nutters in the circuit!
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nutters in the circuit!
under tuition last friday I had an interesting moment with an icarus. I heard the pilot of the icarus declaring his location and intention to join at base, just as I was turning downwind.
both myself and the instructor spent a few seconds looking out for him but we couldn't see a thing. within a few seconds I spotted the aircraft - before my instructor - at circuit height on what looked like a head-on collision course.
we both banked right. I'm not sure how close we got but it felt pretty close to me. I would guesstimate at < 500 metres before I 'chickened' (first!).
apart from that - great lesson
both myself and the instructor spent a few seconds looking out for him but we couldn't see a thing. within a few seconds I spotted the aircraft - before my instructor - at circuit height on what looked like a head-on collision course.
we both banked right. I'm not sure how close we got but it felt pretty close to me. I would guesstimate at < 500 metres before I 'chickened' (first!).
apart from that - great lesson
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A valuble lesson too - expect the unexpected and keep your head on a swivel...give you an example a few years back BRL and I were in an Arrow on very short final at Popham (en-route to a proone fly in as it happens) and this fella in a 152 cuts in across our bows
- bit of a hasty GA let me tell you! 
Later investigation revealed that apparently this bloke was locally based and had a bit of a reputation as a queue jumper...
- bit of a hasty GA let me tell you! Later investigation revealed that apparently this bloke was locally based and had a bit of a reputation as a queue jumper...
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I see no indication so far he was a queue jumper .. ..
When the Icarus announced his intention did you say where you were? If he was turning base and you were just turning down wind you should have had plenty of time to sort yourselves out.
If he was positioned to join base and you were positioned downwind you shouldnt have met head on or met after a few seconds, so someone would seem to not have been where they said.
When the Icarus announced his intention did you say where you were? If he was turning base and you were just turning down wind you should have had plenty of time to sort yourselves out.
If he was positioned to join base and you were positioned downwind you shouldnt have met head on or met after a few seconds, so someone would seem to not have been where they said.
The CAA take queue jumpers very seriously and deal accordingly with them.....
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This behaviour is quite normal... you need to get your PPL and fly as far away from the local circuit as possible 
500m is a loooong way - do you mean 50m?
500m is a loooong way - do you mean 50m?
I don't think it was a case of queue jumping - he was simply going the wrong way around the circuit!
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Once met an orange OATS Cherokee doing the same thing at Booker!! Wrong way round the circuit!!. Mind you, we have all made mistakes in the air, I suspect, like a now currently Fellow of the Aeronautical Society I was flying with almost overflying Upper Heyford many years ago. He thought it was Bicester, until I pointed out that Bicester does not have F.111s on the ground, and that aircraft on the left is a Phantom on finals!!!!!!!
Plenty of evidence going to the LAA flyin at sywell the other day of others who clearly hadnt read any of the blurb. I joined as per the leaflet, following a cherokee on L base 03 and thought he was helluva wide and next thing he hangs a right and buggers off!
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I don't think it was a case of queue jumping - he was simply going the wrong way around the circuit!
I am assuming there was no AT? If you hear another aircraft joining in my view it is well worth saying explicitly where you are and what you are doing in the circuit because it at least means there should be two pairs of eyes looking for each of you rather than just you looking for him.
Viz: G-XXXX is also in the circuit, currently crosswind, about to turn downwind (tight or wide as you like), not visual with you this time.
Subject to viz etc I am always a bit cautious of steaming on without seeing traffic that I think (based on their position report) I should be able to see. Call me an old women but if I cant see them I might ask them for a position update and even consider adjusting my height in the circuit by a couple of hundred feet. People seem to think circuit heights are sacrosanct but I would rather adjust a little than increase the risk of meeting another aircraft going the wrong way.
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Viz: G-XXXX is also in the circuit, currently crosswind, about to turn downwind (tight or wide as you like), not visual with you this time.
While it doesn't stop someone making a mistake and mixing up left / right circuits, it should help to ensure that everyone is doing the same thing.
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Yes, of course, a very good point.
My calls usually go something like this if it is not too busy:
Departing
G-XXXX at the hold Little Snoring intending to line up runway x
- waits enough time to see if anyone is interested,
G-XXXX is lining up runway x Little Snoring,
G-XXXX is rolling runway x, intending right turn out or whatever.
Arriving
G-XXXX is joining crosswind (whatever) at 1,000 feet on the QNH 1016 for runway x at Little Snoring,
G-XXXX is turning downwind at Little Snoring for runway 32,
G-XXXX is turning final at Little Snoring for runway 32,
you can add in helpful comments like joining crosswind, see one ahead mid downwind etc.
It may not be CAPology, but it seems to me if we all thought a little more about enabling anyone else to build a picture of any traffic it would all run that much more smoothly. It is the one time, unless the radio is very busy, to talk more, not less.
It might not prevent someone causing chaos going the wrong way around the circuit but at least it gives them a chance for the penny to drop that they are about to make a prat of themselves
, (we have all done it I suspect) and to worry when you tell them you cant see them.
My calls usually go something like this if it is not too busy:
Departing
G-XXXX at the hold Little Snoring intending to line up runway x
- waits enough time to see if anyone is interested,
G-XXXX is lining up runway x Little Snoring,
G-XXXX is rolling runway x, intending right turn out or whatever.
Arriving
G-XXXX is joining crosswind (whatever) at 1,000 feet on the QNH 1016 for runway x at Little Snoring,
G-XXXX is turning downwind at Little Snoring for runway 32,
G-XXXX is turning final at Little Snoring for runway 32,
you can add in helpful comments like joining crosswind, see one ahead mid downwind etc.
It may not be CAPology, but it seems to me if we all thought a little more about enabling anyone else to build a picture of any traffic it would all run that much more smoothly. It is the one time, unless the radio is very busy, to talk more, not less.
It might not prevent someone causing chaos going the wrong way around the circuit but at least it gives them a chance for the penny to drop that they are about to make a prat of themselves
, (we have all done it I suspect) and to worry when you tell them you cant see them.
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I think radio calls in an uncontrolled circuit should always include the runway being used and the circuit direction being used.
Not good practice of course to use the opposite circuit but there are situations where it's the most sensible thing to do. (Empty circuit, big shower on the live side and permission from ATC was one.)
G-XXXX is rolling runway x, intending right turn out or whatever.
But the result of this is that pilots are actually afraid of calling their take-off a "take-off" at an uncontrolled airfield, where there is no ATC to issue a take-off clearance.
I haven't checked CAP413 but why can't we simply call "G-XXXX is taking off runway x?" at an uncontrolled (A/G or AFIS) field? That's what we're doing after all.
The only time I'm using a call "G-XXXX rolling" is in the following situation:
"G-XXXX you are cleared take-off runway x, mind wake turbulence from the preceding 747"
"Cleared take-off runway x, two minutes for the wake, G-XXXX"
"G-XXXX roger"
(two minutes later)
"G-XXXX rolling"
Fuji, you left out the circuit direction. Naughty.
BP. At my own strip we much prefer 'lining up' and 'rolling'. Take and off or variables of same should only come from the tower. No confusion then.
Aircraft tend to take off when they've finished rolling.
BP. At my own strip we much prefer 'lining up' and 'rolling'. Take and off or variables of same should only come from the tower. No confusion then.
Aircraft tend to take off when they've finished rolling.
Last edited by Flyingmac; 7th Sep 2010 at 11:46.
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I am assuming there was no AT? If you hear another aircraft joining in my view it is well worth saying explicitly where you are and what you are doing in the circuit because it at least means there should be two pairs of eyes looking for each of you rather than just you looking for him.
Fuji's circuit is clearly a left-hand circuit.
"Make all turns to the left unless ground signals otherwise indicate" (Rule 12)
That could result in some bent metal at my home base
"Make all turns to the left unless ground signals otherwise indicate" (Rule 12)
That could result in some bent metal at my home base
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Use the radio as an "aural radar"
Now i'm flying bigger things and going to Spain regulary, you would be suprised as to how often we talk to each other on the guard frequency to sort out the poor to non existent controlling.
Now i'm flying bigger things and going to Spain regulary, you would be suprised as to how often we talk to each other on the guard frequency to sort out the poor to non existent controlling.
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Yep, another good point, it could be an idea to include the circuit direction as well.
Good to have the debate, as I dont think most people are taught this stuff in their PPL (not least because they dont visit these places) so hopefully it improves the awareness of us all.
Good to have the debate, as I dont think most people are taught this stuff in their PPL (not least because they dont visit these places) so hopefully it improves the awareness of us all.
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'Turning Downwind'
'Turning downwind' does not establish a position. A 'Downwind' call when abeam the upwind end of the active runway tells everyone else where you are and gives a clue as to the timing of the rest of the circuit (ok, unless you are on a B52 circuit).