A lot of pilots leaving the forums
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And which of the many voices would that be? If people on here want to make a difference then join LAA/AOPA and get involved in the thick of it.
Totally agree with you but I wonder how many of the vociferous posters here are actually members of either of the above never mind getting involved in the thick of it? Not many is my guess.
Pace
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Over regulation is the killer for drop out rates.
We all survived for decades prior to Biennial reviews, 90 day rules, annual MEP tests etc, all of which have brought no safety benefit and the increased cost and hassle simply drive people away from GA.
An earlier poster said why have medicals? The NPPL medical declaration has proved its worth (but is now under threat)
I am inclined to agree that the medical contribution to deaths and fatalities is minute, and you stand just as much chance of a heart attack in a car on the motorway where the consequences would more likely kill or injur far more people.
The best possible medical precaution is a natural sense of self preservation.
Trouble is, under EASA things are only going to get worse.
We all survived for decades prior to Biennial reviews, 90 day rules, annual MEP tests etc, all of which have brought no safety benefit and the increased cost and hassle simply drive people away from GA.
An earlier poster said why have medicals? The NPPL medical declaration has proved its worth (but is now under threat)
I am inclined to agree that the medical contribution to deaths and fatalities is minute, and you stand just as much chance of a heart attack in a car on the motorway where the consequences would more likely kill or injur far more people.
The best possible medical precaution is a natural sense of self preservation.
Trouble is, under EASA things are only going to get worse.
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IO will try to use the existing system to produce more IR pilots who can fly from A to B.
An IR is a huge project, meaningless unless one is a [part] owner of a well equipped plane and has the time and money to sink into acquiring the capability and remaining current. You can nearly forget the casual self fly hire scene, for example, in most locations in the UK.
By teaching people to fly from A to B I am referring to the endless posts on the forums, and endless cases I find personally, where a pilot is unable to plan a route from say Goodwood to Norwich. This is inexcusable, since it renders the PPL license virtually worthless. The evident inability of so many fresh PPLs to go anywhere guarantees they will chuck it in almost right away.
You could try to make a case for a lower grade of license which doesn't require planning and navigation, but that doesn't really square up with inconvenient things like controlled airspace... Unfortunately "we" are all in the same boat now.
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The evident inability of so many fresh PPLs to go anywhere guarantees they will chuck it in almost right away.
When I undertook my PPL many moons ago in my naivety I imagined that once I held a shiny PPL I would be able to use an aircraft as I did a car but with the benefit of floating above all the traffic jams below.
Going through my PPL and turning up weekend after weekend only to be told that the winds were too strong, the visibility too low, the clouds too low etc that rose coloured glasses view of aviation soon vanished.
Now I have probably a 95% to 97% reliability factor of getting where I want to go in summer and winter which is probably better than in the car.
An aircraft is a form of transport like any other and has to compete as such to be of practical use.
But to be so the aircraft and the pilot have to be up to dealing with all the weather especially this country throws at them.
For many being a toy which you pull out on a sunny day is not enough!
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A lot of interesting themes here IO. To go back to your original question of why fewer "serious" threads.
I think there may be a number of themes at work. One has been identified as the one-off nature of internet forums being a "new" thing that many people got involved with, but over time, as with many new things, interest wanes and people drift away.
Another theme may coincide with the emergence of Internet pilot fora in the last decade. The 2000s were a period of change in GA, after a fairly stagnant period in the 90s. There were simply a lot of "serious" new topics to discuss
- new aircraft like the Cirrus (and new concepts like BRS) and diesel Diamonds
- new avionics, initially the GNSx30s and then the G1000
- new methods of navigation, everything from handhelds to GPS Approaches to PRNAV
- new regulatory issues like EASA
In the last couple of years, the pace of change has slowed a bit. Many of these topics are now mature. EASA has sort of settled, although I am sure there'll be another flurry of IMCr posting at some point. The recession has bitten into new aircraft development and a lot of projects have stalled/collapsed.
...perhaps there inherently fewer themes for "serious" threads at present?
The other inherent issue is that many "serious" topics are by definition specialised. GA often works well as a nice community, but when it comes to fora, it also fragments and tribalises very quickly. Rod1 thinks mainstream GA is over-represented compared to light sport flying. I think there is too much kneeboard/torch/hobby stuff and mainstream GA topics are a bit under-represented. To be honest, I am not terribly interested in the homebuilt perspective on every topic, and I am sure Rod1 isn't terriby interested in the certified perspective. It's the problem of an "all private GA forum". You gain a good volume of posters and readers, but most of the time you fail to please most of the people.
Also, an anonymous general forum is not ideal for a serious discussion. For example, if I were a Cirrus owner and I had a "serious" question, would I post it here? No. I'd get too much noise - the jibes that I must be a rich b*****d, the "Cirrus BRS and glass cockpit induce complacency" knee-jerk, the "certified aircraft are dinosaurs, fly a homebuilt"....etc etc etc. I see a lot of Cirrus aircraft around the UK and Europe, which is why I disagree with the "GA is declining" argument (the Cirruses are always flying too, so the airframe #s probably underrepresent the usage). But I imagine Cirrus owners join a Cirrus Pilots forum.
The problem is even worse on the main airline forum. I dip into it on occassion to read the pro pilot perspective on interesting issues or on an accident, but the pros are drowned out by hundreds of other posts and you give up wading through 50 page threads.
brgds
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I think there may be a number of themes at work. One has been identified as the one-off nature of internet forums being a "new" thing that many people got involved with, but over time, as with many new things, interest wanes and people drift away.
Another theme may coincide with the emergence of Internet pilot fora in the last decade. The 2000s were a period of change in GA, after a fairly stagnant period in the 90s. There were simply a lot of "serious" new topics to discuss
- new aircraft like the Cirrus (and new concepts like BRS) and diesel Diamonds
- new avionics, initially the GNSx30s and then the G1000
- new methods of navigation, everything from handhelds to GPS Approaches to PRNAV
- new regulatory issues like EASA
In the last couple of years, the pace of change has slowed a bit. Many of these topics are now mature. EASA has sort of settled, although I am sure there'll be another flurry of IMCr posting at some point. The recession has bitten into new aircraft development and a lot of projects have stalled/collapsed.
...perhaps there inherently fewer themes for "serious" threads at present?
The other inherent issue is that many "serious" topics are by definition specialised. GA often works well as a nice community, but when it comes to fora, it also fragments and tribalises very quickly. Rod1 thinks mainstream GA is over-represented compared to light sport flying. I think there is too much kneeboard/torch/hobby stuff and mainstream GA topics are a bit under-represented. To be honest, I am not terribly interested in the homebuilt perspective on every topic, and I am sure Rod1 isn't terriby interested in the certified perspective. It's the problem of an "all private GA forum". You gain a good volume of posters and readers, but most of the time you fail to please most of the people.
Also, an anonymous general forum is not ideal for a serious discussion. For example, if I were a Cirrus owner and I had a "serious" question, would I post it here? No. I'd get too much noise - the jibes that I must be a rich b*****d, the "Cirrus BRS and glass cockpit induce complacency" knee-jerk, the "certified aircraft are dinosaurs, fly a homebuilt"....etc etc etc. I see a lot of Cirrus aircraft around the UK and Europe, which is why I disagree with the "GA is declining" argument (the Cirruses are always flying too, so the airframe #s probably underrepresent the usage). But I imagine Cirrus owners join a Cirrus Pilots forum.
The problem is even worse on the main airline forum. I dip into it on occassion to read the pro pilot perspective on interesting issues or on an accident, but the pros are drowned out by hundreds of other posts and you give up wading through 50 page threads.
brgds
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By teaching people to fly from A to B I am referring to the endless posts on the forums, and endless cases I find personally, where a pilot is unable to plan a route from say Goodwood to Norwich. This is inexcusable, since it renders the PPL license virtually worthless. The evident inability of so many fresh PPLs to go anywhere guarantees they will chuck it in almost right away.
To go back to the original question: I personally find this and the other places gold mines for practical flying, particularly when flying to a new destination. Sometimes what's written in the AIP or a flight guide is out of date, or just inaccurate and getting comments on an internet forums can help shed light on local custom & practice.
To give an example: I flew to Dinard this summer. Before I went I had a little search around the forums and picked up that one must knock on the door of the customs office to get attention if there's no-one around. There are no signs at the airport (that I could see) and it doesn't mention it in the French AIP entry for Dinard. Practical real-world experience from the internet community, without which I would probably have strolled through the terminal without properly clearing customs.
But I'm frequently put off contributing (particular on pprune) because of the tendency to criticise other pilots. How many threads have there been on: other pilots not reading NOTAMs, other pilots pressing on when they shouldn't, other pilots flying too big a circuit, other pilots flying too tight a circuit (i.e. cutting in), etc etc? (And I note, it's generally "other pilots"; the internet is populated solely by pilots who "always" display excellent airmanship and begin their posts "I always". Apart from me: I always consider myself fallible...
)And to take the quote above. I'm sure you intended it as a well-meaning example to make your point. However, people like me will come to an internet forum to ask advice on routing A -> B, not because I can't plan a viable route; I can probably think of several. But I'm looking for local practical advice that might not be apparent from published information.
Phew, managed a post on pprune.
DR
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“Rod1 thinks mainstream GA is over-represented compared to light sport flying.”
No that is not what I said at all!!! I said the Micro owners were missing (4500 owner pilots in the uk and not in decline) were missing and the IR high end was over represented (allegedly 1% of the pilot pool). “Mainstream GA” ie the traditional US built aircraft owner is well represented, but becoming less mainstream.
Rod1
No that is not what I said at all!!! I said the Micro owners were missing (4500 owner pilots in the uk and not in decline) were missing and the IR high end was over represented (allegedly 1% of the pilot pool). “Mainstream GA” ie the traditional US built aircraft owner is well represented, but becoming less mainstream.
Rod1
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for me the thing that is putting me off flying is not the cost (i fly a single seater for about 15 quid per hour) it is the continual health and safety brigade, the jobsworths that make you wear a high vis jackets, people that sit in offices somewhere in Brussels that have never flown that think up new rules and practices just because it is their job to do so, not because of any safety reason or to make anything more efficient, and so it snowballs on...
A few weeks ago I was at my airfield where we flew during the week (unusal as we are a weekend gliding club) ATC were absolutely rediculous. During the weekend they are closed, we manage to cope sensibly all day long, liasing ourselves with other all other aircraft, all 100% safe.
During the week the ATC are open, in this week nothing could step on to the runway without their permission, one instructor walked on the 2 inches at the edge of the runway to keep his feet dry on a 5 meter walk to the launch point from where he parked the a/c and ATC radio'ed us to tell him off for walking on the runway, they were spying on him with bino's! During the whole week the only a/c movements were the gliding club, and the police helo that we manage to avoid every single weekend.
The best bit of RT we had from them was when they told a glider getting towed behind the tug to avoid a particular area for the next few minutes, the top reply from glider pilot was "incase you didnt notice i have to go where the tug takes me!"
Come 2.30pm ATC realised no a/c were coming to visit, so they cleared off home, as soon as they said that over the radio within 30 secs all ten of us ran on the runway and jumped up and down, 30mins before they told off someone for keeping his feet dry, it is mental.
I called up ATC that week to book out, got the 3rd degree of the ATCO, what i was doing, where i was going etc etc, he then said we are closing in 10 mins I could do what I want! Why give me all the grief in the first place!
It is this jobsworth attitude, obession with h&s, lack of common sense which really gets on my t
ts and makes me want to jack it all in. It seems all fun is taken away.
If one more person tells me to wear a high vis at 12 midday on a gin clear blue sky day I think I will stick my fist through his head, I have managed to live this long without getting squashed, think I can live another 2 mins walking from the cafe to the parked a/c 10 meters away.
In fact it is getting so bad I think that there must be people flying out of farm strips, with no insurance, no c of a, lapsed licences and no medicals because they are sick of it all and you can get away with it, how will you ever get caught?? To many rules and people dont want to obide by any of them.
A few weeks ago I was at my airfield where we flew during the week (unusal as we are a weekend gliding club) ATC were absolutely rediculous. During the weekend they are closed, we manage to cope sensibly all day long, liasing ourselves with other all other aircraft, all 100% safe.
During the week the ATC are open, in this week nothing could step on to the runway without their permission, one instructor walked on the 2 inches at the edge of the runway to keep his feet dry on a 5 meter walk to the launch point from where he parked the a/c and ATC radio'ed us to tell him off for walking on the runway, they were spying on him with bino's! During the whole week the only a/c movements were the gliding club, and the police helo that we manage to avoid every single weekend.
The best bit of RT we had from them was when they told a glider getting towed behind the tug to avoid a particular area for the next few minutes, the top reply from glider pilot was "incase you didnt notice i have to go where the tug takes me!"
Come 2.30pm ATC realised no a/c were coming to visit, so they cleared off home, as soon as they said that over the radio within 30 secs all ten of us ran on the runway and jumped up and down, 30mins before they told off someone for keeping his feet dry, it is mental.
I called up ATC that week to book out, got the 3rd degree of the ATCO, what i was doing, where i was going etc etc, he then said we are closing in 10 mins I could do what I want! Why give me all the grief in the first place!
It is this jobsworth attitude, obession with h&s, lack of common sense which really gets on my t
ts and makes me want to jack it all in. It seems all fun is taken away. If one more person tells me to wear a high vis at 12 midday on a gin clear blue sky day I think I will stick my fist through his head, I have managed to live this long without getting squashed, think I can live another 2 mins walking from the cafe to the parked a/c 10 meters away.
In fact it is getting so bad I think that there must be people flying out of farm strips, with no insurance, no c of a, lapsed licences and no medicals because they are sick of it all and you can get away with it, how will you ever get caught?? To many rules and people dont want to obide by any of them.
Moderator
out of farm strips, with no insurance, no c of a, lapsed licences and no medicals because they are sick of it all and you can get away with it, how will you ever get caught?? To many rules and people dont want to obide by any of them.
Yes, I made my own little entry point to the sky here at home, just go get away from all the airport rules - it worked!
Anyway, let me know if this pub meeting is planned, it would be great! I'm only an ocean away....
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Invitation to UAV689
Dear UAV, where do you fly?
I'm wondering if your ATC people are actually manning a tower and a controlled airfield, or are they an advisory service with inflated ideas?
If the first, they do have to dot the i's and cross the t's. To keep the licensed airfield. So if you must co-exist, perhaps a friendly visit to the tower for a cup of coffee to let them air their grievances, arrange to meet at a pub after hours. Offer to take a controller up in a glider.....
I'm wondering if your ATC people are actually manning a tower and a controlled airfield, or are they an advisory service with inflated ideas?
If the first, they do have to dot the i's and cross the t's. To keep the licensed airfield. So if you must co-exist, perhaps a friendly visit to the tower for a cup of coffee to let them air their grievances, arrange to meet at a pub after hours. Offer to take a controller up in a glider.....
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If one more person tells me to wear a high vis at 12 midday on a gin clear blue sky day I think I will stick my fist through his head, I have managed to live this long without getting squashed, think I can live another 2 mins walking from the cafe to the parked a/c 10 meters away.
Someone somewhere would have dreamt up regulating on yellow jackets.
Maybe they had shares in a yellow jacket manufacturing company?
Oh well I suppose it could have been worse? some burocrat may decide we can run faster in tights and regulate that all pilots wear tights in the vicinity of aircraft...... Of course all in the name of percieved safety.
Oh well I suppose these regulators have to think up something to regulate on just to fill the week ahead? Could always alternate yellow with orange. Orange in the summer months yellow in the winter and maybe a fetching pink for spring,That leafs fig leaves for autumn. At least we would know what season we are in
Pace nb dont think there has been one collision with a prop due to not wearing yellow jackets? but hey ho !!!!
Last edited by Pace; 9th Sep 2010 at 22:40.
The thing that gets me about people wearing high viz vests is that they seem to forget all about the "see" part of "see and be seen", their situational awareness goes straight out the window.
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Ahhh done the tower visit, some of the controllers are ok, others like the sound of their voices in their headsets...
There is something about aviation that people who fly are great, it's the 10% of the ones that's don't who cause the grief..
There is something about aviation that people who fly are great, it's the 10% of the ones that's don't who cause the grief..
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ATC, as a profession, seems to have a broader spectrum of "attitude" than many professions, and the spectrum is probably closer to similarly rule-bound professions such as security, ISO9000 quality management, etc.
However, my experience of ATC while flying (i.e. interacting with them in the very narrow way involved in that case), in N Europe, has always been excellent.
It is the A/G (which many UK PPLs cannot differentiate from ATC because nobody has explained the difference) crowd who regularly cause people a lot of grief. But a lot of that may be due to a lack of understanding on the part of the pilot of what the A/G person is doing. For example there is no point in calling up "Goodwood Radar" (no kidding) for an enroute service
However, my experience of ATC while flying (i.e. interacting with them in the very narrow way involved in that case), in N Europe, has always been excellent.
It is the A/G (which many UK PPLs cannot differentiate from ATC because nobody has explained the difference) crowd who regularly cause people a lot of grief. But a lot of that may be due to a lack of understanding on the part of the pilot of what the A/G person is doing. For example there is no point in calling up "Goodwood Radar" (no kidding) for an enroute service
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For me, it's pretty simple, really.
When you're new to flying, everything is fresh and interesting, and the majority of us become sponges and soak up everything we can - and that includes the fora experience. You learn to put up with the blowhards, the sky gods, the fantasists (whatever did happen to dear old DSC?), the arguments, the willy-waving, the plain stupid, and the "good ol'boys" who have evidently flown everything ever made since the Wright Bros strutted their stuff, because there are a lot of good guys who are willing, unfailingly and selfishly, to help you along with many of the confusing aspects of this game.
Over the next few years, many of us try to do our part in turn to help out. And then ....
A few more years down the line, with some/a lot of (delete as required) experience under the belt, it becomes much harder to find the motivation to continuously monitor and engage in discussions, many of which - let's be honest - we have often seen before. And as a result, the habit of logging on to see what's going on starts to slip away, to the point where - in my own (and shameless) case - these days I only log on if I need to ask or research something, or if I'm sat idly bored in front of t'Interweb.
As that irritating puppet is fond of saying, "Seeemples !"
When you're new to flying, everything is fresh and interesting, and the majority of us become sponges and soak up everything we can - and that includes the fora experience. You learn to put up with the blowhards, the sky gods, the fantasists (whatever did happen to dear old DSC?), the arguments, the willy-waving, the plain stupid, and the "good ol'boys" who have evidently flown everything ever made since the Wright Bros strutted their stuff, because there are a lot of good guys who are willing, unfailingly and selfishly, to help you along with many of the confusing aspects of this game.
Over the next few years, many of us try to do our part in turn to help out. And then ....
A few more years down the line, with some/a lot of (delete as required) experience under the belt, it becomes much harder to find the motivation to continuously monitor and engage in discussions, many of which - let's be honest - we have often seen before. And as a result, the habit of logging on to see what's going on starts to slip away, to the point where - in my own (and shameless) case - these days I only log on if I need to ask or research something, or if I'm sat idly bored in front of t'Interweb.
As that irritating puppet is fond of saying, "Seeemples !"
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Fujibound,
Maybe its the time of the year, end of summer feeling
Anyway, the only remedy is to find a nice (aviation) project and execute it to stay motivated...
I know all about projects...
and I just love it.....
PS I didn't log in for about two months as I was busy with my project..
now I am depressed after reading a couple of posts
Back to my project now
Maybe its the time of the year, end of summer feeling
Anyway, the only remedy is to find a nice (aviation) project and execute it to stay motivated...
I know all about projects...
and I just love it.....PS I didn't log in for about two months as I was busy with my project..
now I am depressed after reading a couple of postsBack to my project now