IFR OCAS north to south
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IFR OCAS north to south
Sorry, posted this on another thread but rather OT so perhaps it might be better as a new thread...
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I'm planning a flight from Benson to Carlisle in October and wondering if it can be done at all IFR OCAS (as I'm only IMC rated). If not and it has to be VFR then it greatly reduces the chances of making the trip at that time of year and I really don't want to drive all that way.
There seem to be a number of problems...
1. routing - thinking of DTY - TNT (probably with a dogleg to avoid some of East Midlands though they've been fine for transit before) - POL - direct. Alternative would be DTY - GAM - POL - dct, or even SWB - west over the sea (barmy to spend so much time over water unnecessarily, though).
2. VOR coverage. I'll have GPS as backup but don't have BRNAV GPS so I need to calculate whether I will pick up TLA before I lose POL, for example (need to get the books out as I've not done that sort of calculation since the IMCR!). There's a lot of flight over the Lakes.
3. clearances - not had any problems with getting class D clearances VFR before but for example, what are the chances of getting a clearance IFR TNT - POL at MSA of 3400ft? It's through the corner of the Manchester class D CTR which tops out at 3500 (where there is class A).
4. alternate will probably have to be Newcastle - where I gather the landing/handling is a bit painful...
5. flight plan - probably WILL file this due to the amount of time spent over inhospitable terrain.
Anyone done this IFR OCAS? It's making me think wistfully of getting an IR...
Tim
(edited to add - and all this depends on the freezing level anyway... MSA over the lakes will be up to 3700...)
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I'm planning a flight from Benson to Carlisle in October and wondering if it can be done at all IFR OCAS (as I'm only IMC rated). If not and it has to be VFR then it greatly reduces the chances of making the trip at that time of year and I really don't want to drive all that way.
There seem to be a number of problems...
1. routing - thinking of DTY - TNT (probably with a dogleg to avoid some of East Midlands though they've been fine for transit before) - POL - direct. Alternative would be DTY - GAM - POL - dct, or even SWB - west over the sea (barmy to spend so much time over water unnecessarily, though).
2. VOR coverage. I'll have GPS as backup but don't have BRNAV GPS so I need to calculate whether I will pick up TLA before I lose POL, for example (need to get the books out as I've not done that sort of calculation since the IMCR!). There's a lot of flight over the Lakes.
3. clearances - not had any problems with getting class D clearances VFR before but for example, what are the chances of getting a clearance IFR TNT - POL at MSA of 3400ft? It's through the corner of the Manchester class D CTR which tops out at 3500 (where there is class A).
4. alternate will probably have to be Newcastle - where I gather the landing/handling is a bit painful...
5. flight plan - probably WILL file this due to the amount of time spent over inhospitable terrain.
Anyone done this IFR OCAS? It's making me think wistfully of getting an IR...
Tim
(edited to add - and all this depends on the freezing level anyway... MSA over the lakes will be up to 3700...)
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Should be straight forward.
OCAS or Class D both of which are fine with IMCR would imply routing from Benson across to Shawbury and then through the Manchester low level corridor or via the WAL VOR courtesy of Liverpool. Then Direct Carlisle.
Use the GPS as primary nav and VOR/DME, NDB and a bit of dead reckoning as back up.
That's what I do!
OCAS or Class D both of which are fine with IMCR would imply routing from Benson across to Shawbury and then through the Manchester low level corridor or via the WAL VOR courtesy of Liverpool. Then Direct Carlisle.
Use the GPS as primary nav and VOR/DME, NDB and a bit of dead reckoning as back up.
That's what I do!
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Should not be problem getting IFR transit of East Midlands airspace DTY/TNT providing you are prepared to be flexible with Level/Routing-most times can get transits through OK but route does conflict with SID tracks from RWY27 and final turn to ILS on 09
We quite often put transits to Manch TNT/POL at that level so be suprised if major problem
We quite often put transits to Manch TNT/POL at that level so be suprised if major problem
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Thanks both, useful to know. Surely the Manchester LLC can't be negotiated IFR, though? I see the MEF for that square on the half-mil is 1100 but adding 300ft for the mythical uncharted mast takes me to 1400 for the MSA?
Or is it just that I can request IFR transit through the CTR but at a higher level (e.g. 1400)?
I must admit I last went through the LLC on my GFT in 2001 and we were definitely VFR then!
Tim
Or is it just that I can request IFR transit through the CTR but at a higher level (e.g. 1400)?
I must admit I last went through the LLC on my GFT in 2001 and we were definitely VFR then!
Tim
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Johnm
Probably not - I suppose that if the cloudbase is say 1500 then I could descend north of SWB to MSA and then lower for the LLC before climbing again once through it.
Are Liverpool usually happy with a routing via WAL?
Normal minima for me would be cloudbase 1000ft agl at destination (Carlisle) which is 1200ft AMSL. However I need to think about whether that is sensible single engined over the Lakes...
Tim
(PS and yes, I realised after I'd posted that it was south to north though I plan to come back again!)
Probably not - I suppose that if the cloudbase is say 1500 then I could descend north of SWB to MSA and then lower for the LLC before climbing again once through it.
Are Liverpool usually happy with a routing via WAL?
Normal minima for me would be cloudbase 1000ft agl at destination (Carlisle) which is 1200ft AMSL. However I need to think about whether that is sensible single engined over the Lakes...
Tim
(PS and yes, I realised after I'd posted that it was south to north though I plan to come back again!)
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To be brutally honest I would just fly it using a GPS, and not worry about VORs too much as there aren't many about and when flying below CAS one is often out of reception range.
I always try to route on VORs and NDBs but often it doesn't make sense, and then I route via airway intersections because they are in the GPS database and that makes it easy. Never use user waypoints
(unless totally unavoidable and in 9 years of flying I have had to only do it once, for a little airfield in Spain).
Stay talking to London Information. They have radar (but are not allowed to indicate such) and will give you a squawk, and can see you, so if you get into major trouble you can tell them, etc.
I always try to route on VORs and NDBs but often it doesn't make sense, and then I route via airway intersections because they are in the GPS database and that makes it easy. Never use user waypoints
(unless totally unavoidable and in 9 years of flying I have had to only do it once, for a little airfield in Spain).Stay talking to London Information. They have radar (but are not allowed to indicate such) and will give you a squawk, and can see you, so if you get into major trouble you can tell them, etc.
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Stay talking to London Information. They have radar (but are not allowed to indicate such)
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They have a device that uses derived radar information but this is only to be used in an attempt to avoid airspace infringements.
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It might be useful to know what that "device" is.
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My understanding (which may be incorrect) has been that London Info have a radar screen which shows only traffic with their 7xxx squawks.
This helps them stop CAS busts.
It ought to also enable them to offer some assistance in an emergency situation - better than just listening without having a clue where somebody is.
I could see why this was done: the people are not radar qualified ATCOs, or possibly not ATCOs at all, so they cannot be given the job of an officially radar qualified person. Those are the rules...
But in the context of this thread which is a flight under own navigation, I cannot see a problem doing the whole lot with the radio tuned to London Information.
If I was doing it myself, I would do it with a listening watch only, and calling up known radar services along the way.
The "problem" with actually talking to London Info used to be that they would keep asking for estimates to such and such a waypoint, which was time consuming for a pilot who was navigating by radio (GPS/VOR etc, where you are getting continuous lateral guidance and thus have no need for managing ETAs to waypoints). With a decent GPS, this is not an issue because you see, next to each waypoint, the ETA, and you can just instantly read it off.
I don't know whether London Info still do this; it would seem quite funny if they had to "cover up" their traffic visibility by asking traffic where it is
My recent experience of speaking to London Info is that they don't do that anymore, but my experience is limited to the brief times during flying back to the UK from say France, where one got a handover to London Info instead of London Control, but since one is descending anyway this doesn't matter. To me, the lack of queries together with a well timed instruction to descend below FL075, etc, indicated they could see exactly where I was, but of course nothing was ever spoken on the radio to suggest that.
This helps them stop CAS busts.
It ought to also enable them to offer some assistance in an emergency situation - better than just listening without having a clue where somebody is.
I could see why this was done: the people are not radar qualified ATCOs, or possibly not ATCOs at all, so they cannot be given the job of an officially radar qualified person. Those are the rules...
But in the context of this thread which is a flight under own navigation, I cannot see a problem doing the whole lot with the radio tuned to London Information.
If I was doing it myself, I would do it with a listening watch only, and calling up known radar services along the way.
The "problem" with actually talking to London Info used to be that they would keep asking for estimates to such and such a waypoint, which was time consuming for a pilot who was navigating by radio (GPS/VOR etc, where you are getting continuous lateral guidance and thus have no need for managing ETAs to waypoints). With a decent GPS, this is not an issue because you see, next to each waypoint, the ETA, and you can just instantly read it off.
I don't know whether London Info still do this; it would seem quite funny if they had to "cover up" their traffic visibility by asking traffic where it is
My recent experience of speaking to London Info is that they don't do that anymore, but my experience is limited to the brief times during flying back to the UK from say France, where one got a handover to London Info instead of London Control, but since one is descending anyway this doesn't matter. To me, the lack of queries together with a well timed instruction to descend below FL075, etc, indicated they could see exactly where I was, but of course nothing was ever spoken on the radio to suggest that.
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My understanding (which may be incorrect) has been that London Info have a radar screen which shows only traffic with their 7xxx squawks.
I think in general Scottish Info are more keen on ETAs than London.
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I think in general Scottish Info are more keen on ETAs than London.
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I find routing up and down to the east of the class A airspace when IFR is preferable as you can usually get a radar service all the way even at weekends and it can be done at a sensible level above cloud. Class D clearances never seem to be a problem. I stay clear of class A. I would go CFD GAM then direct from about 30miles north of GAM.
The west is of course the more direct. SWB WAL but it's a pain to have to decend below class A at Liverpool and I'm not sure how accomodating Birmingham would be if you asked for a radar service. I would never attempt the Manchester low level corridor IFR. Going by WAL you would still be in gliding distance from land.
Also 60% of the time the weather is better in the east.
DO.
The west is of course the more direct. SWB WAL but it's a pain to have to decend below class A at Liverpool and I'm not sure how accomodating Birmingham would be if you asked for a radar service. I would never attempt the Manchester low level corridor IFR. Going by WAL you would still be in gliding distance from land.
Also 60% of the time the weather is better in the east.
DO.
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I once planned to fly s. coast to Aberdeen, VFR, along the east coast, and the route was dead easy. On a good day one might get some good pics, too.
It is an all-GPS job though; very few VORs down there. But most flying is 100% GPS these days
(getting my coat now before "DFC" gets here, followed by Mr Guppy and his 7.62 bullet hole ridden aircraft)
It is an all-GPS job though; very few VORs down there. But most flying is 100% GPS these days
(getting my coat now before "DFC" gets here, followed by Mr Guppy and his 7.62 bullet hole ridden aircraft)
..coming back into their own again with NATS planning to remove most of the VORs 
!
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Neutron...
Ah so thats why your nav and estimates soooo accurate, and here's me thinking you used a chinagraph pencil and a tatty old chart!!
you want to get one of those KNS80 jobs.