To the glider muppets who ruined the Reds display at Silverstone.

[Mooneyboy]

Just like to thank the glider pilots ( if any scanning this forum) who busted the zone over silverstone yesterday at the BTCC meeting. Good show of airmanship and planning ruining the show for thousands!!

Me and my girlfriend went to watch the racing and both looking forward to seeing the Reds display and literally after 3 mins of the display they had to abandon for a while because of gliders in the south of the zone. They cleared but after another couple of mins the gliders( apparently quite a few) were back and the display totally called off.


So to any glider pilots and powered pilot please check notams so as not to ruin a display for many and waste tax payers money, its not hard.


This could be in the wrong area so mods please move if needed.

[Rod1]

http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic....=65496&start=0

Rod1

[chris-h]

Or the tax payers money they may of saved if it got called off,
Bloomin Red arrows..

[Sir George Cayley]

Hi Money boy,

I can feel your frustration from here and as pointed out The Reds suffer from this big style. In this digital, info rich world one would have thought there was a better way of reaching all players in the vicinity.

Or is it that some don't want to hear?

Oh, and just for future it's "My girlfriend and I...." mustn't let standards drop

Sir George Cayley

[mary meagher]

Cross country glider pilots are trained to check the notams when planning a flight. There are several competitions taking place this week, Sunday being probably the only cross country day they will be able to get anywhere.

Any of the competitions would have warned their pilots about the Red Arrows.
And if they have busted the airspace they will certainly loose their points.

I have copied your concerns to the British Gliding Association.

I am sure that steps will be taken.

Mary Meagher

[Rod1]

mary meagher

If you follow the link above you will find out what actually happened, see that the right people have put their hands up and that the competition organisers were partly to blame…

Rod1

[Mooneyboy]

Thanks for the link Rod1. Its good to see it has been followed up and the right people have put their hands up.

Maybe the CAA should start releasing notams in a more user and friendly way. A lot of people are getting smart phones now, why couldn't the CAA release an official app for notams? A pictorial 3D method linked up to Google earth would also be a good method of improving situational awareness ( I think this has already been done but mainly for the US but I maybe wrong).

I can understand that picking up thermals and constant turning must make it tricky to accurately pin point your position in a glider (unless they all carry GPS I'm not sure) but Silverstone is pretty big and easy to spot. When I fly its our SOP to always maintaining a listening watch on 121.5, do gliders do this? Then again would this be an appropriate method of telling someone they infringed airspace?

And Sir George sorry for my grammar. Unfortunately my A level English is fast becoming a long distant memory eroded down by spell checker and texting.

[gpn01]

Originally Posted by Mooneyboy

Thanks for the link Rod1. Its good to see it has been followed up and the right people have put their hands up.

Maybe the CAA should start releasing notams in a more user and friendly way. A lot of people are getting smart phones now, why couldn't the CAA release an official app for notams? A pictorial 3D method linked up to Google earth would also be a good method of improving situational awareness ( I think this has already been done but mainly for the US but I maybe wrong).

I can understand that picking up thermals and constant turning must make it tricky to accurately pin point your position in a glider (unless they all carry GPS I'm not sure) but Silverstone is pretty big and easy to spot. When I fly its our SOP to always maintaining a listening watch on 121.5, do gliders do this? Then again would this be an appropriate method of telling someone they infringed airspace?

And Sir George sorry for my grammar. Unfortunately my A level English is fast becoming a long distant memory eroded down by spell checker and texting.

I think in this particular case whether the NOTAM'd RA(T) had ben available in a graphical format or not wouldn't have made much of a difference as to whether it was spotted or not - I believe (albeit third hand, so I acknowledge that this could be wrong) that the NOTAM WAS mentioned at the briefing for the competition being hosted at Bicester but it wasn't said that it was an RA(T). Either way, irrespective of whether it was simply a NAVW or RA(T), it was an example of poor interpretation/direction by the organisers and poor airmanship by the many competitors who ended up in the area. I sense that this point has been recognised by all involved and that hopefully everyone will learn something from it.

To pick up on the point about pinpointing your position in a glider - yes, Silverstone is usually easy to spot, but how accurately can a pilot (power or glider) visually ascertain that they're 6NM from a location? The short answer is that without a lot of validated practice (or electronic aids), you can't. Also, no, gliders don't generally monitor 121.5. Many gliders don't even have a radio. Some do, but they're constrained to gliding frequencies only, and others have 720ch radios which have the ability to listen on 121.5 but the reality is they'll be tuned to a gliding frequency (particularly in a competition where everyone will be monitoring the frequency designated for that competition's use).

[BillieBob]

....the competition organisers were partly to blame

I should say that the organisers bear most of the responsibility. To change the route, with very little notice, to one that passes only 200m from the southern edge of a NOTAMed TRA appears reckless in the extreme, However, this does not in any way mitigate the admitted failure of the pilots involved to read the relevant NOTAM. Perhaps it is as well that EASA intends to increase so significantly the regulation of gliding throughout Europe.

[goldeneaglepilot]

Poor airmanship

Wow... It is disturbing to read this thread, Mary is right, Glider pilots are trained to check Notams (or at least I was when I flew gliders) I have looked at the other forum quoted, at least one person admitted their mistake, how about the other 22 who he says were also in infringement?

It was a RAT, there is no dispute in that, to listen to the pathetic excuses including "did the Red Arrows boss ring the gliding competition to discuss the airshow with them" He did not need to.. Neither did he need to ring local airfields such as Turweston - It was Notamed, it’s the pilot’s responsibility to check before the flight

I quote below the posting of the pilot who owned up to the infringement:

I am flying in the competition at Bicester, and I busted the airspace pretty badly, along with 22 others.

Of course, it is our responsibility as pilots to check the NOTAMs and avoid situations like this - we have all accepted responsibility for what we did and have filled in the requisite forms of confession and sent them off to the CAA today. That said, there are a few factors which made it very easy to slip up this time. I offer these not as excuses, but rather, as explanations.

The original task took us well clear of the Silverstone, however, it was changed 20 minutes before launch due to new weather information to one which took us 200m south of the RA(T). At this point, you have to get ready to fly or else loose your spot in the queue, so there wasn't much chance to individually check the NOTAMs en route.

We were briefed about silverstone, but IMHO, not fully enough. It wasn't designated a 'penalty zone', and was only listed on the task sheet as a 'navigational warning'. I didn't find out that it was actually a RA(T) until after I landed. Again, I am not trying to shift the blame - it was up to me and the other pilots to properly check this and we didn't, but there would have certainly been less trouble if the full extent of the NOTAM had been drilled into us.

This is the Junior gliding championships. I've done a few of these and have no excuse, but there are quite a few pilots here who are very inexperienced - I fetched one girl out of her first field landing, and for quite a few this modest 200km task was the longest they've ever done.

The weather was unhelpful; to the south of the zone was the overcast frontal clag - any reasonable pilot would have steered north of track if he/she wasn't aware of the dangers at silverstone.

So all in all, lessons to be learnt - and there will be. We got an hour long bollocking this morning, and I am sure changes will be made to how briefings will be done in the future as a result. I am just glad no one got a red arrow in the wing.

And the view of the display was spectacular!

It seems to imply that the responsibility lay with the organiser of the competition to inform the pilots, that’s utter rubbish. At the end of the day it’s the pilot’s responsibility to check his aircraft, route and weather are safe. Yes it would have been helpful if they had been briefed, however that is a bonus, and it’s the pilot’s responsibility to check.

It seems to me that the BGA need to review its training methods, 23 pilots ignoring a RAT is inexcusable, so are excuses that its difficult to accurately work out your position in a glider - the only reason for that can be that someone has not been trained how to read a map in flight.

Equally disturbing is talk of some of the blame being due to young and inexperienced pilots. That again is inexcusable; they should not have been doing the task without adequate supervision or training if that was the case. Yes they do need to gain experience but not at risk to themselves or others.

I hope that the CAA do act upon this and at the very least identify the apparent weaknesses in training and implement a system to avoid this in the future. I hope that the CAA have the contact details of the 23 made available to them by the BGA and the organisers of the competition so that they can be educated to help them in the future.

1 pilot infringing is unfortunate, however 23 is beyond excuse.

[ShyTorque]

I believe (albeit third hand, so I acknowledge that this could be wrong) that the NOTAM WAS mentioned at the briefing for the competition being hosted at Bicester but it wasn't said that it was an RA(T).

There is no excuse for either the organisers or the individuals. Red Arrows UK displays always involve an RAT and the locations / dates / altitudes are published online weeks, often months, ahead, as a Mauve AIC. Last weekend's details were published on the AIS website on the 15th July!

http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/aip/cu...0_M_054_en.pdf

[MichaelJP59]

Various threads have discussed gliding and how they are used to flying in close proximity to each other. It must be very difficult to look down and read a map at the same time as keeping a lookout to see and avoid several close range aircraft.

Did this mass infringement occur because of a sheep type of flocking where everyone assumed that everyone else knew where they were going?

[oversteer]

I see a new NOTAM has been issued for the gliding competition, should keep everyone clear:

Q) EGTT/QWGLW/IV/M/W/000/999/5155N00108W250
B) FROM: 10/08/24 00:00C) TO: 10/08/29 23:59
E) MAJOR GLIDING COMPETITION INCLUDING CROSS-COUNTRY RTE.
INTENSE ACTIVITY SOMEWHERE WI 250NM RADIUS 5155N 00108W
(BICESTER AD). UP TO 80 GLIDERS AND 8 TUG ACFT MAY PARTICIPATE.
GLIDERS WILL NORMALLY OPR BLW INVERSION LVL OR BTN THE TOPS
OF ANY CU CLOUDS AND (IF AN INSTRUCTOR WATCHING) 500FT AGL.
AIRCRAFT WILL BE UNABLE TO COMPLY WITH RULES OF THE AIR.
LOWER: SFC
UPPER: UNL

[fisbangwollop]

Whats the point in having the Red's and showing off our Airforce when we dont have one anymore???

[mary meagher]

Rod1, thank you very much for the link, it certainly is a thorough discussion of the incident.

At least there was a cloud of gliders, drawing attention to something happening that shouldn't have happened. A whole bunch of gliders is easier to notice than the odd looney who bimbles off on his own without checking the notams.

Another poster has given good advice here. If it is a wonderful cross country day, particularly on a weekend, or when a competition has been NOTAMED,
a useful way of avoiding the traffic is to

(1) Fly below 1,500'. Gliders get nervous below that level, and prefer to work the height band between 2,000 and cloudbase.

(2) Fly above cloud if you can. It will be smoother up there anyhow.

(3) And of course, you are always looking out, right?

[Rod1]

“I see a new NOTAM has been issued for the gliding competition, should keep everyone clear:”

It is not intended to keep anyone clear, it is a navigation warning “intense gliding activity be careful” not an exclusion zone.

Rod1

[172driver]

INTENSE ACTIVITY SOMEWHERE WI 250NM RADIUS

Well, that's really narrowly defined then......

[dont overfil]

Hi Oversteer,
Tell me there is a decimal point missing in that notam.
250nm radius???
DO.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

AIRCRAFT WILL BE UNABLE TO COMPLY WITH RULES OF THE AIR

Why?

(And some extra chacters for the nanny.)

[BackPacker]

Of course, it is our responsibility as pilots to check the NOTAMs and avoid situations like this

Out of curiosity I just checked the three textbooks by Dick Corporaal which are the books used for the education of glider pilots in the Netherlands, up until well past the GPL level. These can best be compared to the Jeremy Pratt or Trevor Thom series, but in Dutch and for gliding. They are considered the standard texts. Glider exams are based on their content - in fact I believe Dick Corporaal is (or has been) part of the committee that drew up the exam regulations.

The word "NOTAM" is not mentioned anywhere.

Perhaps it is as well that EASA intends to increase so significantly the regulation of gliding throughout Europe.

I've got a PPL with 200 hours PIC and I've just finished my fourth midweek learning to glide. I have 40+ solo starts/landings and - apart from the two theory exams for which I do not get a waiver - I've almost completely fulfilled all requirements to do the GPL exam.

What I have seen is that gliders are excellent pilots but they're very bad at integrating their activity with other activities in the sky. The complete ignorance of the RA(T) as described here is a prime example, but here are several others:
- Complete ignorance of what a (mandatory in NL) transponder does and how it should be operated. Normal practice where I flew is to turn the transponder on (mode ACS) when the aircraft is pre-flighted in the morning, and not to touch it anymore until the aircraft is parked in the hangar for the night. But I've also stepped into aircraft which had done a number of flights earlier in the day, with the transponder still on standby.
- There are only few glider pilots who have a radio license. Lacking that they're not allowed to use 121.5, information services or other services, or transit controlled airspace. And even the few frequencies that they are allowed to use, are not used. No circuit calls for instance, but also no consisent monitoring of the designated field frequency on the ground. So even if a SEP that would be passing by would know and use the proper frequency, he'd get no answer to his request for traffic information.
- No proper altimeter setting procedures. At the start of the flight the altimeter is set to zero (QFE) and that's it. No reset to 1013.2 above the TL, even though there was a rather significant change of airspace class at FL65 where I flew.
- I have yet to see a glider pilot who sat down behind an internet terminal to check METARs, TAFs, NOTAMs or anything else that we consider standard practice in powered flying. The CFI does a briefing in the morning consisting of maybe two sentences about the expected weather and that's it. Even for pilots planning significant x-countries.

Now I wouldn't mind if it's just a few "old hands" who are going to do a local flight near the field, who ignore the NOTAMs and cannot be bothered to learn the proper operating procedures of all this newfangled technology. But it's actually not, or not properly, ingrained in the education of the new guys. And that's my greatest worry.

In that respect, it might indeed be a good idea if EASA takes a good look at education methods, tools, textbooks and the GPL exams, to see if they would require changing to bring them in line with international (ICAO) standards.

(Of course I can only speak for the glider club I went to. I hope that the image I got of the glider community there is not totally accurate in this respect.)