Turbulence: PA28 vs Pipersport
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Gt. Yarmouth, Norfolk
Age: 68
Posts: 799
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Have you seen the cost of a 30yr old Warrior annual recently?
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Midlands
Posts: 2,359
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
“Can one pay say a maintenance place to build a kit aeroplane? Would it be cheaper than a factory built one?”
No and probably not. The probably not depends on instrument fit. If you were to put the latest synthetic vision system into say a TB20, it would cost a huge amount of cash. One of the big savings on the LAA side is you can fit uncertified but equivalent kit for around 3 – 4 k. Leave out the avionic fit and you are unlikely to save, but you could get a more personalised result.
My idea of a known quantity is to have built the thing, know it inside and out and know it was not built in a rush or down to a price. When I take my nearest and dearest up, I find that helps a lot.
Rod1
No and probably not. The probably not depends on instrument fit. If you were to put the latest synthetic vision system into say a TB20, it would cost a huge amount of cash. One of the big savings on the LAA side is you can fit uncertified but equivalent kit for around 3 – 4 k. Leave out the avionic fit and you are unlikely to save, but you could get a more personalised result.
My idea of a known quantity is to have built the thing, know it inside and out and know it was not built in a rush or down to a price. When I take my nearest and dearest up, I find that helps a lot.
Rod1
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Buy an older aeroplane and rebuild it.
In your case you will end up with a plane which is quite close to a capable IFR tourer which if it was on the market now would go for about £250k. A used one would probably sell for £150k. A 2002 TB20 would now sell for about £150k (actual figure based on actual recent sales).
For fun, I looked at some old-dog TB20s which you can pick up for about £40k (probably nearer to 30k) with runout engines. You can get a new exchange Lyco for about $30-35k. Then install a G500+GNS530W from scratch, chucking away most of the old avionics (they will be useless anyway). Respray down to bare metal etc etc. Total cost will be about £100-120k and for that you will have a virtually new plane. Against buying one for £140-150k, this appears a marginal project, but if you know a really good engineering company which can do the lot in-house, and you like to micro-manage it, it would be worth doing because you will have a new engine, new (relevant) avionics, and everything relevant will be a known quantity. It would take about a year. I know somebody who did this on a 421C at Airtime in Bournemouth but a) a 421C is big enough to make it worth doing this on and b) Airtime could (at the time, anyway) do the whole lot in-house.
One doesn't need SV; all real IFR is done using standard techniques like published approaches.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: London
Age: 55
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don'r really follow. Rebuild sounds attractive, but wouldn't I be left with precisely the option I'm trying to avoid?
A cleaner and more reliable IFR-equipped big thirsty tank is still a big, thirsty tank.
I don't know many people that believe the oil price will fall over the next decade. If 30-40 litres/hr is expensive today, imagine what it would work out at $120/barrel.
That and a bit more is ballpark for us.
A cleaner and more reliable IFR-equipped big thirsty tank is still a big, thirsty tank.
I don't know many people that believe the oil price will fall over the next decade. If 30-40 litres/hr is expensive today, imagine what it would work out at $120/barrel.
I know of one chap with a well maintained 161 who paid £4k just after Part M came in. What sort of prices are people experiencing now?
Join Date: May 2001
Location: 75N 16E
Age: 54
Posts: 4,729
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Annual - about £1800 for 160HP simple SEP aeroplane on an ARC.
So Rod, with a kit plane one HAS to build it themselves do they? Obviously I could pretend to build one
but what I am getting at, for those of us who can't be arsed / aren't skilled / aren't patient enough to build one, could I not just take it around to my local Part M place and say "here build this" and it would be built to a good standard?
I like tinkering with stuff like avionics, but I can't be bothered to rivet panels for 2 weeks. It would be a kind of fun project to get a kit built....Maybe after the commander is done
So Rod, with a kit plane one HAS to build it themselves do they? Obviously I could pretend to build one
but what I am getting at, for those of us who can't be arsed / aren't skilled / aren't patient enough to build one, could I not just take it around to my local Part M place and say "here build this" and it would be built to a good standard?I like tinkering with stuff like avionics, but I can't be bothered to rivet panels for 2 weeks. It would be a kind of fun project to get a kit built....Maybe after the commander is done
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You are supposed to build it substantially yourself, but there is a well developed "assistance industry" around this one
However, and I know a few pilots who fly homebuilts, the number of hours you have to put in to get something decent is absolutely awesome. It is way beyond somebody with a "life". No suprise then that many never finish.
However, and I know a few pilots who fly homebuilts, the number of hours you have to put in to get something decent is absolutely awesome. It is way beyond somebody with a "life". No suprise then that many never finish.
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Midlands
Posts: 2,359
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
“could I not just take it around to my local Part M place and say "here build this" and it would be built to a good standard?”
You do not have to build it yourself, you can buy second-hand. LAA inspectors maintain the standards of LAA aircraft. The inspector has to sign off all the build stages and he would know if you have it done for you. You do not have to build it all, the rules say 51%. I took 1800 hours over 3 years 3 months, and managed to have a life at the same time. I did this by building it in my garage and getting the family involved. Some of the modern kits (including the “advanced airframe” MCR) can be built in 600 hours ish, but you do not learn as much. Part of the reason I built the more basic kit was to increase my understanding of the machine, as well as saving 4k.
If you want a way round the rules, get the aircraft built in the USA, with all the required LAA mods built in, and import it. I think the chances of getting away with this would be very good provided you chose a common machine like an RV.
IO unfortunately knows almost nothing about any of this and just makes it all up as he goes along. The completion rate of modern kits is very high indeed. 30 years ago, building from plans was almost the only option and that can take 10,000 hours, so the completion rate was poor, with many projects getting finished buy the third owner. Today, the LAA fleet (flying and under construction) is running at just over 4000 aircraft and rising. There are about 7500 sep C of A aircraft in the UK.
Rod1
You do not have to build it yourself, you can buy second-hand. LAA inspectors maintain the standards of LAA aircraft. The inspector has to sign off all the build stages and he would know if you have it done for you. You do not have to build it all, the rules say 51%. I took 1800 hours over 3 years 3 months, and managed to have a life at the same time. I did this by building it in my garage and getting the family involved. Some of the modern kits (including the “advanced airframe” MCR) can be built in 600 hours ish, but you do not learn as much. Part of the reason I built the more basic kit was to increase my understanding of the machine, as well as saving 4k.
If you want a way round the rules, get the aircraft built in the USA, with all the required LAA mods built in, and import it. I think the chances of getting away with this would be very good provided you chose a common machine like an RV.
IO unfortunately knows almost nothing about any of this and just makes it all up as he goes along. The completion rate of modern kits is very high indeed. 30 years ago, building from plans was almost the only option and that can take 10,000 hours, so the completion rate was poor, with many projects getting finished buy the third owner. Today, the LAA fleet (flying and under construction) is running at just over 4000 aircraft and rising. There are about 7500 sep C of A aircraft in the UK.
Rod1
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Midlands
Posts: 2,359
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SpreadEagle
Just to make sure I have got this straight.
You said;
“Czech Republic with a guy who had a kit built for him. After it was built and signed off by the LAA, he had some experts look over it for him. It cost him an additional £12,000 just to get all the avionics redone and had to sell it as seen, to someone else as he couldn't fly it in the state it is. It was full of stupid errors like the gascolator pointing forwards into the airflow. The whole thing needs a rebuild. For the peace of mind he has just taken delivery of his new factory built aircraft There is a bit of a buddy culture in some parts of the LAA, and so things get signed off that shouldn't. However you are the one signing to say you built it all along the way, and should you report someone for building dangerous aircraft, then they ground yours, leaving you between a rock and a hard place, so the builder just moves on. If you want a good builder I will recommend you one. I don't sell kits or get kick backs so it will be based purely on the aircraft I have seen them turn out.”
You sell the Pipersport in the UK.
You are offering a service to get LAA aircraft built professionally.
You can prove that if you report an illegal builder your own aircraft will be grounded.
Rod1
Just to make sure I have got this straight.
You said;
“Czech Republic with a guy who had a kit built for him. After it was built and signed off by the LAA, he had some experts look over it for him. It cost him an additional £12,000 just to get all the avionics redone and had to sell it as seen, to someone else as he couldn't fly it in the state it is. It was full of stupid errors like the gascolator pointing forwards into the airflow. The whole thing needs a rebuild. For the peace of mind he has just taken delivery of his new factory built aircraft There is a bit of a buddy culture in some parts of the LAA, and so things get signed off that shouldn't. However you are the one signing to say you built it all along the way, and should you report someone for building dangerous aircraft, then they ground yours, leaving you between a rock and a hard place, so the builder just moves on. If you want a good builder I will recommend you one. I don't sell kits or get kick backs so it will be based purely on the aircraft I have seen them turn out.”
You sell the Pipersport in the UK.
You are offering a service to get LAA aircraft built professionally.
You can prove that if you report an illegal builder your own aircraft will be grounded.
Rod1
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: suffolk
Posts: 399
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Put up or retract your statement.
You are obviously trying to use this forum to attract commercial buisness and slandering LAA inspectors and the whole LAA organisation in the process.
As an inspector myself I say iether name names or retract your statement.
May I aslo point out that the Sportscruiser ( ie Pipersport) is a direct decendant of the Zenair. Most of the development for this aircraft was overseen by the LAA. Piper came along and bought their way into it because they could see the future and unlike Cessna had no homegrown product.(as an aside ,Cessna have done exactly the same thing now, in that they have bought an ex-experimental design to plug their product gap).
Getting back to the point it is particularly gualling to see you come on here for obvious commercial gain, claiming to have extensive knowledge of what is effectively a LAA design and then berating the LAA and its system in order to further your own cause.
If you have issues with individual people take it up with LAA head office and do something about it.
don't come on here berating all and sundry to try to bolster your own buisness.
You are obviously trying to use this forum to attract commercial buisness and slandering LAA inspectors and the whole LAA organisation in the process.
As an inspector myself I say iether name names or retract your statement.
May I aslo point out that the Sportscruiser ( ie Pipersport) is a direct decendant of the Zenair. Most of the development for this aircraft was overseen by the LAA. Piper came along and bought their way into it because they could see the future and unlike Cessna had no homegrown product.(as an aside ,Cessna have done exactly the same thing now, in that they have bought an ex-experimental design to plug their product gap).
Getting back to the point it is particularly gualling to see you come on here for obvious commercial gain, claiming to have extensive knowledge of what is effectively a LAA design and then berating the LAA and its system in order to further your own cause.
If you have issues with individual people take it up with LAA head office and do something about it.
don't come on here berating all and sundry to try to bolster your own buisness.
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 626
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Whilst there are many SportCruisers on the UK reg, the vast majority are kit-built ones, not EASA Permit factory built ones and certinly no PiperSports as there is no EASA approval for FAA LSAs and the Restricted Type Certificate (RTC) hasn't been finalised yet. Therefore comparisons with the numbers of certified aircraft like the TECNAM P2002 isn't entirely fair.
There's certainly some very cleverly worded adverts in the media for the PiperSport that implies it is here, selling by the dozen (or two) and available for flying training use. Not so. Driving around in a SportCruiser with PiperSport stickers on it has apparently raised more than a few eyebrows on both sides of the pond.
Who will win the PiperSport importation in the UK eventually? The present company or Piper UK? Now that could be an interesting story to read....
Bit of professional foot shooting telling tales of professionally built SportCruisers - that should get the LAA interested - and rightly so.
There's certainly some very cleverly worded adverts in the media for the PiperSport that implies it is here, selling by the dozen (or two) and available for flying training use. Not so. Driving around in a SportCruiser with PiperSport stickers on it has apparently raised more than a few eyebrows on both sides of the pond.
Who will win the PiperSport importation in the UK eventually? The present company or Piper UK? Now that could be an interesting story to read....
Bit of professional foot shooting telling tales of professionally built SportCruisers - that should get the LAA interested - and rightly so.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: 75N 16E
Age: 54
Posts: 4,729
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ok, so could I buy a SC kit and give it to my maintenance company, then they build it for themselves, get it all signed off, and then sell it to me for the cost of the build ? I am sure as a Part M JAR 145 (or whatever it is) company they should be suitably qualified to be signed off by an LAA inspector (albeit maybe not in the "club?"! )...
I am sure as a Part M JAR 145 (or whatever it is) company they should be suitably qualified to be signed off by an LAA inspector (albeit maybe not in the "club?"! )...
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Midlands
Posts: 2,359
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SpreadEagle has deleted his posts and apologized by PM.
If you are interested in building and want to understand the rules etc have a look at;
http://www.lightaircraftassociation....0the%20LAA.pdf
Rod1
If you are interested in building and want to understand the rules etc have a look at;
http://www.lightaircraftassociation....0the%20LAA.pdf
Rod1
