IFR in kitplanes
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IFR in kitplanes
I know that it is illegal to fly in IMC in kitplanes, regardless of the panel fit. I also know that people do fly in IMC illegally. I am looking at building an RV8 and wondering if it is worth fitting an IFR panel (with a view to 'illegally' flying in IMC).
Does the CAA knowingly overlook this, or is it liable to pick out people to prosecute to make an example? Also surely there is a risk of getting denied clearance if ATC realise what you're up to?
Does the CAA knowingly overlook this, or is it liable to pick out people to prosecute to make an example? Also surely there is a risk of getting denied clearance if ATC realise what you're up to?
I'd say go for it. You never know when the bizarre old rules about no IFR will be brought into the modern age; I've seen kit panels that rival airliners, and are certainly far more capable than many of the traditional CofA machines that are according to the CAA much safer for IFR .
No reason not to have the safety net in case of inadvertant IMC, too...
No reason not to have the safety net in case of inadvertant IMC, too...
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There are a few people in the LAA actively pursuing that.
It is common practise here in the US, where you just need an IR and the specified equipment (DME, ADF not needed unless you're shooting an approach that calls for them).
Flying IFR in Class G airspace is virtually undetectable and quite within the capability of suitably trained pilots in suitably equipped aircraft whether homebuilt or otherwise.
Maybe worth checking on the LAA boards what the current status is.
The RV8's a great plane anyway, but most people would want some kind of autopilot for regular IFR flying.
It is common practise here in the US, where you just need an IR and the specified equipment (DME, ADF not needed unless you're shooting an approach that calls for them).
Flying IFR in Class G airspace is virtually undetectable and quite within the capability of suitably trained pilots in suitably equipped aircraft whether homebuilt or otherwise.
Maybe worth checking on the LAA boards what the current status is.
The RV8's a great plane anyway, but most people would want some kind of autopilot for regular IFR flying.
Given the relatively low cost of IMC capable kit nowadays, and the possibility of unplanned need to fly IMC, it would be silly (IMHO) not to go for a decent fit.
I would rather fly illegally but appropriately equipped than figure in an accident report through lack of useful kit. And if I had the kit, I would make sure I was trained to use it, and current.
Unless you are a purist restoring a vintage aircraft....
I would rather fly illegally but appropriately equipped than figure in an accident report through lack of useful kit. And if I had the kit, I would make sure I was trained to use it, and current.
Unless you are a purist restoring a vintage aircraft....
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You are never going to get done for flying "VFR" in IMC enroute, and many people do it all over the world.
What you do not want to do is end up at say 5000ft overhead La Rochelle, whose metar is OVC002, and call them up for a VFR approach
So if you are going to do stunts, you need to know what you are doing 
Regarding getting IFR approval, I cannot see this ever happening for the vast majority of homebuilts. Lightning protection is one of many things. The CAA would have to be happy with a sub-ICAO category on this (like the U.S. Experimental Category) and I can't see it happening. And even if they did it, it would never be any good abroad, and probably all you could do is overtly fly approaches in UK Class G.
The real value comes from being able to fly an ILS but ILS kit is not that cheap - a few k is probably the minimum.
What you do not want to do is end up at say 5000ft overhead La Rochelle, whose metar is OVC002, and call them up for a VFR approach
So if you are going to do stunts, you need to know what you are doing Regarding getting IFR approval, I cannot see this ever happening for the vast majority of homebuilts. Lightning protection is one of many things. The CAA would have to be happy with a sub-ICAO category on this (like the U.S. Experimental Category) and I can't see it happening. And even if they did it, it would never be any good abroad, and probably all you could do is overtly fly approaches in UK Class G.
The real value comes from being able to fly an ILS but ILS kit is not that cheap - a few k is probably the minimum.
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EASA is the way forward. We need to press on with trying to preserve the UK IMCR and then get Permit a/c with the appropriate kit installed cleared to make use of the safety benefits.
I'm hoping to go to the LAA Rally next month and if the Campaign are there I'll be telling them this straight.
Sir George Cayley
I'm hoping to go to the LAA Rally next month and if the Campaign are there I'll be telling them this straight.
Sir George Cayley
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Thanks folks, that pretty much goes with what I was thinking.
But what of actually flying under IFR, rather than 'stealth mode' VFR in IMC? The fundamental question is can you actually get away with flying IFR, in controlled airspace to or from a 'proper' airport, in a Permit aircraft?
But what of actually flying under IFR, rather than 'stealth mode' VFR in IMC? The fundamental question is can you actually get away with flying IFR, in controlled airspace to or from a 'proper' airport, in a Permit aircraft?
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Flying in IMC in a kit aircraft or without a rating to do so is not illegal, or at least it is only illegal if you do so intentionally.
If you find yourself in a situation when you have no other choice it may be the only option so it is no bad thing to have the kit and the training to do so safely. I'd not fly a kit aircraft unless I knew I had the basic equipment to cope with an unexpected incursion into IMC, and any pilot I taught to fly I would expect to be able to do a basic job on instruments.
If you find yourself in a situation when you have no other choice it may be the only option so it is no bad thing to have the kit and the training to do so safely. I'd not fly a kit aircraft unless I knew I had the basic equipment to cope with an unexpected incursion into IMC, and any pilot I taught to fly I would expect to be able to do a basic job on instruments.
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“The fundamental question is can you actually get away with flying IFR, in controlled airspace to or from a 'proper' airport, in a Permit aircraft?”
No, you will get caught. A Europa pilot was recently caught asking for an IFR clearance through EMA (in IMC), the rumour is he is to be prosecuted, but even if this is not the case he was caught. There are some “grey” areas which might allow you to bend the rules. If you build a Falco, you may get away with it as this aircraft was factory built and IFR approved, as well as being kit built, so most airports would assume an IFR arrival in a Falco would be Factory built and OK, but an RV or Europa would not stand a chance in my view.
The LAA were very bullish on getting IFR approval in the medium term, but I am not up to date on this.
Rod1
No, you will get caught. A Europa pilot was recently caught asking for an IFR clearance through EMA (in IMC), the rumour is he is to be prosecuted, but even if this is not the case he was caught. There are some “grey” areas which might allow you to bend the rules. If you build a Falco, you may get away with it as this aircraft was factory built and IFR approved, as well as being kit built, so most airports would assume an IFR arrival in a Falco would be Factory built and OK, but an RV or Europa would not stand a chance in my view.
The LAA were very bullish on getting IFR approval in the medium term, but I am not up to date on this.
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A formal IFR flight has to be filed via IFPS (Eurocontrol), on routes approved by the computer in Brussels.
It would be fun to know whether IFPS check that a given ICAO aircraft type designator is capable of being IFR approved. It would be an easy check, and you would get nicked as soon as the flight plan was filed.
Anyway I would never even try it. Formally, ATC are not the police, but some of them know about planes, and in some countries (Germany?) ATC is a kind of a branch of the police. You would need only one ATCO along the route to pick up on it...
Flying IFR in a proper IFR type but without any licenses/IR etc is much more doable and reportedly many have done it. If you know the flying protocol, the lingo, do the radio professionally, you will get away with it 100% - until you get a random ramp check. Or perhaps until somebody who knows you at your base airfield reports you following an IFR departure.
In the UK, IFR in Class G, undetectable enroute but you would likely get picked up asking for an instrument approach in IMC. The only way to fly an IAP would be on a mayday.
Certainly, if I was flying a non-IFR type I would have an ILS receiver (as well as a full IFR GPS etc) in there because ILS is the ultimate lifesaver.
It would be fun to know whether IFPS check that a given ICAO aircraft type designator is capable of being IFR approved. It would be an easy check, and you would get nicked as soon as the flight plan was filed.
Anyway I would never even try it. Formally, ATC are not the police, but some of them know about planes, and in some countries (Germany?) ATC is a kind of a branch of the police. You would need only one ATCO along the route to pick up on it...
Flying IFR in a proper IFR type but without any licenses/IR etc is much more doable and reportedly many have done it. If you know the flying protocol, the lingo, do the radio professionally, you will get away with it 100% - until you get a random ramp check. Or perhaps until somebody who knows you at your base airfield reports you following an IFR departure.
In the UK, IFR in Class G, undetectable enroute but you would likely get picked up asking for an instrument approach in IMC. The only way to fly an IAP would be on a mayday.
Certainly, if I was flying a non-IFR type I would have an ILS receiver (as well as a full IFR GPS etc) in there because ILS is the ultimate lifesaver.
Europaflyer Night/IFR kitplanes
Presumably the CAA has approved the above for Steve Noujaims RV7 Capetown record attempt in Sept/Oct.
The trip could not be done day/VFR.
General approval for IFR in controlled airspace is not likely in the near future, EASA/CAA inertia and their lack of inhouse knowledge of modern avionics/kitplanes.
You do not need 'approved' avionics in a kit plane to have IFR capability.
I recently flew an RV10 in USA with Dynon glass cockpit. Stand-by battery backup, dual screens for flight information and engine management. Autopilot with alt hold/Nav/GPSS coupling, dual AHRS, and ILS feed to the glass from garmin vhf/nav sets, and mode S.
All this equipment available in use in the UK at a fraction of the 'approved' cost
The system is lighter than a clockwork cockpit and no heavy unreliable vacuum system reqiured.
Far more capable than the average IFR approved spamcan!
The trip could not be done day/VFR.
General approval for IFR in controlled airspace is not likely in the near future, EASA/CAA inertia and their lack of inhouse knowledge of modern avionics/kitplanes.
You do not need 'approved' avionics in a kit plane to have IFR capability.
I recently flew an RV10 in USA with Dynon glass cockpit. Stand-by battery backup, dual screens for flight information and engine management. Autopilot with alt hold/Nav/GPSS coupling, dual AHRS, and ILS feed to the glass from garmin vhf/nav sets, and mode S.
All this equipment available in use in the UK at a fraction of the 'approved' cost
The system is lighter than a clockwork cockpit and no heavy unreliable vacuum system reqiured.
Far more capable than the average IFR approved spamcan!
Last edited by cessnapete; 7th Aug 2010 at 08:33.
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You do not need 'approved' avionics in a kit plane to have IFR capability.
Sub-ICAO, you could strap a pair of wings to the top of a Zanussi (not Miele; too good quality) washing machine and have it IFR approved
(I will resist saying that rather a lot of them have been sold )
no heavy unreliable vacuum system reqiured.
IO540
The RV10 owner had not fitted a back-up alternator as the glass screen kit have built in batt back-up of at least 30mins.
He also had a stand alone standby battery for Screens/GPS ,No.1 vhf/nav,and transponder with min one hour use as a get on the ground capability.
The N reg Allison engined P210 conversion I fly in UK, mainly IFR, has only one starter/generator.
The drive sheered last week en route at FL180!
There is no provision for a back up alternator, but it also has a large main batt and dedicated stby avionics batt. Combined, good for at least for 1 and 1/2 hours after gen failure, ample to get on the ground in IFR conditions.
He also had a stand alone standby battery for Screens/GPS ,No.1 vhf/nav,and transponder with min one hour use as a get on the ground capability.
The N reg Allison engined P210 conversion I fly in UK, mainly IFR, has only one starter/generator.
The drive sheered last week en route at FL180!
There is no provision for a back up alternator, but it also has a large main batt and dedicated stby avionics batt. Combined, good for at least for 1 and 1/2 hours after gen failure, ample to get on the ground in IFR conditions.
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A number of Cirrus flight plans have apparently been seen with the note 'ADF inop'.
I've heard rumoured the reason in some cases is that it's not actually installed, but owners feel that filing IFR with this on the FPL somehow covers them. A technicality now as the CAA are removing ADF from the relevant carriage requirement in the ANO.
Maybe, until EASA come round to the pragmatic solution we shouldn't shout too loudly and just get on with it?
Sir George Cayley
I've heard rumoured the reason in some cases is that it's not actually installed, but owners feel that filing IFR with this on the FPL somehow covers them. A technicality now as the CAA are removing ADF from the relevant carriage requirement in the ANO.
Maybe, until EASA come round to the pragmatic solution we shouldn't shout too loudly and just get on with it?
Sir George Cayley
Sir George Cayley
Ditto GPS Approaches in UK. Or lack of.
I use an aircraft in UK, which in the USA with our avionics kit, (Includes dual WAAS approved GPS sets) is able to carry out RAIM monitored, GPS LNAV/LPV letdowns, (approx Cat1 ILS limits) to over 1500 rural airfields.
Using EGNOS over here, we have a let-down to our strip with FAP and MAP fixes/GPS co-ords, measured on the ground under the flyover points.
This brings us within the strip width every time at our MAP of 500ft AGL.
This procedure is only used in VMC of course.
I use an aircraft in UK, which in the USA with our avionics kit, (Includes dual WAAS approved GPS sets) is able to carry out RAIM monitored, GPS LNAV/LPV letdowns, (approx Cat1 ILS limits) to over 1500 rural airfields.
Using EGNOS over here, we have a let-down to our strip with FAP and MAP fixes/GPS co-ords, measured on the ground under the flyover points.
This brings us within the strip width every time at our MAP of 500ft AGL.
This procedure is only used in VMC of course.
Passing thoughts:
- LAA will approve just about any instruments you want in your permit aircraft so long as you go through the normal mod approval process.
- You can always fly IFR in VMC in anything, quite legally; you can also ask for an any level of ATC service. Just don't accept an ATC clearance that would take you IMC (or in a permit aircraft, over built up areas, or in single engined aeroplanes contravene rule 5). I've done this in a flexwing through southampton zone, declined an ATC clearance over the city, and been given an alternative that suited everybody. This really isn't that difficult.
- If you are flying VFR, inadvertently go into IMC and use instruments to escape it safely, nobody is ever going to criticise this, so long as you didn't actually plan to go IMC, nor stay in it for prolonged periods.
- There are many VFR flights where IMC capability provedes a definite safety benefit. For example, I have quite a few times flown a track en-route to Scotland that took me straight from Rhyll to somewhere west of Carlisle. With that long sea crossing, I routinely don't have an kind of visual horizon - I'm legally VFR, but no way I'd want to do it without at-least an AI and turn indicator.
- You can save a lot of money by going for cheaper uncertified instruments, but if the LAA don't ensure "certified-like" checks on the quality of the installation, then you certainly should.
- All of the above equally applies to any 3-axis microlight (personally I'd not take a flexwing IMC if humanly possible, I'd rather land it in the nearest available field, and on one occasion have done).
- Needless to say, it would be a really good idea to get IMC training if flying with IMC instruments. It's not something to make up as you go along.
G
- LAA will approve just about any instruments you want in your permit aircraft so long as you go through the normal mod approval process.
- You can always fly IFR in VMC in anything, quite legally; you can also ask for an any level of ATC service. Just don't accept an ATC clearance that would take you IMC (or in a permit aircraft, over built up areas, or in single engined aeroplanes contravene rule 5). I've done this in a flexwing through southampton zone, declined an ATC clearance over the city, and been given an alternative that suited everybody. This really isn't that difficult.
- If you are flying VFR, inadvertently go into IMC and use instruments to escape it safely, nobody is ever going to criticise this, so long as you didn't actually plan to go IMC, nor stay in it for prolonged periods.
- There are many VFR flights where IMC capability provedes a definite safety benefit. For example, I have quite a few times flown a track en-route to Scotland that took me straight from Rhyll to somewhere west of Carlisle. With that long sea crossing, I routinely don't have an kind of visual horizon - I'm legally VFR, but no way I'd want to do it without at-least an AI and turn indicator.
- You can save a lot of money by going for cheaper uncertified instruments, but if the LAA don't ensure "certified-like" checks on the quality of the installation, then you certainly should.
- All of the above equally applies to any 3-axis microlight (personally I'd not take a flexwing IMC if humanly possible, I'd rather land it in the nearest available field, and on one occasion have done).
- Needless to say, it would be a really good idea to get IMC training if flying with IMC instruments. It's not something to make up as you go along.
G
Maybe, until EASA come round to the pragmatic solution....
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The RV10 owner had not fitted a back-up alternator as the glass screen kit have built in batt back-up of at least 30mins.
A technicality now as the CAA are removing ADF from the relevant carriage requirement in the ANO.
Using EGNOS over here, we have a let-down to our strip with FAP and MAP fixes/GPS co-ords, measured on the ground under the flyover points.
Maybe some "homebuilt market" GPS can provide LPV guidance? For example the Garmin 496 can be configured to display a virtual ILS, which IIRC takes you down to 500ft AGL. I have the setup procedure somewhere; never tried it on mine. Apparently, some pilots use this as a double check when flying an ILS
What you can of course do is load a few waypoints, set the GPS to 1nm FS, fly to the IAF, then set the GPS to 0.3nm full-scale, fly to the FAF, and doing your own VNAV you fly effectively a DIY GPS approach. Lots of pilots, myself included, fly published nonprecision navaid-based approaches in this way (using the OBS mode to fly the published procedure track, rather than loading user waypoints which is a bit dodgy if you drop a digit, etc
) but then WAAS/EGNOS is not relevant (except for the extra assurance, but you don't need the extra accuracy to hit the runway in the centre) because you are doing your own VNAV.
You can always fly IFR in VMC in anything, quite legally; you can also ask for an any level of ATC service. Just don't accept an ATC clearance that would take you IMC (or in a permit aircraft, over built up areas, or in single engined aeroplanes contravene rule 5). I've done this in a flexwing through southampton zone, declined an ATC clearance over the city, and been given an alternative that suited everybody. This really isn't that difficult.
There are many VFR flights where IMC capability provedes a definite safety benefit.
I would very much argue that IMC capability is highly desirable for VFR flights, but for other reasons
FWIW, one of the best things to have in a plane for going places, VFR or IFR, is an autopilot. The U.S. Experimental market ones are pretty impressive, especially for the prices, but I don't think they are light enough for many UK homebuilts.
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which IIRC takes you down to 500ft