thing

Got to agree with Guppy on what he says about young people not being as air minded as we were. It was a big deal even getting near an aircraft when I was a kid never mind flying in one. I think cheap air travel (not that I'm against it) has eroded some of the magic that goes with flying. People think no more of climbing aboard an aeroplane than they do the local bus downtown.
I was brought up on tales of derring do by the air forces of WWI and II, all of those names from the B of B, Bader, Tuck, Kent and many more, I could probably still describe the combats they were in. I work with young kids and especially with this being the 70th anniversary of the B of B I've been asking them what they know about aviation history. Zilch basically. I suppose we're getting old. It's not that we were taught about it and they weren't, it's just that every kid at my school was mad about planes and could recite the cruising speeds of our V bombers and SAC aircraft like they were reciting the Lord's Prayer.
I didn't fly until I was 20 years old, an hour's local in a Condor from Cranwell Flying Club. I can remember every second of it even though it was 34 years ago. Flying lessons were 7 quid an hour at Cranwell then and I couldn't afford it.....
Glory days indeed.

It always struck me as well that there were very few young pilots at my gliding club, by young I mean under 30. Gliding is cheaper than playing golf (I know being a sufferer of both) and there are plenty of young folk on the golf course.

In fact I've just opened my 1960 Observer's book of aircraft at a random page and got the Grumman F11F-1 Tiger. It looks superb. They don't even make military aircraft that look good anymore do they. Even the smell of the pages in the book makes me all nostalgic. Time to shut up I think.

IO540

That's been a long term trend for many years now.

Life has a lot more distractions today.

There are kids who are really into flying though. I have a 14 year old son who is like that. Planes are his whole life. And I have a 17 year old son who goes around with an Ipod in his ears and everything has to be 'cool'.

douglas.lindsay

Wow! I'm one who grew up at the wrong time for learning all those old stories, and just did a bit of searching for the likes of Douglas Bader. I've clearly missed out! Anybody got any good books they would recommend on, eg, WW1 / WW2 aviation?

FWIW, I'm one of those who doesn't do a whole lot of socialising alongside my flying - simply because, in my case, my young family barely leaves enough time to get airborne, never mind anything else. But that will change in due course. Maybe there are a few folks like me who have started, but are only going to find their way onto the social scene in another 5-10 years?

As regards forums quietening down, I'd think that was bound to happen - and it's not limited to aviation. I suspect that the level of posting over the last 10-15 years was higher mostly because the whole forum scene was relatively new, at least for the wider public who weren't geeky enough for the likes of Usenet. Not such a significant indication of interest in aviation as the number of planes parked (or missing) from the apron - which at least for my club seems to be pretty high.

douglas.lindsay

Heh, just noticed I have as many posts as years in my age now!

Rats, I've spoiled it now, haven't I? I'll have to wait a year before I say anything else...

mary meagher

Hello, thing! Your gliding club is in Lincoln? Chris Rollings always said there are no thermals East of the M1.....

I am so sorry that old timers on these forums think that interest has declined.
It seems a wonderful way of yakking to fellow pilots across the miles, and asking questions of ATC, and putting in my two cents without being flamed (not often, anyway) even in the professional forums.....and when I joined I knew so little about the internet I was too ignorant to sign up with a mystery name, so you all know where to find me, and I have to be careful what I say...

Surely the economic downturn makes one question priorities. No doubt about that.

BUT can I ask for your help please? I am making a list, with the approval of the BGA, of power planes that have tow hooks that are not necessarily owned by gliding clubs.....perhaps somebody reading this has one and would like to add his pride and joy to the list? Because that is the only way I can continue to own an airplane, pulling up gliders. Very challenging and a lot of fun. PM if you prefer.

SNS3Guppy

Reach for the Sky by Paul Brickhill. It's the story of Douglas Bader. It's the kind of story that makes one think twice about saying "I can't."

"The Proficient Pilot" series by Barry Schiff are some excellent collections of articles about flying in general, very pertinent to the private arena.

douglas.lindsay

Our history department wasn't very exciting... yawn man, it still makes me sleepy just thinking about it. If only they had told us about the Battle of Britain...

Thanks for the book suggestions, I'm orff to Amazon right now!

Pace

Guppy

Douglas Bader?

Loved this quote from the great man

"Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men."

And I love this one (not by Douglas Bader)
"Unless you push the limits you will never find what lies beyond".

Pace

JEM60

I ate, slept and breathed aeroplanes from the first time I saw one close to. I lived on the Welsh border, with only sheep for company. I longed to learn to fly. I looked up every time I heard one. Then I moved near to RAF Halton. The first thing I saw when getting off the bus was a T.21 Sedbergh glider. I had never seen a glider!!. Off to join the ATC, 3 years later, I was flying that same glider!! XN150 I believe. Loads of flying in various aircraft. Eventually had my own business, learnt to fly having previously been a sky diver. Gave up after 200 hours. It was taking me away from my young family for too long. End of my piloting.
My enthusiasm, for aircraft, however, never once wavered, not even to this day. I travelled the world to Airshows, Museums etc. Duxford is almost my second home. My wife said if you can't beat aeroplane people, you might as well join them, and she now works at Duxford on Show days. For me, once an aeroplane person, always an aeroplane person. It has so far been a great journey. I've loved it and aeroplane peoples' company so much, not to mention other passions like sunshine, motor racing, pretty women......................

batninth

My two penn'orth on the changing nature of these forums....

10, possibly 15 years ago, our access to information was mainly face to face, or via reading books & magazines. If you wanted to know something you asked people or went to get-togethers where people presented & talked. I have some "old" (early 90s) editions of the PFA magazine and the amount & nature of the information in them is vastly better than the "sound bite" stuff we get now (Sorry BH if you're reading, Light Aviation is still a good read, but the old stuff is just directed at a more understanding audience).

I can equate this state of affairs to my area of business, computing, where we used to meet up every quarter & be presented with the latest & greatest technology news by experts just back from the US.

Then in the late 90s we had the explosion of the internet, and people published data there. We no longer needed to wait for the meeting every quarter as what we wanted was posted up on web sites. In fact we saw the information at the same time as the "experts", and the expert became the guys who could read the fastest.

Move forward into 2003 onwards and we get the rise of using social networking, like forums. Everyone can contribute and they do, you end up with an active place like PPRUNE where the knowledge & experience can be shared. Now, not only can I get information from ROTAX web site about the 582, but I can ask other people who share their experience.

But of course all that experience gets stored away, and now we have these super search engines. If I want to see the collected wisdom on the Rotax 582 I can ask Google or Bing and then collect the postings from the previous 10 years.

We don't need to interact now because we can find most of it already. All we have left now is "News", and that comes at us raw as it happens.

I guess its inevitable that places like these forums slow down, not necessarily because a lot of older pilots are walking away from flying in general but because their voice isn't being heard now...which is a great pity. We all think we're experts now, yet the real experience & expertise is actually in danger of being lost.

SNS3Guppy

True enough. Bader was one whom I always felt that though I could spend several lifetimes attempting to follow the footsteps, I could never be worthy of walking in them.

Yeager's story is interesting and impressive, but I could never get past the arrogance.

I love reading Richard Bach.

cjm_2010

IMO experience counts for everything. at 32 & 16 hrs I've got unlimited respect for those that have been flying longer than I could ever possibly hope to fly myself.

in surfing there's a saying - old dudes rule

Molesworth 1

or are they trolls posing as pilots?

Not so newly qualified with not that much experience but enough to know that pilots with lots of experience also talk rubbish sometimes

Fuji Abound

I started flying for the joy of flight. I had no idea why I wanted to fly, but knew I had wanted to fly from the days I was a kid. I was lucky. My parents flew me backwards and forwards across the Atlantic in the days it took 24 flying hours and half a dozen stops. I still recall the chief steward passing down the isle with a joint of roast beef on his trolley asking his passengers whether they preferred their beef rare or well done. My parents chide me to this day that when I saw the flaps extend I cried out the wings were falling off to their embarrassment and to the consternation of every other passenger. I was truly lucky. I was a spoilt kid that treasured his BOAC log book and gold wings!
*
I met a gentlemen a few years back at an airport in France who was still in charge of one of the few remaining airworthy Doves. He told the story of his early days flying the Atlantic. When a pilot reported he had lost an engine often it was meant in a literal sense. Fires were not uncommon. The bolts were sacrificially designed to melt and the engine fall to the sea below. The spare engines at Croydon (was it really Croydon) were hanging from the gantry by chains and really could be fitted in hours. Was it apocryphal, did he embellish his stories with a hint of poetic license, or a large dollop – I don’t know, but I guess every pilot was a pioneer.
*
Flying for me has turned out a little like my childhood passage. I still recall the thrill of my first solo, as I am sure we all do. I think the only flying experience to ever exceed my first solo was the first time I did a loop, but there have been many other highlights along the way.
*
One highlight, strangely perhaps, was finding PPRuNe, a forum from which I have learnt so much. In my early days on PPRuNe everyone seemed like an expert, the banter more forthright than it is today, the personalities larger than life and the “put downs” often merciless.
*
Times change. I still love flying, but a flight around the local cabbage patch for flying sake does not hold the same sense of achievement – sadly perhaps, because I can’t help feeling we should think ourselves lucky every single time we take to the air. So the cabbages are rarely a feature these days; I fly for business whenever I can, I fly to go places that time would not otherwise permit, I fly to take the kids backwards and forwards to University and I fly so I don’t forget what it is like to turn myself up side down once in a while.
*
In the same way PPRuNe has changed. The personalities are different, even if many of the questions are the same. The banter is different and if anything the personalities more reserved.
*
My instructor friend tells me he still has a full dairy; he sees the same faces each year, the only difference being each year they each know another year has slipped by. Yet my eyes tell me things have changed. The parking spaces are no longer full with aircraft. The days when “you are number 8 to land” become much fewer, and are now seldom heard, the PFA rally at Cranfield with a 1,000 aircraft seems a distant memory. Airfields have gone, and will, I know, not be replaced. Many of those that remain have changed.
*
And then there is the economy. People are counting the pennies, flying for flying sake is a pleasure and a luxury and so inevitably other priorities will determine how the pennies are spent. Enough may remain for a permit aircraft, but for many, I suspect these times may challenge their financially ability to continue flying. They also challenge the way we use our time. Bosses expect more form their employees and there is less time to pontificate on PPRuNe.
*
[SIZE=]I am rambling, but I think there are any number of reasons why some of us feel PPRuNe has changed, has perhaps evolved. I feel I will contribute less, although that remains to be seen. I hope I have contributed usefully to PPRuNe over the years. I hope that the next “generation” of pilots will get as much fun out of reading some of the contributions on here as hopefully we all have. With regret I think as others private flying will become more difficult for many to justify not just because of the cost but for a host of other reasons that we have already discussed. That we will all be a little poorer in consequence I also regret. I hope people will continue to contribute to PPRuNe with as much enthusiasm as they can muster. I hope we don’t end up with more people watching in the wings than putting finger to key because then not only will the contributors dwindle but so will the watchers. I hope PPRuNe is still going in ten years time. Most of all I hope GA continues to flourish even if it must also evolve to meet the challenges we all face. I think in its way PPRuNe is a reflection of what is happening to general aviation but PPRuNe's decline is more pronounced.[/SIZE]
*
Guppy - Illusions, now there is a book, I still romantise the description of that biplane approaching so slowly that it seemed to defy gravity.

eharding

I suspect that had you met him, and told him of your proposition to follow his footsteps, he'd have done some particularly tricky tin-leg footwork to ensure you broke an ankle in the process of trying to follow.

He did have a bit of a reputation of being a tad on the grumpy side in the postwar years - but I rather hope the sporadic reports of traces of pipe-smoke being detected in the White Waltham clubhouse by the early crew are indeed caused by the shade of the old warrior sparking up in the small hours.

Regarding the thread topic, it would be interesting to have IO540 point to what he regards as vintage quality threads here and elsewhere, compared to the fare he is seeing on the forums today. If he could talk Pprune or Flyer into publishing figures on forum activity, even better - obviously, we could skew those overnight by starting topics on the subject of "Overhead Join - what sort of cackwit can't grasp the concept?", "GPS - navigation crutch or clubhouse crotch padding?" and the evergreen favourite "Inverted in the club Arrow at 600 feet - do I deserve quite such a rollicking?"

eharding

Blimey, old son. That font size made my monitor emit an audible 'twang' when your post appeared. I know that as we get older, smaller text is hard to read at short distance, but they could read that post from across the road.

Pitts2112

An interesting thread and observation. My reasons for not having posted much at all in a long time are several, I think. I had a roasting from one or two on another forum a few years back which left me thinking they weren't interested in a mature debate but rather a character assassination. I was probably very thin-skinned, but since I posted on fora for fun, and that didn't qualify as such, I just lost interest in posting very much. Since then, the economy has stopped my flying completely so I've lost touch with what's going on in the field. I'm guessing that's a very large driver in the overall decline in activity.

And, finally, I guess I haven't felt like I've had too much to say on too many topics. And, I have to admit, I've moved my daily reading to JB which seems much more entertaining. I don't post there, either, but I do read it every day.

Pace

It is only PPRUNE who will have the stats on how busy the forums are today compared with previous years?

Yes the same topics rear their heads! Some generate a lot of passion. I have a sneaking suspicion that some of us post on purpose to generate
controversy and hence discussion, I know I do
Then leave it to the really knowledgable people here to fill the cracks.

Some post a lot and with such frequency day and night that it makes you wonder on their backgrounds. Real commercial pilots filling time in hotels, Single Pilots filling time. Pilots with a lot of downtime. Pilots logging in at their place of work???

I can remember being heavely involved in MS flight sim forums years back and marvelling at one Pilot? whos knowledge was immense and who spoke with such authority. He turned out to be a 12 year old with an expertise in googling and pasting.

We never really know who is at the other end.

I have met a handful for real one who has become a good friend and drinking/girl ogling partner in London and who has flown as a co pilot with me in corporate jets.
Maybe we should meet each other more and put a face to the elaborate names used.

Maybe PPRUNE should expand not just as a forum but as a representative to fight the causes we hold so dear.

PPRUNE is already used by the media to get insights into aviation events from the ones who know THE PILOTS.
Its a shame those views cannot be fought through the correct channels as expressed in pprune through pprune rather than dying in the threads.

Pace

Whirlygig

Well I don't post here very often because there is a good half dozen posters here who already know everything so my input is rarely wanted or required.

Reminds me of the expression ... "If I said I had a giraffe, they would have a box to put it in".

Cheers

Whirls

Pilot DAR

Probably like many, I stumbled upon PPRuNe while searching for something else not at all related to private flying. I found the private flying forum among the rest, and thought "wow, there's probably lots to learn here!".

Then.... I started feeling old as a pilot. I saw many subjects going by which I had considered, experienced, and survived already in my flying. Sure, there are a few new things which are quite interesting, particularly regulatory changes, and new technology, but often I found myself more with an answer, than a question.

During my growth as a pilot, countless people have very generously helped me in all kinds of ways. So many people have taken me along, and shown me something new, or otherwise given of themselves so that I might be a better, or at least surviving pilot. I owe it back...

Where are the "keeners"?.... those kids who will hang around the airport, and do anything to get into the air. I was one, and did very well by it. I have had my plane here at home for twenty years, and I have only had one kid have the initiative to come and ask to go flying. I figure that there must be keeners around PPRuNe so I'll try to offer my debt of experience back here.

This is the first and only forum in which I participate. Though I like to think that my efforts to share the experience, and encourage aviation are appreciated, Like everyone else here with a valid opinion, I have endured participants who post beyond their station in aviation. You read a number of posts from a person, which seem to have some elusive value, and then months later that person posts that they just took their first lesson!

Aside from the flying which forms a part of my work, my flying is generally very solitary - no clubs involved... Plane is at home, I use it like (often in place of) the family car. I am not commonly in an environment where I can share aviation with those coming into our industry. I suppose I should try harder!

We who have survived flying, have a duty to cheerfully encourage "keeners" and "newbees" without being demeaning or elitist to them. We have a further duty to share wisdom, which we have received or learned the hard way, to help them stay alive. Accidents cost everyone money, and cast a poor light on our industry. We don't need that, so we must do our part to promote safe aviation.

So, I'll hang in there for a while, if for no other reason, than to pay back the debt I owe, of experience. Every now and again, someone gets me wound up here. I just go away for a few days, and enjoy all of the tangible things in my life. But it will take a stronger force than the trolls, abrupt wannabe's and people who refer to my plane as a "spam can" here to drive me away....

I have sought out, and had the pleasure of meeting in person, several PPRuNer's. In each case, it was a totally delightful experience, and completley worth the effort! It is excellent experiences like those which make the occasional PPRuNe battle seem meaningless by comparision...

So for the new people here, and in our industry, welcome, and feel free to ask your questions, we really are here to be helpful. Just don't be suprized if we have an answer that you were not expecting, or do not like. Aviation can be rather unforgiving! (but I, for one, will try not to be rude!). For the oldtimers here.... well, I'm one of you - live with it!