GA Pilot busts Red Arrows at Eastbourne
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The international notam feed is simply not going to include pictures. There is no way around this. This has been done to death, and sometimes it is better to just accept how things are.
And nobody is going to sit there drawing pictures from the notam feed, because of a) liability b) who pays their wages c) GA under 2000kg (most GA) doesn't pay route charges d) aviation regulation is run totally by accountants and lawyers.
What the notam originator should have done, very easily, was to put up a map on some website, and put the URL in the notam. This is a piece of cake. Why not? Laziness, stupidity, narrow mindedness, unwillingness to embrace anything since WW2. And maybe NATS funding politics... hey a domain name costs all of a tenner and then needs some awfully expensive hosting... all of another tenner, on some NATS server, but NATS internal accounting would probably charge out the hosting service at £100,000/year. IOW, all good standard aviation reasons... This one has been done to death too but it is valid.
The 3rd party software tools will never be 100% reliable because they cannot handle every possible inconsistency in the way the lat/long coordinates are laid out, so reliable parsing cannot be guaranteed. That's why I never use them; I use only the NATS site.
And nobody is going to sit there drawing pictures from the notam feed, because of a) liability b) who pays their wages c) GA under 2000kg (most GA) doesn't pay route charges d) aviation regulation is run totally by accountants and lawyers.
What the notam originator should have done, very easily, was to put up a map on some website, and put the URL in the notam. This is a piece of cake. Why not? Laziness, stupidity, narrow mindedness, unwillingness to embrace anything since WW2. And maybe NATS funding politics... hey a domain name costs all of a tenner and then needs some awfully expensive hosting... all of another tenner, on some NATS server, but NATS internal accounting would probably charge out the hosting service at £100,000/year. IOW, all good standard aviation reasons... This one has been done to death too but it is valid.
The 3rd party software tools will never be 100% reliable because they cannot handle every possible inconsistency in the way the lat/long coordinates are laid out, so reliable parsing cannot be guaranteed. That's why I never use them; I use only the NATS site.
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You are using an excuse Mike because they are too lazy / not technically expert enough to implement graphical Notams in addition to the official notams, on the AIS website.
1. NATS are the contractor. DfT in the form of CAA are the people who tell them what to do. You are however right in saying that AIS is "not technically expert enough to implement graphical Notams in addition to the official notams, on the AIS website". They are not programmers, they are in the main ATC experts. The website design and implementation is contracted out.
2. Like TAF and METAR NOTAM have a standard format worldwide so that the information is presented consistently. This is important for those people who are not native english speakers.
3. As HF says, graphical presentation would need to be in addition. It would also need to be funded. Personally I don't want to pay a levy to fund graphical presentation, which is why I suggested that those who are not happy with the free service are at liberty to use and pay for an alternative.
4. The ICAO NOTAM format is not designed for machine interpretation of the E line, which is free-form text. The Q line by contrast is designed for machine interpretation but is not designed to convey graphical information other than a vertical cylinder containing the activity. While a number of very clever people have written software to parse the E line and provide a graphical representation none of them can provide a reliable quality assured plot that works in all circumstances. The only way to do that would be to hire additional staff to provide the graphical plot. It is done where the plot is complex e.g. the Farnborough Air Show RA(T) but the Reds' RA(T) are not complex, 6nm radius round a point, to a given height.
5. In addition to the NOTAM AIC: M 054/2010 lists all of the Reds RA(T) for 5 Aug to 19 Sept including
Eastbourne 504535N 0001723E 8100 ft 13 August
Eastbourne 504535N 0001723E 8100 ft 14 August
Eastbourne 504535N 0001723E 8100 ft 14 August
What sort of "navigator" can't work out where Eastbourne is?
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IO540
Good idea...
... sometimes they do, but often refer to the AIC anyway. As does the 0500 tel #.
We could call it, errr, "AIS.Org.UK" ?
Looks like they listened to you
See AIC Link with a pretty picture
NoD
What the notam originator should have done, very easily, was to put up a map on some website
and put the URL in the notam
hey a domain name costs all of a tenner
Looks like they listened to you
See AIC Link with a pretty pictureNoD
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Nigel - I am aware the AIC is online, and the airshow TRAs usually come with pics.
But this is OK for "locals". (but even then it can take a while to find the pink/mauve/violet/white/whatever AIC with the pic in it, and I think you still need to create a login to the website if coming in at the root).
Internationally, almost nobody reads the AIP/AICs. Most pilots file IFR, brief using their own services, use Jepp in-flight data, and expect an ATC service even if going to a field which is OCAS. In the UK this doesn't happen (another long debate why, but it is pointless) so it should be the duty of the notam originator to provide a pointer to the website.
Sometimes they do, but in this case they don't (as of yesterday, when I flew in the area).
The basic issue, which surfaces at some many levels in light aviation (see e.g. the interminable AFPEx debates) is a lack of acceptance of the internet. Nearly every excuse for not doing something comes down to this.
The 0500 # probably cannot be dialed from many countries. This issue arises with fax2email services using non-geographical numbers (eg. using 0870 to finance the service) and is well established. Aviation is international and 0500 was a stupid idea.
But this is OK for "locals". (but even then it can take a while to find the pink/mauve/violet/white/whatever AIC with the pic in it, and I think you still need to create a login to the website if coming in at the root).
Internationally, almost nobody reads the AIP/AICs. Most pilots file IFR, brief using their own services, use Jepp in-flight data, and expect an ATC service even if going to a field which is OCAS. In the UK this doesn't happen (another long debate why, but it is pointless) so it should be the duty of the notam originator to provide a pointer to the website.
Sometimes they do, but in this case they don't (as of yesterday, when I flew in the area).
The basic issue, which surfaces at some many levels in light aviation (see e.g. the interminable AFPEx debates) is a lack of acceptance of the internet. Nearly every excuse for not doing something comes down to this.
The 0500 # probably cannot be dialed from many countries. This issue arises with fax2email services using non-geographical numbers (eg. using 0870 to finance the service) and is well established. Aviation is international and 0500 was a stupid idea.
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A few comments on the above:
Farnborough East "officially" has cover of approx. west of a line from Hastings to Isle of Grain. I'm suprised Manston opted to suggest that as a useful frequency after the channel crossing.
I was flying over Kent and elsewhere prior to the airshow(s), ie Eastborne , Headcorn and other events. It is very difficult to decide which frequency to monitor, particularly re the Red Arrows and the BBMF.
The timing of arrival and departures is variable but the transit altitude is the most worrying aspect.
I asked a student to check the NOTAMs for a Lydd-Shoreham flight and he pointed out that the AIC which stood proudly on the club wall was not the whole story. The 6nm radius should have been included.
I asked our local ATC if the Eastborne show had a frequency to monitor, but apparently one wasn't published. That would have provided a good idea of any possible conflicts. For our flight we routed well to the North, used mode S and talked to Farnborough.
Finally there are a small minority of pilots who are oblivious to all said in this thread and will bumble on, occaisionally getting caught out. It's the others who with the best will in the world will be knocked out of the air during one of these transits.
Farnborough East "officially" has cover of approx. west of a line from Hastings to Isle of Grain. I'm suprised Manston opted to suggest that as a useful frequency after the channel crossing.
I was flying over Kent and elsewhere prior to the airshow(s), ie Eastborne , Headcorn and other events. It is very difficult to decide which frequency to monitor, particularly re the Red Arrows and the BBMF.
The timing of arrival and departures is variable but the transit altitude is the most worrying aspect.
I asked a student to check the NOTAMs for a Lydd-Shoreham flight and he pointed out that the AIC which stood proudly on the club wall was not the whole story. The 6nm radius should have been included.
I asked our local ATC if the Eastborne show had a frequency to monitor, but apparently one wasn't published. That would have provided a good idea of any possible conflicts. For our flight we routed well to the North, used mode S and talked to Farnborough.
Finally there are a small minority of pilots who are oblivious to all said in this thread and will bumble on, occaisionally getting caught out. It's the others who with the best will in the world will be knocked out of the air during one of these transits.
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How does London Info deal with NOTAMs?
They appear to know of all navigationally significant NOTAMs.
Do they have someone / a team that plot the NOTAMs on a dialy basis?
and if they do, you can guess where this is leading.
I do sense this is a problem. On the one hand we have Mike wringing his hands telling us that is the way it is, while accepting with funding it would be possible, but advising that he would not be willing to pay.
On the other I sense over the years talking to pilots and reading the pilot forum there is a growing sense of dissatisfaction. A few years ago a few would post in favour of some form of official graphical representation - now I see more and more names adding their support to the ground swell.
I wonder at what point NATS / CAA have to recognise it is in the minority in failing to provide a service that the majority want. Will it take a serious airspace bust for a clever lawyer to argue the present service is not fit for purpose, referring to the endless stream of posts and comments. Certainly any system that is patently not working for the vast majority, whatever the rational, is on very dangerous ground whether it be in the litigeous times in which we live or in past times.
They appear to know of all navigationally significant NOTAMs.
Do they have someone / a team that plot the NOTAMs on a dialy basis?
and if they do, you can guess where this is leading.
I do sense this is a problem. On the one hand we have Mike wringing his hands telling us that is the way it is, while accepting with funding it would be possible, but advising that he would not be willing to pay.
On the other I sense over the years talking to pilots and reading the pilot forum there is a growing sense of dissatisfaction. A few years ago a few would post in favour of some form of official graphical representation - now I see more and more names adding their support to the ground swell.
I wonder at what point NATS / CAA have to recognise it is in the minority in failing to provide a service that the majority want. Will it take a serious airspace bust for a clever lawyer to argue the present service is not fit for purpose, referring to the endless stream of posts and comments. Certainly any system that is patently not working for the vast majority, whatever the rational, is on very dangerous ground whether it be in the litigeous times in which we live or in past times.
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Bristol display Sunday 15 Aug
Saw the reds yesterday at Ashton Court - superb as usual. My vantage point was not the best, but the last manoeuvre I saw was a seven-ship - ie no fly-by at the end by the whole team. Did I just miss it? Anybody know if this is how the 2010 display ends or was there something else?
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But this is OK for "locals". (but even then it can take a while to find the pink/mauve/violet/white/whatever AIC with the pic in it, and I think you still need to create a login to the website if coming in at the root).
it should be the duty of the notam originator to provide a pointer to the website.
The 0500 # probably cannot be dialed from many countries.
AIS Information Line on tel: 0500 354802 or +44(0)20 8750 3939.
Reliable graphical automated presentations will become possible with the implementation of xNOTAM, however all of the indications in this case are that the miscreant did not read the information, not that it was unintellegible or ambiguous. Horse - water - drink.
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How does London Info deal with NOTAMs?
They appear to know of all navigationally significant NOTAMs.
Do they have someone / a team that plot the NOTAMs on a dialy basis?
They appear to know of all navigationally significant NOTAMs.
Do they have someone / a team that plot the NOTAMs on a dialy basis?
I have no idea what the actual implementation is. It used to be a board on the wall but now it may be a digital representation (because London Info now have radar, even though - not being radar qualified i.e. the correct pay grade - they are not allowed to talk about it).
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Virtually every conversation about notams ( and god knows there are plenty of them) seems to end up talking about " the reds".
Same with infringements, air misses etc " the reds always seem to come up as a special case.
So it seems that "the reds" are the common factor.In any other risk management it would be the common factor that is removed.
Just food for thought!
Same with infringements, air misses etc " the reds always seem to come up as a special case.
So it seems that "the reds" are the common factor.In any other risk management it would be the common factor that is removed.
Just food for thought!
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It's nothing to do with pay grades IO540, as you well know. It's to do with licensing. Go and snipe at the CAA or whoever it is now that regulates European ATC licensing.
I do wish you'd give up your mind numbingly and mis-directed repetitive petty digs.
FA,
The NOTAM system is perfectly fit for purpose.
What is not fit for purpose is the attitude/mind set of too many in the amateur flying community. I use the word amateur deliberately, thinking along the lines of the following definition "a person inexperienced or unskilled in a particular activity".
I highlight unskilled deliberately because that's what I see on a daily basis.
It's always someone else's fault and all the effort is aimed at shifting collective responsibility for the group's inadequacies onto someone else.
Well sorry, it's not someone else's fault. Flying carries some responsibilities though unfortunately not all who participate seem to see it that way. Rather than directing ire at NATS or whoever, GA should be looking inwards and addressing the far too high number of participants who, for reasons that are poor to say the least, are doing a great disservice to those that may operate to a higher standard.
People who are intelligent enough to be able to fly an aeroplane are supposedly unable to create and interpret a simple narrow route brief from the AIS site? Or pick up the phone instead? Sorry, it doesn't wash. Stop the hand wringing about the system and instead first get the GA house in order.
You are your own worst enemies.
I do wish you'd give up your mind numbingly and mis-directed repetitive petty digs.
FA,
I wonder at what point NATS / CAA have to recognise it is in the minority in failing to provide a service that the majority want. Will it take a serious airspace bust for a clever lawyer to argue the present service is not fit for purpose, referring to the endless stream of posts and comments. Certainly any system that is patently not working for the vast majority, whatever the rational, is on very dangerous ground whether it be in the litigeous times in which we live or in past times.
What is not fit for purpose is the attitude/mind set of too many in the amateur flying community. I use the word amateur deliberately, thinking along the lines of the following definition "a person inexperienced or unskilled in a particular activity".
I highlight unskilled deliberately because that's what I see on a daily basis.
It's always someone else's fault and all the effort is aimed at shifting collective responsibility for the group's inadequacies onto someone else.
Well sorry, it's not someone else's fault. Flying carries some responsibilities though unfortunately not all who participate seem to see it that way. Rather than directing ire at NATS or whoever, GA should be looking inwards and addressing the far too high number of participants who, for reasons that are poor to say the least, are doing a great disservice to those that may operate to a higher standard.
People who are intelligent enough to be able to fly an aeroplane are supposedly unable to create and interpret a simple narrow route brief from the AIS site? Or pick up the phone instead? Sorry, it doesn't wash. Stop the hand wringing about the system and instead first get the GA house in order.
You are your own worst enemies.
It doesn't really insire much confidence when even the rare chart in an AIC contains the words
Some CMA text with little regard for user interpretation.
Quite agree that the NOTAM should, at the very least, include a URL link to a chart showing the area in question.
A digital version of the dear old pin board used by London Information is long overdue....
Yes, I'm sure that the miscreant wouldn't have read/understood the NOTAM in this particular case. But making it easier for him/her to do so should be a safety aim. It took a while to bludgeon the Met Office into providing a freely accessible user-friendly website and it's now high time that DfT/NATS were required to do the same.
NOT FOR OPERATIONAL USE - PLANNING PURPOSES ONLY
Quite agree that the NOTAM should, at the very least, include a URL link to a chart showing the area in question.
A digital version of the dear old pin board used by London Information is long overdue....
Yes, I'm sure that the miscreant wouldn't have read/understood the NOTAM in this particular case. But making it easier for him/her to do so should be a safety aim. It took a while to bludgeon the Met Office into providing a freely accessible user-friendly website and it's now high time that DfT/NATS were required to do the same.
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Hatz, the Red Arrows are NOT the common factor for infringements I have posted several times in here about twits who fly through the NOTAMed aerobatics' box at competitions. The Reds' situation is slightly different in that they are flying at speeds which most GA pilots can never hope to achieve in their aircraft. Look at the number of times and miles they fly without being the cause of an incident. Having your own NOTAMed area doesn't make you the cause of an incident it makes you the victim. Now look at who actually causes these incidents - NOT the Reds but (usually) GA pilots who either think the NOTAMs do not apply to them or who don't bother, or know how, to check them. There will always be the (very) odd one who may be lost or in difficulties.
Roffa, I agree with much of what you say. It is not too long since that I asked someone at the club if they had seen the NOTAMs for the day. I was pointed in the direction of the notice board and the alleged document was indicated to me. It was a longstanding notice regarding kite flying. When I repeated my request for the NOTAMs of the day I was told that that was it - a statement which (when I checked the website for myself) turned out to be far from the truth. I usually do my own checking but on this ocasion had asked as I was there much later in the day than I would normally be and thought someone might have posted them on the board.
I am not at home at the moment and when I am I have serious problems with my computer so I cannot check that my next bit of information is absolutely correct. In the past I have used a site called "SPINE". I believe it was originally designed for Glider pilots, but from what I remember, it will give you a pictorial image of the location of any NOTAMed area in your requested zones. It is, or was, free to use.
Roffa, I agree with much of what you say. It is not too long since that I asked someone at the club if they had seen the NOTAMs for the day. I was pointed in the direction of the notice board and the alleged document was indicated to me. It was a longstanding notice regarding kite flying. When I repeated my request for the NOTAMs of the day I was told that that was it - a statement which (when I checked the website for myself) turned out to be far from the truth. I usually do my own checking but on this ocasion had asked as I was there much later in the day than I would normally be and thought someone might have posted them on the board.
I am not at home at the moment and when I am I have serious problems with my computer so I cannot check that my next bit of information is absolutely correct. In the past I have used a site called "SPINE". I believe it was originally designed for Glider pilots, but from what I remember, it will give you a pictorial image of the location of any NOTAMed area in your requested zones. It is, or was, free to use.
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Roffa - I am sure you could make a lot of good "insider" contributions here but instead you rarely do but, whenever I write anything on any "ATC political" subject, you pop up like that kids' toy with a spring up its underside, and have a go. Rarely with any detail.
The police, the military, ATC, etc all close ranks the instant anybody even remotely suggests picking holes in certain areas. I rarely read the ATC forum on pprune but one doesn't have to read it often to get the same message....
Back to other stuff... yeah, there is a lot of really crap pilot behaviour which nobody who flies for real can deny because one can see it daily, but nobody wants to tackle this because it all starts with the PPL training system and nobody wants to tackle that because it is tightly tied in with ATPL hour building and general inertia at the CAA which for example has spent a couple of decades slagging off GPS and now they (and others) wonder what can be done about the few hundred CAS busts every year.
A major issue is that the 2-yearly flight with an instructor is practically meaningless when it comes to dragging old-time (by which I mean ones who have been flying for many years) pilots into the age of the internet, so they can get notams, weather, etc.
It's no use having a go at pilots.
The police, the military, ATC, etc all close ranks the instant anybody even remotely suggests picking holes in certain areas. I rarely read the ATC forum on pprune but one doesn't have to read it often to get the same message....
Back to other stuff... yeah, there is a lot of really crap pilot behaviour which nobody who flies for real can deny because one can see it daily, but nobody wants to tackle this because it all starts with the PPL training system and nobody wants to tackle that because it is tightly tied in with ATPL hour building and general inertia at the CAA which for example has spent a couple of decades slagging off GPS and now they (and others) wonder what can be done about the few hundred CAS busts every year.
A major issue is that the 2-yearly flight with an instructor is practically meaningless when it comes to dragging old-time (by which I mean ones who have been flying for many years) pilots into the age of the internet, so they can get notams, weather, etc.
It's no use having a go at pilots.
Last edited by IO540; 16th Aug 2010 at 11:34.
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I highly recomend this site for checking NOTAMs (with all the usual warnings)
UK 48-Hour Notams : Warnings and Restrictions
Takes about 30 secs and is much better than not checking.
Personally I find the AIS site very user aggressive (ie opposite of user friendly)
Is there no filtering of NOTAMS? it seems there is a neighbour of mine that has a kite flying NOTAM for 3 months and I've never seen a kite.
Start : 2010-08-10T10:45:00
End : 2010-11-10T16:30:00
Schedule : 1045-SS PLUS30
Lower : 0
Upper : 15
Location : Suffolk(52.283,0.933) - Radius 1nm
Code : QWCLW
Traffic : IV
E) KITE FLYING 1NM RADIUS 5217N 00056E (BADWELL ASH).
ON-SITE CTC, TEL 07767 243148. 10-08-0223/AS 5.
Whereas when I've submitted NOTAMS for an airshow I have had to chase them as they got lost on someones desk!!
UK 48-Hour Notams : Warnings and Restrictions
Takes about 30 secs and is much better than not checking.
Personally I find the AIS site very user aggressive (ie opposite of user friendly)
Is there no filtering of NOTAMS? it seems there is a neighbour of mine that has a kite flying NOTAM for 3 months and I've never seen a kite.
Start : 2010-08-10T10:45:00
End : 2010-11-10T16:30:00
Schedule : 1045-SS PLUS30
Lower : 0
Upper : 15
Location : Suffolk(52.283,0.933) - Radius 1nm
Code : QWCLW
Traffic : IV
E) KITE FLYING 1NM RADIUS 5217N 00056E (BADWELL ASH).
ON-SITE CTC, TEL 07767 243148. 10-08-0223/AS 5.
Whereas when I've submitted NOTAMS for an airshow I have had to chase them as they got lost on someones desk!!
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The NOTAM system is perfectly fit for purpose.
What is not fit for purpose is the attitude/mind set of too many in the amateur flying community. I use the word amateur deliberately, thinking along the lines of the following definition "a person inexperienced or unskilled in a particular activity".
What is not fit for purpose is the attitude/mind set of too many in the amateur flying community. I use the word amateur deliberately, thinking along the lines of the following definition "a person inexperienced or unskilled in a particular activity".
You, I and Mike may think it works well - but that is not the acid test.
However well conceived, however simple, however apparently obvious, however long the system has been in place it is not enough to argue it is fit for purpose if patently it is not serving the purpose for which it was created.
You can bet that if the great flying GA community were directly paying for the service many of its shortcomings would have been "fixed" a long time ago or the organisation would have gone bust.
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I don't understand why NOTAMs aren't published in a standardised XML format, then you could use some kind of reader to access them. I guess I'm too young to have my head stuck in ways of old, but some things in aviation absolutely perplex me sometimes.
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You have to remember that many of the 'systems' we are supposed to use come from the era when they were simply designed to filter out the 'sort of people we do not want'.
Roffa's response beautifully illustrates the point. Here is someone inside 'the system' basically saying either you do it our way or you should not be allowed to play the game. A wonderful 1950's approach to the problem - rather like shouting at people who do not speak English - it is soo much more intelligble at high volume!
DX then muddies the water with actually wanting an exclusive sterile bit of airspace but only being allowed an advisory warning and having to depend upon the good nature of people and the NOTAM system.
The system is just about workable - but stuffed with information of no use to the majority of GA flights. The important stuff is completely swamped by the trivia - anyone with the most modest understanding of human factors will tell you that the best place to hide things is in 'plain sight' - and that is exactly what the present NOTAM system does.
Whilst it remains somewhat impenetrable to many people this situation will continue. People inside 'the system' need to understand that the users amount to 700 CAT aircraft and their drivers and aroundabout 14,000 plus GA pilots. Designing a system for CAT and their briefing assistants is not actually addressing the consumer...................
Roffa's response beautifully illustrates the point. Here is someone inside 'the system' basically saying either you do it our way or you should not be allowed to play the game. A wonderful 1950's approach to the problem - rather like shouting at people who do not speak English - it is soo much more intelligble at high volume!
DX then muddies the water with actually wanting an exclusive sterile bit of airspace but only being allowed an advisory warning and having to depend upon the good nature of people and the NOTAM system.
The system is just about workable - but stuffed with information of no use to the majority of GA flights. The important stuff is completely swamped by the trivia - anyone with the most modest understanding of human factors will tell you that the best place to hide things is in 'plain sight' - and that is exactly what the present NOTAM system does.
Whilst it remains somewhat impenetrable to many people this situation will continue. People inside 'the system' need to understand that the users amount to 700 CAT aircraft and their drivers and aroundabout 14,000 plus GA pilots. Designing a system for CAT and their briefing assistants is not actually addressing the consumer...................
A little less conversation,
a little more aviation...
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The devil, as ever, is in the detail - there are several different versions of AIXM floating around, and as yet the FAA and Eurocontrol haven't settled on a standard for the digital NOTAM format - the FAA are already publishing some NOTAMS as AIXM, but Eurocontrol are still discussing design proposals.