IFR OCAS north to south
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
you want to get one of those KNS80 jobs. 
..coming back into their own again with NATS planning to remove most of the VORs
..coming back into their own again with NATS planning to remove most of the VORs
Today, it is a useless pointless box, worthwhile only as a "legal box" to carry in some old plane as a "BRNAV certified" installation, for IFR at FL095+, while you actually navigate using a handheld GPS
There is a real issue in the UK (and everywhere else in Europe) navigating low-level using VOR/DME, due to navaid coverage. GPS is the only game in town.. fortunately it is exceedingly reliable, and far more reliable than VOR.
I have a KN-72 VOR box which has a wonderful fault in it, whereby the deviation bar shows a wrong deviation long before the invalid flag pops into view. That kind of fault, which every instructor tells ya "cannot happen" would 100% sure kill somebody if they were flying a VOR approach in the "wrong" place.
VOR/DME is good as a backup for GPS - when you can get reception.
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 939
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To go back to the original question here's how I've actually flown the trip ( or close to it since I didn't start from Benson) with a cloud base around 1500AMSL.
Take off, climb to 3000ft or above depending on cloud tops and CAS. Use GPS as primary NAV with other aids as back up. Get a traffic service from BRIZE head for intersection NANTI at the start of the LLC. (Use the WHI NDB if you prefer)
Transfer to Shawbury from Brize (if on a TS IFR they'll probably hand you over anyway) . There is a VOR/DME there if you want it.
On approach to Nanti descend to 1200 ft for the LLC and assuming you break cloud as planned around 1500ft drop Shawbury and use the listening squawk for Manchester and monitor their frequency.
Track to the end of the corridor and climb back up to the base of CAS and then higher as CAS gets further above. Squawk 7000 and call Warton for TS IFR
Trundle along towards Carlisle using GPS again. You'll probably want to drop Warton and go to Scottish Info about 3/4 way to Carlisle as you'll lose contact with Warton close to Carlisle. Fly their NDB procedure if cloud base warrants it.
If cloud base too low for LLC (Manchester ATIS will give a good clue) then call Liverpool for IFR transit via WAL and then go back to the DCT Carlisle route when clear of Liverpool's airspace.
Take off, climb to 3000ft or above depending on cloud tops and CAS. Use GPS as primary NAV with other aids as back up. Get a traffic service from BRIZE head for intersection NANTI at the start of the LLC. (Use the WHI NDB if you prefer)
Transfer to Shawbury from Brize (if on a TS IFR they'll probably hand you over anyway) . There is a VOR/DME there if you want it.
On approach to Nanti descend to 1200 ft for the LLC and assuming you break cloud as planned around 1500ft drop Shawbury and use the listening squawk for Manchester and monitor their frequency.
Track to the end of the corridor and climb back up to the base of CAS and then higher as CAS gets further above. Squawk 7000 and call Warton for TS IFR
Trundle along towards Carlisle using GPS again. You'll probably want to drop Warton and go to Scottish Info about 3/4 way to Carlisle as you'll lose contact with Warton close to Carlisle. Fly their NDB procedure if cloud base warrants it.
If cloud base too low for LLC (Manchester ATIS will give a good clue) then call Liverpool for IFR transit via WAL and then go back to the DCT Carlisle route when clear of Liverpool's airspace.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: 18nm NE grice 28ft up
Posts: 1,129
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've never managed to raise Shawbury at the weekend, but you might get Hawarden.
Thats why I prefer the east as the once I called Birmingham for a service they were obviously too busy to help.
DO.
Thats why I prefer the east as the once I called Birmingham for a service they were obviously too busy to help.
DO.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Oxford
Posts: 2,042
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks Johnm, that's exactly what I needed to know - it can be done and has been! The other discussions were ... interesting (I've used the KNS80 in the past and found it, err, fascinating :-)).
I would give the trip no more than 50:50 anyway - I need to be able to fly up on a Saturday am and have a decent chance of getting back on the Sunday so I am at work on the Monday - so the forecast needs to be pretty good for the Sunday if I am to risk it. (OK, I wouldn't cry too many tears if I missed work on the Monday, but my employer might!)
Tim
I would give the trip no more than 50:50 anyway - I need to be able to fly up on a Saturday am and have a decent chance of getting back on the Sunday so I am at work on the Monday - so the forecast needs to be pretty good for the Sunday if I am to risk it. (OK, I wouldn't cry too many tears if I missed work on the Monday, but my employer might!)
Tim
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Up North
Age: 57
Posts: 557
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
IFR Carlisle-South
Tim,
I've done quite a lot IFR flights in and out of Carlisle to/from various places in the South, avoiding airways/class A. Have come to the conclusion that East side of the country is best.
West side is fine if you're VFR, never had any issues getting a clearance through Liverpool CAS and have done the LLR a few times, have tried several times, on different days of the week, at various times, but always got "sorry but no" from Manchester.
My preferred routing has evolved into something like CL to overhead Leeming, avoids Warcop DA, LARS off Newcastle/Durham/Leeming, then straight over the Vale of York MATZs, seamless LARS handovers until Doncaster, who they seem unable to establish a telephone link with, then Gamston DCT to wherever you like. I appreciate that routing this side of the country can be a little longer, but I think it's simpler and more predictable. Also, assuming we have the prevailing westerly wind, it'll generally be less cloudy that side of the hills, I've found you can usually be VMC on top without much trouble.
Tend to avoid trying to get an LBA clearance as due to their runway alignment (14/32) a transit to/from Carlisle, has you loitering on the approach/climbout, which obviously isn't top of an ATCOs wish list!
You should also be aware that currently Carlisle is A/G radio at weekends, not ATC, due to lack of controllers, a situation which could easily still prevail in October.
I've done quite a lot IFR flights in and out of Carlisle to/from various places in the South, avoiding airways/class A. Have come to the conclusion that East side of the country is best.
West side is fine if you're VFR, never had any issues getting a clearance through Liverpool CAS and have done the LLR a few times, have tried several times, on different days of the week, at various times, but always got "sorry but no" from Manchester.
My preferred routing has evolved into something like CL to overhead Leeming, avoids Warcop DA, LARS off Newcastle/Durham/Leeming, then straight over the Vale of York MATZs, seamless LARS handovers until Doncaster, who they seem unable to establish a telephone link with, then Gamston DCT to wherever you like. I appreciate that routing this side of the country can be a little longer, but I think it's simpler and more predictable. Also, assuming we have the prevailing westerly wind, it'll generally be less cloudy that side of the hills, I've found you can usually be VMC on top without much trouble.
Tend to avoid trying to get an LBA clearance as due to their runway alignment (14/32) a transit to/from Carlisle, has you loitering on the approach/climbout, which obviously isn't top of an ATCOs wish list!
You should also be aware that currently Carlisle is A/G radio at weekends, not ATC, due to lack of controllers, a situation which could easily still prevail in October.
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 939
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You should also be aware that currently Carlisle is A/G radio at weekends, not ATC, due to lack of controllers, a situation which could easily still prevail in October.
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: An ATC centre this side of the moon.
Posts: 1,160
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Q) Egtt/qfaah/iv/nbo/a/000/999/5456n00249w005
B) From: 10/08/25 08:00c) To: 10/08/27 17:30
E) Ad Hr Aug 25, 26 And 27, 0830-1100, 1200-1400 And 1430-1630 L4057/10
Q) Egtt/qstlt/iv/nbo/a/000/999/5456n00249w005
B) From: 10/08/28 08:00c) To: 10/08/29 17:30
E) Atc Not Avbl, Air/ground Ser And Visual Apch Only.
Locator Cl And Dme Co Ch44x Not Avbl. L3589/10
B) From: 10/08/25 08:00c) To: 10/08/27 17:30
E) Ad Hr Aug 25, 26 And 27, 0830-1100, 1200-1400 And 1430-1630 L4057/10
Q) Egtt/qstlt/iv/nbo/a/000/999/5456n00249w005
B) From: 10/08/28 08:00c) To: 10/08/29 17:30
E) Atc Not Avbl, Air/ground Ser And Visual Apch Only.
Locator Cl And Dme Co Ch44x Not Avbl. L3589/10
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Oxford
Posts: 2,042
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks all, interesting that Carlisle is VFR only at weekends which could kybosh the trip anyway!
Points noted about routing - will look again at the eastern route. I've flown into Leeming before and did it IFR east of East Midlands with no problems with clearances, via GAM. That was when Finningley was dormant, though.
Tim
Points noted about routing - will look again at the eastern route. I've flown into Leeming before and did it IFR east of East Midlands with no problems with clearances, via GAM. That was when Finningley was dormant, though.
Tim
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: a flight level far far away ...
Posts: 178
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"Thanks all, interesting that Carlisle is VFR only at weekends which could kybosh the trip anyway!"
From past experience, you could always be in contact with Carlisle to judge the traffic and positions of aircraft and then use the 360 radial from DCS VOR and descend to break cloud over the flat ground up there. As long as the bases are above circuit height, you would then be ok to approach visually.
(This post might open a can of worms with the posse of people against cloud breaks
)
From past experience, you could always be in contact with Carlisle to judge the traffic and positions of aircraft and then use the 360 radial from DCS VOR and descend to break cloud over the flat ground up there. As long as the bases are above circuit height, you would then be ok to approach visually.
(This post might open a can of worms with the posse of people against cloud breaks
)
