased past the point of stalling AOA. With the rudder however you are increasing the dynamic pressure(speed) of the air flowing over the wing and thus producing more lift which causes the wing to pick up.
Just my tuppence worth, interesting reading though.
Regards
UA
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Hi Beagler there is a lot of sense comming out of this thred, yes I agree both as a glider pilot and little airoplane driver of almost 30 years,lets add a bit of knottage if its windy my best attempt was 53 knots @ 30 off the active in a 152. still here though.If its livley and x/wind sure lets add a bit but, the point I am making is say 15 kts. steady x/wind at 30-45 off shouldnt require more a/s less flap maybe if its a high winger where rudder control is at a premium. agree? well thats my bit I havent scratched one yet and YES it was a Bulldog. got to flight test it too when ready!! Ha Ha it does wonderful things.Wanted to get my hands on one 4 years.
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Just going back to the original question and the suggestion that all schools in Australia teach attitude for speed. Can't agree I'm afraid. The one I did my CPL training with and subsequently worked at taught the opposite.
The school that did teach attitude for speed was that at which I did my PPL in the UK (in a Super Cub).
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Tip for the day:-
Nil coitus sursum
The school that did teach attitude for speed was that at which I did my PPL in the UK (in a Super Cub).
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Tip for the day:-
Nil coitus sursum
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Fallen Eagle...
That gives a 10 Kt X wind component.
Yes I would agree with you but any more and I think that I would want to start to change things.
The Pup is very good in X winds... I put that down to the "feel" of a proper stick and rudder as well as a good design.
A 70 kt aproach on a reasonable runway length seems to work bleeding the power off as I come over the fence.
Where is the Bulldog based?
Let us know about the flying tests.
That gives a 10 Kt X wind component.
Yes I would agree with you but any more and I think that I would want to start to change things.
The Pup is very good in X winds... I put that down to the "feel" of a proper stick and rudder as well as a good design.
A 70 kt aproach on a reasonable runway length seems to work bleeding the power off as I come over the fence.
Where is the Bulldog based?
Let us know about the flying tests.
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Yes Beagler I agree, the dog is at Elmsett Suffolk at the present owner in far east and not had a visual on it yet.I understand that to demod, from R.A.F. spec to civvy is going to be a major problem.Lots of £££s I believe this particulr a/c to have a long stress life of 1000 hours left before spar mods of £25,000.Bae are looking at costing the civvy mods ouch could be months before a good wring out occurs.Bye my name is Martin feel free to E-mail me if u wish BYE.
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I do enjoy the Pup... the group forbids aeros
in order to extend the airframe life (6000 and counting) but she still has that "little fighter" feel.
Would I be right in assuming that the Dogs have been thrashed?
1000 hours is only half a Lycoming!
25K is a lot of anyones money... unless a pitance was paid.
Wouldn't mind dropping in at Elmsett some time.
Geoff
in order to extend the airframe life (6000 and counting) but she still has that "little fighter" feel.
Would I be right in assuming that the Dogs have been thrashed?
1000 hours is only half a Lycoming!
25K is a lot of anyones money... unless a pitance was paid.
Wouldn't mind dropping in at Elmsett some time.
Geoff
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Beagler(Geoff) I dont think I dare tell you the cost of a dog you would foam at the mouth and want one yesterday. Pup no aeros.= travesty.Why not visit Elmsett V/good maintainence org.tel 01473824944. Take in Crowfield 10 nm N.EAST at same time bfn. M.
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I have spent a long time pondering the pros and cons of "point and power" since this thread began and as I have never been one to condemn something out of hand,I thought I would give it a go.Saturday was the first chance I had to go flying and I decided to try it on my first circuit and what a difference it makes,I am amazed! It was the easiest,stress-free landing I had ever made!No more dificult than driving a car downhill at a constant speed.
I think one of the main points of contention though is that I still believe that power should be the lead control for CHANGING height,be it a climb or descent,but the technique of using elevator to MAINTAIN an approach path is very easy and natural indeed.After all,why should it be any different from flying straight and level?Imagine how difficult it would be to maintain steady straight and level flight if we adopted power for the maintenance of the flight path.
The aircraft seemed to react much more predictably to the use of throttle for speed whereas previously if I was 5 knots too slow on the approach I would lower the nose and wait forever for the speed to rise and when it did,I was undershooting and needing power.I think the elevators can be used almost to an imperceptable degree to attain a steady approach path and it is possible to do it unconciously unlike power.
All in all,I am a convert to this method although I have to say as in my previous postings,students MUST be taught to lead with the throttle if an unexpected sink develops.
I am sure I would have gone first solo in a few hours if I had been taught this method early on,as one of the things I never used to like was the feeling of being a "passenger" on finals,as I used to feel using my old method.This new method is seems much more pro-active in making the plane go where you want it rather than sitting there wondering what it is going to do and only doing something when an error develops.This way gets rid of one of the factors,that of glide slope error and that has got to be a good thing.
El Cid
I think one of the main points of contention though is that I still believe that power should be the lead control for CHANGING height,be it a climb or descent,but the technique of using elevator to MAINTAIN an approach path is very easy and natural indeed.After all,why should it be any different from flying straight and level?Imagine how difficult it would be to maintain steady straight and level flight if we adopted power for the maintenance of the flight path.
The aircraft seemed to react much more predictably to the use of throttle for speed whereas previously if I was 5 knots too slow on the approach I would lower the nose and wait forever for the speed to rise and when it did,I was undershooting and needing power.I think the elevators can be used almost to an imperceptable degree to attain a steady approach path and it is possible to do it unconciously unlike power.
All in all,I am a convert to this method although I have to say as in my previous postings,students MUST be taught to lead with the throttle if an unexpected sink develops.
I am sure I would have gone first solo in a few hours if I had been taught this method early on,as one of the things I never used to like was the feeling of being a "passenger" on finals,as I used to feel using my old method.This new method is seems much more pro-active in making the plane go where you want it rather than sitting there wondering what it is going to do and only doing something when an error develops.This way gets rid of one of the factors,that of glide slope error and that has got to be a good thing.
El Cid
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As a pprune lurker of some months experience I am delighted to see a thread which is appropriate to my own experience and flying. As an ex (very) gliding instructor and Tiger pilot, I re-qualified as a PPL after a 20 year lapse and now find the attitude for speed approach most useful. However, I still have problems with instructors who tell me I am too high on the approach, even though the runway perspective and airspeed are constant. This is because the PAPIS show three whites. In other words I feel safer flying steep approaches (even glide approaches). It seems that many modern instructors are only happy with 3 degree approaches based on the lights. This only applies at suitably equipped airfields of course. Any instructors like to comment?
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I have a couple of hundred hours in various light single, mainly PA28s of various sorts.
Although the abstract debate about power/attitude is valid, in practice in such a simple, lightweight aircraft like the PA28 it is the use of both power and attitude in harmony that seems to deliver the best results for me.
I always thought that the way this subject was taught on the CAA syllabus was not very intuitive.
As on other poster said, it is an issue of parameters, so why present power/attitude as working in isolation, when in reality they do not?
Although the abstract debate about power/attitude is valid, in practice in such a simple, lightweight aircraft like the PA28 it is the use of both power and attitude in harmony that seems to deliver the best results for me.
I always thought that the way this subject was taught on the CAA syllabus was not very intuitive.
As on other poster said, it is an issue of parameters, so why present power/attitude as working in isolation, when in reality they do not?
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Simply because when dealing with people new to flying,it is necessary to break things up into their constituent parts.We cannot hope to teach the FEEL we have for these things.It is not a god given gift,just a realization that comes with experience.Flying is easy,explaining it is not.
El Cid
El Cid
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Pulse 1. I understand what you are saying and it seems to me that you among others have been experiencing instructors who have become used to flying big stuff rather than little stuff. Unfourtunatly the days of the old style private flying club instructional system have almost gone,and though there was always the odd hour builder and C.P.L. teaching on his day off this seems the norm now.This new breed of instructor is perhaps not always so familiar with grass roots flying. I too like a bit of height on final just incase it goes quiet up front, and it has done a couple of times,or more commonly for that wind gradient/shear which is mostly what this thread is about I think bye safe flying.
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Agree totally... if flying a light aircraft onto a runway with PAPIs I am happy to see 3 whites.
Went out today with a new group member as passenger... wanted me to talk through everything as I was doing it... not an instructor but gave it a go.
Went to Old Buckenham on the advice of a previous posting. Dialogue went something like this...
"Aim to get settled on the approach at 70 kts and we'll reduce the power to 1200 as we come over the fence and simply feel her onto the runway."
"I am going to keep my arse out of those haystacks just short of the runway."
"Watching for turbulence and sink as we arrive over the hay bales"
"Bloody hell look at the speed drop"
VROOM
"Made it, now back with the throttle"
THUMP
"The brakes are **** on the Pup so don't delay applying them and use aerodynamic braking"
"Crikey the runways now going downhill... help us step on the brakes"
New member "I see what you mean about the brakes"
Enjoyed my stay at the airfield, cracking good omlette and friendly people.
Why did I apply power... to arrest excesive sink I suppose.
Will land uphill in such still conditions next time (:
B
Went out today with a new group member as passenger... wanted me to talk through everything as I was doing it... not an instructor but gave it a go.
Went to Old Buckenham on the advice of a previous posting. Dialogue went something like this...
"Aim to get settled on the approach at 70 kts and we'll reduce the power to 1200 as we come over the fence and simply feel her onto the runway."
"I am going to keep my arse out of those haystacks just short of the runway."
"Watching for turbulence and sink as we arrive over the hay bales"
"Bloody hell look at the speed drop"
VROOM
"Made it, now back with the throttle"
THUMP
"The brakes are **** on the Pup so don't delay applying them and use aerodynamic braking"
"Crikey the runways now going downhill... help us step on the brakes"
New member "I see what you mean about the brakes"
Enjoyed my stay at the airfield, cracking good omlette and friendly people.
Why did I apply power... to arrest excesive sink I suppose.
Will land uphill in such still conditions next time (:
B
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Beagler, the brakes on the dog are no good either so guess you would not want one after reading your last posting. well you almost made it to Suffolk,Old Buck is good enough I wondered why they had haystacks on the undershoot of the westerly r/way.I did not like that app. when flying Stearmans from there.Oh well now you know how the instrutor feels having to patter everything all day long. Glad to hear you had a good trip.BFN.