Entry to PPL.

[WishesToFly]

Hello.

My name is Alex and I am based in Basildon,Essex and wishes to take up flying one day and gain my PPL, but I would like some sensible advice from ppl holders and students first so that I don't get my hopes up and that I know exactly what to expect.

Here are my questions:

Is bulk buying hours the best way to go about training for your ppl, either paying the whole course upfront or in a few chunks?

Secondly, do you need a lot of disposable income each month to maintain your licence? This is a very expensive hobby, I am not rich and would probably only scrape together enough cash to purchase an hours flying time per month, based on this is flying really reality?

Thirdly, I worry about the dreaded 'recover from a stall' this is enough to scare the 'sh*t out of me, but I have the flying bug, I love flying and there's only so many trial lessons a man can do, but the though of stalling freaks me out!

I also consider; would I just be better off buying a decent headset and taking up the spare seat every now and again and fuel sharing with a local pilot?

I need to be sensible, and weigh up the options, is flying possible?, or is my lack of cash after training going to kill my potential license that cost so much to gain?

Kind Regards,

Alex

[FlyingStone]

1. Do NOT pay anything up front! The moment you do so, the Murphy's Law steps in and everything will go wrong - FTO going broke, aircraft gets involved in an accident, etc.

2. Theoretically in order to maintain SEP (single engine piston) rating on JAA PPL(A) you need 12 hours every two years (of which of of them must be with an instructor) or even cheaper solution - one flight with an examiner every two years. If you want to carry (non-revenue of course) passengers, you will have to have 3 take-offs and landings in the last 90 days - and if you will get night qualification, one of those 3 takeoffs/landings has to be done at night.

3. First time I was demonstrated a stall and recovery at first signs of buffet, I though I was facing imminent death and scared the s*** out of me. Really, I thought I could never adapt to "free falls", but a year and couple of days later I did my first spin recovery training and it was the best fun I've had in years As you do more flying and the body and mind adapt, stalling will feel no different as a little turbulence. Besides, most of today's training aircraft are very stable throughout the stall and all you can feel is "mushing" - try a Tomahawk if you can find one and look at its tail during stall - not pretty

Buying a decent (but not 1000€ worth) headset is in my opinion a must-have, especially if you plan to fly in lot of different aircraft. Plus those headsets that everybody uses are usually worn up and won't give you the best protection. I had ear-pain after almost every flight and the day I decided to buy my own pair of headset (but exactly the same model that I was using before) - pain gone

[Tommo89]

Hi Alex!

Although some schools offer quite significant discounts for paying upfront for lessons in advance, the general consensus is that this is not a good idea as you may not get any of your money back if the flying school was to go bust!

Private flying as you say is certainly very expensive, but if you are motivated enough to learn to fly and get your licence you will find a way to do it I always think. Perhaps consider going to the States to do it a bit cheaper and then doing the some training over here to familiarise yourself and get comfortable with the differences. Several bursaries and scholarships are available from organisations such as the Air League and GAPAN (although I'm not sure how old you are - most of these have an upper age limit of around mid 20s).

You shouldn't worry about stall recovery - It's not a scary or aggressive manoeuvre - just involves pitching down and simultaneously applying full power (and then rolling the wings level if necessary). It's all over in a flash and not a overly difficult or unpleasant experience. Your instructor will demonstrate and teach you all this so don't worry if it seems a lot to take in at first.

The final questions is something only you can answer properly! My advice would be to carry on with the research your doing, visit a few local flying schools to have a look around and chat with the instructors/students, and have a trial lesson or two. After that everything ought to be clearer to you and your instructor can properly answer any of your questions.

My instinct would be to just go for it and give it a try...you'll probably love it! There's also gliding to consider as an alternative which is cheaper than powered flying and in many ways just as rewarding if not more so!

Hope that helps!

[WishesToFly]

Thanks for your responses, there are some very valid answers here.

I was under the impression that flying clubs and schools offer the best discounts when paying up front. I live close to Southend which has 3 clubs and also close to Stapleford that has been training pilots for as long as I can remember.

I will definitely visit these schools and see what they have to offer, but I guess they will all do the same 'try and get you to sign up' or offer some crazy discount on a trial lesson.

Regarding the Stall, they do appear a scary but again I am guessing its down to confidence, practice and experience (and a little mind over matter!)....

I did also consider the NPPL, I have mixed views on this, but UK restriction takes the fun out of this and it appears to be 'watered down licence'.....

Finally as for headgear, what is a respectful manufacturer of headgear that wont break the bank and ideal for students? There are many headsets on ebay, especially David Clark, but the comment on used headgear giving headaches could be a really bad thing for me....

Thanks for your replies guys!

Much appreciated!

Alex (26)

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Just in case nobody else mentions this:

DO NOT PAY UP FRONT

See many previous threads on this topic. Bottom line is that schools go bust and people lose thousands. Why would a school give you a discount that amounts to a high rate of interest on the money they're borrowing from you? - because they've already tried the bank, and got told "no" because they're a bad risk, that's why. You're better at judging credit risks than the bank are you? - I know I'm not.

Whilst learning, it's better to save up and have several lessons close together rather than one a month - at one a month you won't make any progress because you'll spend the entire lesson getting back to where you were last time. Once you've got the licence you might prefer to fly once a fortnight during the summer and forget the winter rather than try to fly once a month all the year round.

To maintain the licence you need, at minimum, to pass one one-hour test every two years, no other flying is needed. The twelve hour stuff is just if you don't want to take the test.

Stall recovery is really really not a problem. (Incipient spin, now, where you fall out of the sky sideways ... )

Don't buy a headset just for occasional rides with other pilots - you'll be able to borrow.

[hazholmes]

Hi,

I too absolutely crapped myself at the thought of stalling. Before I knew anything about it, I thought we'd plummet miles down and end up making a fiery mess of a nearby farmers field - how wrong was I!! I'm a big girls blouse with things like that and I didnt find it remotely scary or unsettling.

Secondedly, I don't earn a great deal and have been making do with 2-3 lessons a month, sometimes less. It's ok, just takes a bit longer, but it can work to your advantage if you make it. Plenty of time to get stuck into the theory, researching your next nav flight, go over your checklist etc. etc.

Best of luck.

[The Old Fat One]

To maintain the licence you need, at minimum, to pass one one-hour test every two years, no other flying is needed. The twelve hour stuff is just if you don't want to take the test.

Errrrrrrr.....currency....competency....continuity?????

Why would anybody want to spend a small fortune on a PPL to fly a test once every two years????????

Why would a school give you a discount that amounts to a high rate of interest on the money they're borrowing from you? - because they've already tried the bank, and got told "no"

All businesses (not just flight schools) offer discount for money up front bulk orders. It's got nothing to do with the banks refusing loans (with all due respect, what a load of tosh). It's because businesses value confirmed sales and because up front money eases cash flow, thus they offer premium rates for advance sales.

Many (most...all) flying schools offer up to 25 percent discounts for blocks of lessons or complete courses. It's up to the student to do due diligence on the company and its trading history.

That said, in the current climate, pay as you go is a sensible option, but don't beat up on the flying schools for their promotional rates...it is exactly the same concept as the pricing you see everyday in a supermarket.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

it is exactly the same concept as the pricing you see everyday in a supermarket

B*ll*cks, to be as polite as I can.

No supermarket has ever offered me a discount if I lend them a year's grocery money (which is the same order of magnitude as paying for a PPL up front). If they did I wouldn't take the offer, I'd look around for a supermarket less likely to go bust.

The equivalent of the supermarket's offer would be the emails I get from my club from time to time: "there's spare capacity today, come and fly this afternoon for a 5% discount". Which I would be paying for after flying, in the normal, and sane, fashion.

[mingmongaloo]

He is right about the bulk discounts being more about cashflow than bank loans though. Plenty of businesses in every sector of the economy do this, it doesn't mean they're having difficulty securing financing.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

He is right about the bulk discounts being more about cashflow than bank loans though.

Sorry, I just don't believe you.

I run a business. If I needed cash and had a choice between

(1) borrowing from my bank at X%
(2) borrowing from my customers at 3X%

guess which I'd do? And it wouldn't really be my free choice, it would be my duty under company law to maximise shareholder value by taking the cheaper option.

I would only be borrowing from the customers if the hank had turned me down.

(Actually I do borrow from some of my customers. I make them pay in advance because for the amount of business involved it's not worth the hassle of doing credit checking and buying insurance and taking advice from foreign lawyers etc. If they don't want to pay in advance, no problem, I won't do the work, I can find other things to do. But that doesn't apply to flying lessons which are much more of a buyer's market.)

[24Carrot]

... would probably only scrape together enough cash to purchase an hours flying time per month ...

A couple of points:

At this rate, getting the license would take well over 4 years, unless your learning is stellar, and the weather, etc is perfect. But you also talk about paying in full up-front, so I assume you are talking about the ongoing cost post-PPL.

One way to stretch the hours post-PPL is to fly places with another PPL buddy, one leg each. No extra hours to log, but it should help with currency, safety, workload and be more fun. And pilot pax are easier to please!

On the pre-pay: some schools do offer a Gertrude-style discount for just staying in credit (much less drastic than paying everything up front). I have done this - I suppose it helps the school avoid bad debts, and gets you in and out of Ops faster. But I did that PPL in 6 months, so my effective interest savings rate was very high. (Divide total discount on all the lessons by average credit balance times length of course, then multiply by 100).

[BackPacker]

I am not rich and would probably only scrape together enough cash to purchase an hours flying time per month, based on this is flying really reality?

If you don't have the disposable income (*) right now to pay for at least something like 15 hours annually, don't even start on your PPL. You might make it all the way to your exams, eventually, but then you'll find yourself just flying circles around the airport to stay reasonably current. The fascination with that wears off rather quickly and pretty soon you'll realise that your money might be spent better elsewhere.

(*) With "disposable income" I mean money that's still in the bank after a month, when the new paycheck comes in, and after all the bills have been paid for. Not money that you might be able to scrape together by saving on other expenses.

I did also consider the NPPL, I have mixed views on this, but UK restriction takes the fun out of this and it appears to be 'watered down licence'.....

With the money you've got to spend, being restricted to the UK is not a problem at all. In fact, if you were to be restricted to a 50-nm radius around your airport you'd be fine. Equally, with your budget you're not going to do an IR, ME or other rating. Trust me, the NPPL is probably just fine in your case. And if you do find it too "watered down" you can always upgrade to a full PPL.

Think about this: Why do you want to fly? Is it because you think it opens up the worlds skies for you, so you can travel anywhere in luxury and style? Very few of us actually do that, and that is something that's totally out of your financial reach. Or is it simply because you want to experience the magic of flight? In that case there are far more inexpensive opportunities than a PPL. Gliders, Microlights/Ultralights, NPPL, you name it.

[WishesToFly]

so I assume you are talking about the ongoing cost post-PPL

Hi you are quite right, I was talking about post ppl and the pricing. I like the idea of buddying up and doing one leg each as that provides plenty more experience for the cost of sharing fuel (I like that idea).

Regarding upfront costs.....

£6,250 is a lot of cash upfront to just hand over and get your 45 hours experience, Stapleford Aerodrome offers this good rate, although I fully understand that some schools do gust bust, Stapleford appears to be going strong, a very popular starting ground for students that has been training for well over 30 years....But you can never say never! I certainly will be horrified if I lost all that cash, so would probably pay hourly.

But then my local airfield is Southend, which is a small regional airport, larger runway, bigger/ heavier traffic, commercial and domestic operations as well as private flying.....A little more expensive to learn to fly but I think I prefer the airfield because it is local and many say you will gain better experience because its a regional airport with active operations ongoing....

Good valid answers here!

Dont worry about the bank stuff I get the message

Cheers, Alex

[UAV689]

Alex - why not give gliding a go to start with, there are lots of clubs within an hour from you, one I know of will allow you to train for your NPPL in a motorglider (a gutless underpowered aircraft) for £36 an hour, and the gliding only costs £5 a launch! If you can glide first powered flying is so much easier! And it will let you see if you like it first before you spend lots of money.

[IO540]

Gertrude is right about financing costs. Giving say a 10% discount to a customer is an awfully expensive way of raising cash; one could get it on a credit card for less than that

However, the motive for schools/clubs (the terminology is largely interchangeable, in the UK) doing this is not just to raise cash but also to stop them walking out if they get p1ssed off with

- bad service
- crappy planes
- "funny" instructors

and I think the above are more common than schools going bust. Basically if you pay up front, the school has got you over the barrel.

I've been in business for 32 years and would feel really sick to be putting customers in that kind of position.

[mingmongaloo]

I wouldn't say clubs and schools are largely interchangeable, while some places blur the boundary a bit there are plenty of places that are 100% schools with no club aspect, and a lot of places for learning PPL are clubs with schools attached - it's an important distinction, especially if you fancy being part of the community you learnt with after you get your license.

Gertrude, the loss of money through a discount needs to be offset against the fact that the longer the payment is spread out over, the less certain the sum total becomes. I don't know how many people start a PPL and never finish it, but given the costs and focus of training I'd say it's a lot, especially when it gets to the circuit bashing point. Given the economy, the length of training and the high cost I'd say a PPL student is just about one of the most unreliable sources of income you can get.

[DeeCee]

Dear WishesToFly,

Welcome. Here are some tips; firstly take your time, buy a logbook and take some introductory flights and log them. It is fun and it all counts, but you will be finding out who and what you like best.

Secondly, it may be better to learn at Southend because it is nearer. I say this because bad weather along with available cash may be amongst your biggest obstacles to getting flights in. I learned in winter and would get a call from my Instructor asking if I could get down to the airfield quickly because there was a 'hole' in the bad weather, or there had been a cancellation.

Thirdly, a stall can be quite a non event from a movement point of view. It is perfectly possible that a passenger in the back may not even notice anything untoward has happened, particularly on a hot day when its been a little bumpy. I am not suggesting that is a good idea (to stop me getting flamed) but pointing out that a stall is just part of your training and once you have done one you will wonder what the fuss was about.

Lastly, you are the customer and do not accept anything that you would not accept when buying elsewhere. You will find learning to fly slightly stressful at times because it is a learning curve outside of your normal experiences and you should not accept arrangements that take you outside of your comfort zone e.g. Instructor keeping you hanging around each time you turn up because he is overbooked, or a variety of Instructors when you have been lead to accept you have one assigned. Lessons cancelled etc.

However, it is terrific fun and you will make some new friends. I have never been frightened by something that has happened, concerned sometimes, but only because of my inexperience at the time. When I got my license I started flying further afield and learned a lot more! Have fun.

[AdamFrisch]

Not paying up front is a good advice. However, I would suggest you have saved a pot of money for when you start, so that you can keep learning at a good pace. When you come back to it for an hour every month, a lot of time and knowledge gets wasted and it results in 20-50% more instruction needed in the end, in my experience. So if you can, get most of the funds in place before you start.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

- bad service
- crappy planes
- "funny" instructors

Good points IO540 ... and there's another one which I've never experienced in practice but have heard rumours about:

Say you've paid up front, and just before your lesson a punter walks in off the street waving £50 notes and wanting a "trial lesson". Does the school:

(1) tell the punter to piss off, losing this extra money, and give you your scheduled lesson

or:

(2) cancel your lesson, on the grounds that you've already paid, take the additional money from the punter, and give the punter your aircraft and your instructor

?

[WishesToFly]

£50 for a trial lesson, where? @ Southend they want £95 for half hour!

Id rather pay £50! That's for sure!

Any tips for getting the price down, or offer £50 to do a circuit?

Cheers, keep the excellent comments coming!

Alex