GA Pilot busts Red Arrows at Eastbourne

[drambuster]

They probably also cannot transit IMC while in a formation

While flying past RAF Scampton a couple of years ago I did watch with some amazement the Arrows practicing formation loops . . . with the bottom half of the manoeuvre completely immersed in cloud. We were on top at about 6000' with cloud tops around 5000' or so. They seemed completely relaxed diving in standard formation straight into the clag and then re-appearing with perfection some seconds later heading up-hill !

So I reckon they would have no problem transiting in IMC conditions if they chose to . . .. . . . it just wouldn't look quite so impressive to the tax payers !!

[Pilot DAR]

A notam is going to do a whole lot of good if they are doing 360kt at 2000ft

Nigel has mentioned what would concern me: Are your birds respecting notams too? In Canada we have a 250KT speed limt below 10,000 feet. I understand it is there primarily from a birdstrike hazard point of view.

I propose that it is irresponsible to endanger an aircraft and crew, who are on nothing more than a demonstration flight, with an increased birdstrike hazard, let alone the danger to those on the ground of a striken aircraft coming down upon them!

[S-Works]

So I reckon they would have no problem transiting in IMC conditions if they chose to . . .. . . . it just wouldn't look quite so impressive to the tax payers !!

I should imagine so, these are the cream of the RAF, all with massive operational and instructional experience. These guys and gal are trained to fly at several hundred kts 200ft off the deck in IMC.

[englishal]

360K would be minimum sensible to fly a Hawk at these sort of levels, less than that formation becomes difficult, and options after a birdstrike / surge fairly limited.

That may be so, but to fly from Worthing to Corfe Castle at 360 kts at 2000' is suicidal...especially seeing as underneath solent airspace ever other bugger is flying over the solent at 1900' to remain clear. I know people who fly that route in Turbo Props VFR when they are repositioning them from Southampton - 250kt at 2000' which is the max speed allowed. Meet a Red at 360 kts coming the other way and I make that 610 kt closing speed - you'd never see and avoid. They'd be better off flying at 500'.

These guys and gal are trained to fly at several hundred kts 200ft off the deck in IMC.

Hmm....Maybe in VMC but I very much doubt in IMC unless they are suicidal....

[IO540]

In Canada we have a 250KT speed limt below 10,000 feet.

That is ICAO; true in the UK too. But the military are probably exempt.

[kharmael]

The Reds' transit route, including timings for each leg/ sector are published in NOTAMs, so anyone with enough airmanship to read them should know when they are due through any given area of airspace and look out/ avoid accordingly.

As long as aircraft are squawking then hopefully the Reds will pick them up on TCAS before anything untoward happens.

WRT birdstrikes. 2000ft is plenty of height to deal with a birdstrike! Especially considering all military pilots are trained to deal with birdstrikes tooling around at 500/ 250ft!

[Megaton]

They don't transit at 2000'. Transits are normally at 1000' to avoid light aircraft pottering around at 3000' and allow those on the ground a better view as they fly to and from display sites.

The Reds are considerably cheaper than many other forms of advertising (cf a series of adverts run by the Army during prime time tv) and have generated considerable goodwill and income for UK plc since their formation.

[IO540]

pick them up on TCAS

They have TCAS???

[Megaton]

No but they do have SIFF.

[c53204]

Dye

Assuming SIFF was working and they found him, they could have covered the 'intruder' in red, white and blue diesel. ;-)

[NigelOnDraft]

Nigel has mentioned what would concern me: Are your birds respecting notams too? In Canada we have a 250KT speed limt below 10,000 feet. I understand it is there primarily from a birdstrike hazard point of view.

WRT birdstrikes. 2000ft is plenty of height to deal with a birdstrike! Especially considering all military pilots are trained to deal with birdstrikes tooling around at 500/ 250ft!

You are somewhat missing my point 360K is a realistic minimum... the birdstrike hazard in a jet is not (airframe) "damage" but the typical surge needing a relight... which takes time / energy. 420K, typical low level speed, gives that time, 250K does not.

NoD

[Megaton]

And 360 kt is very convenient for the mental arithmetic required for LL nav!

[NigelOnDraft]

And 360 kt is very convenient for the mental arithmetic required for LL nav!

and plenty of "oh *** we're late" potential

NoD

[Megaton]

They're never late.......every one else might be early though!

[BEagle]

NO ACFT IS TO FLY WI AREA BOUNDED BY STRAIGHT LINES JOINING 504211N0001738E-504706N 0002333E-504955N 0001724E-504512N 0001133E-504211N 0001738E

Yet again a plea for AIS to upgrade their software to show an actual chart of the relevant NOTAM.... Before anyone says that there are alternatives available, the requirement should be for the official source to include graphic on-chart NOTAM displays. No whingeing from AIS apologists please, this is the 21st century - sort it!

I agree that 360KIAS is somewhat pedestrian for transiting in Class G - but 1000 ft seems quite reasonable.

[Mike Cross]

The official source has to comply with ICAO Standards & Recommended Practice. You are welcome to use (and pay for) an alternative if it is not to your taste.

The ICAO NOTAM system does not at present have the capability of transmitting graphical information. You may not like that but that's the way it is. You can fulminate to your heart's content but the UK does not have the competence to unilaterally alter ICAO standards.

[Human Factor]

The official source has to comply with ICAO Standards & Recommended Practice. You are welcome to use (and pay for) an alternative if it is not to your taste.

The ICAO NOTAM system does not at present have the capability of transmitting graphical information. You may not like that but that's the way it is. You can fulminate to your heart's content but the UK does not have the competence to unilaterally alter ICAO standards.

The official source would comply with those exact same ICAO Standards & Recommended Practices perfectly well by publishing a graphical representation in addition to the ICAO standard format.

[pulse1]

They don't transit at 2000'. Transits are normally at 1000' to avoid light aircraft pottering around at 3000' and allow those on the ground a better view as they fly to and from display sites.

The NOTAM says 2000'.

[englishal]

The ICAO NOTAM system does not at present have the capability of transmitting graphical information. You may not like that but that's the way it is. You can fulminate to your heart's content but the UK does not have the competence to unilaterally alter ICAO standards.

Well every other person who writes flight planning software seems quite capable of translating the "official" notam to a graphical representation. In the USA DUATS shows TFRs on a map. Skydemon shows Notams on a map. SkybookGA shows notams on a map. Notamplot shows notams on a map....etc etc etc..... You are using an excuse Mike because they are too lazy / not technically expert enough to implement graphical Notams in addition to the official notams, on the AIS website.

If I am honest, as long as my Skydemon Notams look ok, I don't bother going to the AIS website. Oh but of course AIS is the ONLY official source......

[Johnm]

Those whinging about the co-ordinates in the NOTAMs should be aware that they are merely a reminder of the AIC that contains a very clear and simple chart. It might be good for the NOTAM to cross reference the AIC and I think it usually does.