nutters in the circuit!
we have a radio service who is able to advise (callsign 'radio').
Also, at most small airfields, it is likely that the person operating the radio will at the same time be taking landing fees, making the sandwiches in the cafe, answering the telephone, and generally handling any number of other daily flying school/airfield tasks, which means they will often only have a sketchy idea, at best, of what is going on in the circuit.
Regards, jez
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'Turning downwind' does not establish a position. A 'Downwind' call when abeam the upwind end of the active runway tells everyone else where you are and gives a clue as to the timing of the rest of the circuit (ok, unless you are on a B52 circuit).
I would hope pilots would fly the crosswind leg accurately over the numbers so turning down wind should provide an acurate enough estimate.
I have always liked the terms early downwind and late downwind with everything in between simply being downwind (early downwind being up to the upwind threshold and late downwind being beyond the arrival threshold).
What do others think / do?
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People are not always turning from crosswind. I think you make a good point if joining long downwind, but consistency is the main thing and it would be better if everyone was reminded of 'normal' procedures whatever they are. I was taught to call downwind at that specific point because it is easily identifiable. If two people call in short succession you'd better have a fast look around. However, I've heard people call downwind when they are a mile away. I've also had someone fly straight across me when I was halfway downwind, but I digress....
I flew into Sywell on saturday in the rush hour. Several hundred aircraft managed to sort themselves out and land with very tight spacing, the only call being 'Type, G-XXXX final 03 grass/hard. (Apart from the inevitable few with verbal diarrhea). It struck me that it could have been done with no calls at all. Departures excepted.
Runway in use and circuit direction calling is also useful to avoid getting befuddled by ghost transmissions. Taking Sywell as an example, it shares its frequency with Compton Abbas.
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I flew into Sywell on saturday in the rush hour. Several hundred aircraft managed to sort themselves out and land with very tight spacing, the only call being 'Type, G-XXXX final 03 grass/hard. (Apart from the inevitable few with verbal diarrhea). It struck me that it could have been done with no calls at all. Departures excepted.
I dont think this necessarily proves that things work well without calls because 1) most people are on their guard at big events, 2) lots of other traffic makes it more difficult for them to join the wrong way on go round the ciruit in a different direction (but not impossible), 3) these events may attract those with more experience.
The danger is more likely to occur with much less traffic when someone pitches up unexpectedly and perhaps is new to the field. For those pilots the calls help, and cant do any harm.
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The pattern should be kept as small as possible so everyone can see you. I flew to Stapleford once. They had some guys flying Cessna 152s downwind and base legs so far out i swear they left the ATZ!*
I wouldn't be surprised if you flew it so big that you got cut up.
I wouldn't be surprised if you flew it so big that you got cut up.
I have always liked the terms early downwind and late downwind with everything in between simply being downwind (early downwind being up to the upwind threshold and late downwind being beyond the arrival threshold).
What do others think / do?
What do others think / do?
Both persons also insisted there exists no such thing as "left-hand downwind" in ICAO phraseology - one is either on right-hand downwind or simply on downwind - which is left-hand by definition.
Last edited by Jan Olieslagers; 7th Sep 2010 at 18:41. Reason: typo
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It should be incumbent on the joining pilot to visually identify all circuit traffic before joining the circuit.
Just to be pedantic, the R/T Licence gives authority to operate the radio from an aircraft, nowhere else. Don't do it if the CAA are about.
Also, at most small airfields, it is likely that the person operating the radio will at the same time be taking landing fees, making the sandwiches in the cafe, answering the telephone, and generally handling any number of other daily flying school/airfield tasks, which means they will often only have a sketchy idea, at best, of what is going on in the circuit.
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They had some guys flying Cessna 152s downwind and base legs so far out i swear they left the ATZ!*
The official circuit for 04 has the downwind extended until it leaves the ATZ, for noise abatement reasons.
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The pattern should be kept as small as possible so everyone can see you. I flew to Stapleford once. They had some guys flying Cessna 152s downwind and base legs so far out i swear they left the ATZ!*
IMHO, people should fly the published circuit, and if you are sure you are #1 then you can fly a tight base/final continuous descent. I like to do tight approaches but one cannot do them if it cuts somebody up.
And most people who think they can cut somebody up successfully have misjudged it, and merely force the other one to go around. With the exception of some aerobatic types (flown by skilled pilots, I assume) every time I have been cut up, I had to go around.
There is a clear rule that you don't cut up the one in front of you - whether you like his B52 circuit or not.
Cue another long thread on how to fly circuits
"rolling" is definitely not CAP413, and seems to stem from fear of using the phrase "taking off", which is the correct phrase.
See CAP413 §5.4.3 (Edition 19) (typical A/G RT)
See CAP413 §5.4.3 (Edition 19) (typical A/G RT)
Pilot: G-CD ready for departure
A/G: G-CD Roger, no reported traffic. Surface wind...
Pilot: Roger. Taking off, G-CD
A/G: G-CD Roger, no reported traffic. Surface wind...
Pilot: Roger. Taking off, G-CD
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Freda
Havent heard "taking off" have heard "rolling 22" maybe " I say chaps taking orf" infact taking off other than at rotation is a nonsense. " Rolling" is more accurate as if you have a problem you are unlikely to get to "taking orf"
stage which wont happen till way down the runway!
Pace
Havent heard "taking off" have heard "rolling 22" maybe " I say chaps taking orf" infact taking off other than at rotation is a nonsense. " Rolling" is more accurate as if you have a problem you are unlikely to get to "taking orf"
stage which wont happen till way down the runway!Pace
Pace, it's not a matter of accuracy of whether one is taking off or not at the point of making the transmission, it's a matter of conformance to CAP413.
Long time since I did my PPL, but at that time they didn't encourage the application of philosophy or logic to RT. You followed CAP413. End of story. There was a thread recently on here or Flyer where an ATCO was getting very shirty about DIY RT, and quoted this in particular.
As it happens, I've always said "rolling", but I don't think I should!
Long time since I did my PPL, but at that time they didn't encourage the application of philosophy or logic to RT. You followed CAP413. End of story. There was a thread recently on here or Flyer where an ATCO was getting very shirty about DIY RT, and quoted this in particular.
As it happens, I've always said "rolling", but I don't think I should!
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There are so many places where non-standard circuits are used, that it feels like it's become more the norm rather than the exception. This is obviously a safety hazard in some cases.
I remember the almost head on collision I had on the runway at a Swedish airport many years ago. I was in the circuit flying a big Lancer and was trying to cope with gears, MP and constant speed props (aircraft was new to me). A Cessna announces it want to join the circuit when I'm on downwind. I say where I am at what my intentions are (landning). No answer. On base I call out again and now specifically ask the Cessna where he is. No answer. Turn final and since the aircraft is all new to me and I'm a bit behind it, I'm going a bit too fast and too low and everything happens a bit late. The airport also has one of those deceptive ridges besides the rwy, so couldn't really see much until you're pretty much on short final. Just as I'm trying to slow this beast down and get her down I see the Cessna coming right at me on the runway! I pull up and veer sharp left (I know, opposite of what I should have done) and he goes to my right in a touch and go. I scream at him on the radio, but no answer. I don't think he ever saw me or if he did, he hid in shame. His radio could have been faulty, but that's no excuse for landing downwind.
Lesson learned for me? Never assume an aircraft not answering or announcing correctly is doing the right thing. Try to avoid straight ins, even if there's no traffic as it gives you time to visually check the airport, windsocks, movements etc.
I remember the almost head on collision I had on the runway at a Swedish airport many years ago. I was in the circuit flying a big Lancer and was trying to cope with gears, MP and constant speed props (aircraft was new to me). A Cessna announces it want to join the circuit when I'm on downwind. I say where I am at what my intentions are (landning). No answer. On base I call out again and now specifically ask the Cessna where he is. No answer. Turn final and since the aircraft is all new to me and I'm a bit behind it, I'm going a bit too fast and too low and everything happens a bit late. The airport also has one of those deceptive ridges besides the rwy, so couldn't really see much until you're pretty much on short final. Just as I'm trying to slow this beast down and get her down I see the Cessna coming right at me on the runway! I pull up and veer sharp left (I know, opposite of what I should have done) and he goes to my right in a touch and go. I scream at him on the radio, but no answer. I don't think he ever saw me or if he did, he hid in shame. His radio could have been faulty, but that's no excuse for landing downwind.
Lesson learned for me? Never assume an aircraft not answering or announcing correctly is doing the right thing. Try to avoid straight ins, even if there's no traffic as it gives you time to visually check the airport, windsocks, movements etc.
Last edited by AdamFrisch; 8th Sep 2010 at 07:40.
Avoid imitations
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The pattern should be kept as small as possible so everyone can see you. I flew to Stapleford once. They had some guys flying Cessna 152s downwind and base legs so far out i swear they left the ATZ!*
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rumour has it that some people have been speaking to Stapleford whilst landing at North Weald !
sometimes people make errors about their position. sometimes it is less error, and more an attempt at queue jumping....i.e. if I call final (but I am 8 miles out), then that bloke who has called downwind will have to extend but I wont have to wait for him.
sometimes the errors can get people killed. A couple of years back I was lined up ready for departure from EGSX on rw 20. A Cessna 172 that was on the frequency called "final to land 20". I commenced my roll. Shortly after take off, the Cessna pilot realised he had called "final to land 20" when he had actually been finals on 02. Brown pants time.
hopefully good airmanship, planning, and awareness will stop any of us from making dangerous errors.
but we are all human....
sometimes people make errors about their position. sometimes it is less error, and more an attempt at queue jumping....i.e. if I call final (but I am 8 miles out), then that bloke who has called downwind will have to extend but I wont have to wait for him.
sometimes the errors can get people killed. A couple of years back I was lined up ready for departure from EGSX on rw 20. A Cessna 172 that was on the frequency called "final to land 20". I commenced my roll. Shortly after take off, the Cessna pilot realised he had called "final to land 20" when he had actually been finals on 02. Brown pants time.
hopefully good airmanship, planning, and awareness will stop any of us from making dangerous errors.
but we are all human....
"Rolling" or "Roller" is a military phrase for a Touch and Go. Even the military have now changed to "Touch and Go".
It is deceidely worrying the number of non standard ways put forward in this thread of flying a circuit, to say nothing of the non standard home grown radio calls.
A circuit should be flown in the Standard manner with the published radio calls and GOOD LOOKOUT. If the circuit is non standard the differences will be published.
Many of us have seen aircraft going the wrong way in a circuit; that is a good reason for joining correctly, i.e. a standard overhead join where you can observe what is going on, and avoid the dangerous situation of joining directly and getting it wrong. If everyone flew a correct size circuit others would see them and know what they are doing.
Don't extend downwinnd, if you can't get in Go-Around and reposition downwind.
It is deceidely worrying the number of non standard ways put forward in this thread of flying a circuit, to say nothing of the non standard home grown radio calls.
A circuit should be flown in the Standard manner with the published radio calls and GOOD LOOKOUT. If the circuit is non standard the differences will be published.
Many of us have seen aircraft going the wrong way in a circuit; that is a good reason for joining correctly, i.e. a standard overhead join where you can observe what is going on, and avoid the dangerous situation of joining directly and getting it wrong. If everyone flew a correct size circuit others would see them and know what they are doing.
Don't extend downwinnd, if you can't get in Go-Around and reposition downwind.
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Long time since I did my PPL, but at that time they didn't encourage the application of philosophy or logic to RT. You followed CAP413. End of story. There was a thread recently on here or Flyer where an ATCO was getting very shirty about DIY RT, and quoted this in particular.
As it happens, I've always said "rolling", but I don't think I should!
As it happens, I've always said "rolling", but I don't think I should!
Ok
My response was lighthearted but I would point out that nothing is set in stone and even RT evolves.I can remember the universal " level at FL 100 direct XYZ" still hear pilots saying that. It changed to maintaining FL 100 direct XYZ.
Cannot say I have heard " Taking off ". ATC will give a TAKEOFF clearance which basically clears you for the whole procedure of taking off but usually its "rolling 27" which is accurate while the "takeoff" bit happens at VR.
Maybe its about time that was changed?
Pace