Airmanship - a consideration
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Airmanship - a consideration
Good afternoon aviators!
I wonder if I might use your forum to highlight what seems to be an ongoing issue with airmanship?
This afternoon, while working an Airshow at Elvington in Yorkshire, and having issued the following NOTAM:
Q) EGTT/QWALW/IV/M/W/000/050/5355N00058W003
B) FROM: 10/07/31 11:30C) TO: 10/08/01 14:00
E) AIR DISPLAY/AEROBATICS ACTIVITY WI 3NM 5355N 00058W
(ELVINGTON AD, YORKSHIRE)
10-07-0747/AS 2
LOWER: SFC
UPPER: 5000FT AMSL
SCHEDULE: 1130-1400
We still had a joker appear in the overhead during the Harvard display and proceed to fly up and down the display line, at a height well below 5000ft and conduct his own aerobatics! Now I know this is class G airspace, but whatever happened to airmanship?!
Do others find that, especially in areas of high traffic density such as the area around York, it is exasperating the amount of GA aviators that either don't read NOTAMs, or blatantly arrive over an event to add their own "act"?
Being a GA pilot myself, as well as holding a DA and being involved in displays on the ground, I am staggered that such attitude to airmanship still exists and that no-one at clubs, or those conducting bi-annual checks are picking up pilots for such blatant poor airmanship. When I learnt to fly, airmanship was an assessed part of the syllabus I seem to remember! I know the Red Arrows have also been blighted with this over the years, and yet pilots still barrel into their RA(T)s!
As a parting shot, if anyone is flying in the Elvington, Breighton, Church Fenton area tomorrow please give us a call on York Radio 119.625 and we can pass traffic information to you. We have a discrete display frequency for the display a/c, so you won't be bothering anyone by calling but we would ask that you respect the 3nm and 5000ft mentioned in the NOTAM and remain clear by at least that. Display a/c may also be holding overhead Acaster Malbis and VFR to the south of Elvington.
Happy and safe flying!
Max
PS The observant amongst you may note that a similar thread has been posted on another forum outside PPRuNe, however I feel this deserves discussion with as wide an audience as possible as the problem doesn't seem to be getting any better!
I wonder if I might use your forum to highlight what seems to be an ongoing issue with airmanship?
This afternoon, while working an Airshow at Elvington in Yorkshire, and having issued the following NOTAM:
Q) EGTT/QWALW/IV/M/W/000/050/5355N00058W003
B) FROM: 10/07/31 11:30C) TO: 10/08/01 14:00
E) AIR DISPLAY/AEROBATICS ACTIVITY WI 3NM 5355N 00058W
(ELVINGTON AD, YORKSHIRE)
10-07-0747/AS 2
LOWER: SFC
UPPER: 5000FT AMSL
SCHEDULE: 1130-1400
We still had a joker appear in the overhead during the Harvard display and proceed to fly up and down the display line, at a height well below 5000ft and conduct his own aerobatics! Now I know this is class G airspace, but whatever happened to airmanship?!
Do others find that, especially in areas of high traffic density such as the area around York, it is exasperating the amount of GA aviators that either don't read NOTAMs, or blatantly arrive over an event to add their own "act"?
Being a GA pilot myself, as well as holding a DA and being involved in displays on the ground, I am staggered that such attitude to airmanship still exists and that no-one at clubs, or those conducting bi-annual checks are picking up pilots for such blatant poor airmanship. When I learnt to fly, airmanship was an assessed part of the syllabus I seem to remember! I know the Red Arrows have also been blighted with this over the years, and yet pilots still barrel into their RA(T)s!
As a parting shot, if anyone is flying in the Elvington, Breighton, Church Fenton area tomorrow please give us a call on York Radio 119.625 and we can pass traffic information to you. We have a discrete display frequency for the display a/c, so you won't be bothering anyone by calling but we would ask that you respect the 3nm and 5000ft mentioned in the NOTAM and remain clear by at least that. Display a/c may also be holding overhead Acaster Malbis and VFR to the south of Elvington.
Happy and safe flying!
Max
PS The observant amongst you may note that a similar thread has been posted on another forum outside PPRuNe, however I feel this deserves discussion with as wide an audience as possible as the problem doesn't seem to be getting any better!
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Many or most UK PPLs don't read notams. Many don't use the internet. Look at the pilot age demographic data (back pages of FTN) - it is obvious.
There is a huge pilot community out there which has never 'got weather' and never 'got notams'. I know a fair few of them myself. They fly out of strips, mostly. No transponders, of course.
And your show was in Class G. Class G is Class G...
Of course pilots should read the notams... the real Q is: do you want to run adult education classes on how to use a PC, and how to get an internet connection when away from home?
What's basically happened is that over the past decade, flying has caught up with the pilot community, and it will take many years to sort out.
There is a huge pilot community out there which has never 'got weather' and never 'got notams'. I know a fair few of them myself. They fly out of strips, mostly. No transponders, of course.
And your show was in Class G. Class G is Class G...
Of course pilots should read the notams... the real Q is: do you want to run adult education classes on how to use a PC, and how to get an internet connection when away from home?
What's basically happened is that over the past decade, flying has caught up with the pilot community, and it will take many years to sort out.
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IO540
Well,how arrogant can you get,well knowing you ,probably a lot more.
I am 67,have been using the internet for around 14 yrs,using PC's before that.
Many of my pals exceed even my age,and maybe unbelievably for you,can use the internet.
Notams are available and used by many,especially now there are user friendly sites.
You will always get the odd pratt,usually young,cocky and inexperienced in procedures.
But some of the cocky ones are a lot older
Lister-OAP and proud of it.
I am 67,have been using the internet for around 14 yrs,using PC's before that.
Many of my pals exceed even my age,and maybe unbelievably for you,can use the internet.
Notams are available and used by many,especially now there are user friendly sites.
You will always get the odd pratt,usually young,cocky and inexperienced in procedures.
But some of the cocky ones are a lot older
Lister-OAP and proud of it.
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Lister, calm down. I am 53 and getting older 
Almost old enough to get a bus pass.
Do you actually dispute my comment on pilots not using the internet, etc? If so, please back it up.
Almost old enough to get a bus pass.Do you actually dispute my comment on pilots not using the internet, etc? If so, please back it up.
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Lister
I am afraid I think you are wrong.
I posted a comment on the darker side about an occasion recently I went to Gloucester. Farnborough had a temp class A which I picked up before going and had at least been published the previous evening. You should have heard the number of pilots who didnt know - it was quite dreadful. I reckon in the 15 minutes I must have heard at least a dozen pilots being told they had infringed. It is not by any means the first time.
Next time there is a temp class A go fly around the area or listen up on the ground and you will be horrified. Of course there are plenty who read the NOTAMs and plenty who dont.
Sorry on reflection I dont mean you are wrong because I think your comment was more directed at oldies being computer illiterate - some clearly are, some cant be bothered and some arent.
I am afraid I think you are wrong.
I posted a comment on the darker side about an occasion recently I went to Gloucester. Farnborough had a temp class A which I picked up before going and had at least been published the previous evening. You should have heard the number of pilots who didnt know - it was quite dreadful. I reckon in the 15 minutes I must have heard at least a dozen pilots being told they had infringed. It is not by any means the first time.
Next time there is a temp class A go fly around the area or listen up on the ground and you will be horrified. Of course there are plenty who read the NOTAMs and plenty who dont.
Sorry on reflection I dont mean you are wrong because I think your comment was more directed at oldies being computer illiterate - some clearly are, some cant be bothered and some arent.
IO540, there certainly are lots of pilots just doing their thing, without never consulting neither weather nor notam's nor the holy virgin neither whatever. But I have never observed such behaviour to have any relation to age or internet capacities, to these eyes it seems more related to temperament and education. Not to mention budget.
And both excess of temperament and lack of education are more common among youngsters. Large budgets do seem to come with age, though.
The clown of the opening message seems to have suffered from an excess of temperament. No excuse, certainly, I heartily agree with O/P. But there is NO illustrated relation neither with age nor with internet currency. At the contrary, without internet information said clown might never have known about the event and gone blow his whistle elsewhere.
And both excess of temperament and lack of education are more common among youngsters. Large budgets do seem to come with age, though.
The clown of the opening message seems to have suffered from an excess of temperament. No excuse, certainly, I heartily agree with O/P. But there is NO illustrated relation neither with age nor with internet currency. At the contrary, without internet information said clown might never have known about the event and gone blow his whistle elsewhere.
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From pilots I know personally (face to face) there is a very strong correlation between those who do not use the internet, and their age.
They don't need to be much older than me, either. I happen to have been in electronics design since day 1 so I was always "in" this game, but a chap of say 60 who has been insulated from it by doing a job which does not involve email etc communication will not necessarily be up to speed.
This lack of IT literacy is seen in every walk of life and is a real issue for employers, because so many jobs today require the use of email, at least. It is really quite sad sometimes; I had one temp-agency woman of about 60 trying to feed a credit card into a fax machine, to authorise the card. It is unfortunate that working practices (specifically, the use of IT methods) have changed so much faster than many people have been able to cope with.
This incidentally is IMHO who there is so much apparent adult illiteracy around. There has probably not been an actual increase, but a lot of employees who used to do purely manual jobs have been pushed into jobs where they have to do email, etc, and they end up looking ridiculous because they can't write.
And of course about 100% of those who don't use the internet won't be getting notams, because one cannot get notams (practically) otherwise.
Obviously anybody on pprune.org will be on the internet, and some are likely to be offended by this discussion.
They don't need to be much older than me, either. I happen to have been in electronics design since day 1 so I was always "in" this game, but a chap of say 60 who has been insulated from it by doing a job which does not involve email etc communication will not necessarily be up to speed.
This lack of IT literacy is seen in every walk of life and is a real issue for employers, because so many jobs today require the use of email, at least. It is really quite sad sometimes; I had one temp-agency woman of about 60 trying to feed a credit card into a fax machine, to authorise the card. It is unfortunate that working practices (specifically, the use of IT methods) have changed so much faster than many people have been able to cope with.
This incidentally is IMHO who there is so much apparent adult illiteracy around. There has probably not been an actual increase, but a lot of employees who used to do purely manual jobs have been pushed into jobs where they have to do email, etc, and they end up looking ridiculous because they can't write.
And of course about 100% of those who don't use the internet won't be getting notams, because one cannot get notams (practically) otherwise.
Obviously anybody on pprune.org will be on the internet, and some are likely to be offended by this discussion.
IO540, of course I am only a youngster myself, but could you please illustrate how anyone managed to consult notam's before the days of internet? Are those methods still available today?
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but could you please illustrate how anyone managed to consult notam's before the days of internet? Are those methods still available today?
In my PPL days (2000/01) the instructor got a local briefing by fax and pinned it on the wall. Of course nobody present flew past the nearest crease on the chart... so this was OK. Those who might have been going places were not around because most schools don't like experienced PPLs hanging around, upsetting the instructors
In 2000/01 a pilot going places probably just got away with it... There used to be phone numbers which you could call for a briefing, but I have never met anybody who used to call them. And realistically there are only about 50-100 TRAs around the UK each year, mostly airshows, and the chance of a random pilot busting one is quite small, and this is probably how it "worked" all those years. Everything which is not an RA is fair game for a bust and nothing will be done about it because no law was broken.
Then a number of things changed.
(1) After 9/11, The French set up the prohibited areas around their power stations. I busted one of those in 2003, but narrowly escaped major hassle a) because I did not land in France and b) because the ais.org.uk database was crap, and c) because the French IGN charts did not show them.
(2) UK ATC set up the ais.org.uk notam database and this became everybody's source for going places. You could do a Narrow Route Briefing which remains to this day, and works fine. This became usable c. 2003.
(3) Because of the notam database, everybody and their dog who was authorised to generate notams (which was, and remains, everybody and their dog, illiterate or otherwise, but always awfully self important, especially if in the military) started generating masses of notams, mostly irrelevant and mostly just a pollution of the database... but you have to read through this garbage when you get the briefing. I bet the notam volume has gone up 10x to100x between 2000 and 2010, while the number of actually meaningful notams has remained the same.
Note to the pilot who thought it would be a good idea to practice aeros at Elvington this afternoon, right in the middle of the Wings and Wheels air display.
Tomorrow, Sunday. August 1st, is day two of the event.
(You were crap, by the way).
Tomorrow, Sunday. August 1st, is day two of the event.
(You were crap, by the way).
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Valid points regarding the age demographics of pilot's and actually bothering to do any kind of pre-flight, including checking NOTAMs. What strikes my as shocking about the post is the fact that said 'tool' seemed to be aware of what was going on - and proceeded to act the tit anyway. The issue of checking NOTAMs and their (un)accessibility has been well documented recently but this is a case of non-existent airmanship, a complete lack of respect for the safety of affected aircraft/crew and a lack of consideration to those trying to watch the show (which I assume are families with kids over a summer weekend?) No excuse, this guy needs to have his licence revoked for such idiotic behavior IMHO.
Cheers
Ryan - 26 and getting younger!!
Cheers
Ryan - 26 and getting younger!!
@IO540: with all respect, I keep to my point of view: a responsible pilot will do a proper pre-flight and that's all. Point à la ligne.
If tomorrow meteo info is only available through smoke signals, any responsible pilot will learn to read those. I just hope these words will not bring bad inspiration...
I am willing to believe there was less sense of responsability in earlier days, when traffic was much less dense, and those who grew up in that mentality are unlikely to change it overnight. But that has nothing to do with internet litteracy.
BTW every a/d I have visited round here has a PC with internet access available to pilots, and there's generally someone around to help if required. Lack of internet ability is really not a proper excuse!
And I do insist dangerous or inconsiderate airmanship is more often seen from not-so-old people with big budgets and great planes than from humble gaffers. The one time I observed it - an antique biplane showing his acrobatics right through a cloud of descending parajumpers - the pilot was younger than myself, and a manager of a bizjet operation. Not an internet illitterate, I should think, neither unversed in air law, or so one should hope.
But I am really surprised at your point 3: as I read your words, any nitwit of a n___y could post a notam declaring a TRA around his place for next Sunday's family bbq - surely such postings must be validated by any kind of authority before being published? Really the UK must be a very different place!
If tomorrow meteo info is only available through smoke signals, any responsible pilot will learn to read those. I just hope these words will not bring bad inspiration...
I am willing to believe there was less sense of responsability in earlier days, when traffic was much less dense, and those who grew up in that mentality are unlikely to change it overnight. But that has nothing to do with internet litteracy.
BTW every a/d I have visited round here has a PC with internet access available to pilots, and there's generally someone around to help if required. Lack of internet ability is really not a proper excuse!
And I do insist dangerous or inconsiderate airmanship is more often seen from not-so-old people with big budgets and great planes than from humble gaffers. The one time I observed it - an antique biplane showing his acrobatics right through a cloud of descending parajumpers - the pilot was younger than myself, and a manager of a bizjet operation. Not an internet illitterate, I should think, neither unversed in air law, or so one should hope.
But I am really surprised at your point 3: as I read your words, any nitwit of a n___y could post a notam declaring a TRA around his place for next Sunday's family bbq - surely such postings must be validated by any kind of authority before being published? Really the UK must be a very different place!
But I am really surprised at your point 3: as I read your words, any nitwit of a n___y could post a notam declaring a TRA around his place for next Sunday's family bbq - surely such postings must be validated by any kind of authority before being published? Really the UK must be a very different place!
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On numerous occasions last week I was called at Scottish Information by various aircraft saying they could not establish comms with Carlisle ATC on 123.6........on every occasion I suggested to these folk that if they read their notams all would have been revealed.........Carlisle ATC last week were short staffed and had been operating revised hours!!!!
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Freda
A ray of common sense,there is so much jumble that very few could be expected to unravel official Notams.
Much better to see one of the " unofficial sites".
But no one of my age would know how to do it.
Lister
Old and not so wise
Gosh,how am I doing this internet stuff?
Much better to see one of the " unofficial sites".
But no one of my age would know how to do it.
Lister
Old and not so wise
Gosh,how am I doing this internet stuff
?
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how anyone managed to consult notam's before the days of internet?
So, not easy to consult in advance, you might turn up at the airport to find that you couldn't make the planned flight.
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I agree that a lot of NOTAMS should never be accepted. I agree that the official promulgation of NOTAMS leaves much to be desired.
However the reality is everyone has the right to our airspace. This sometimes means that a minority will use our airspace for their special purpose - for example aerobatic competitions. In addition it also means there are occasions (security, hazards etc) when the airspace should be restricted. I think we all recognise those needs.
For me it is wholly irresponsible for us not to pre-flight NOTAMS. Moreover I dont buy that it is difficult. There are numerous sources of graphical NOTAMS that really do provide all you need and numerous ways of accessing these.
It takes me literally a few minutes to self brief before a flight. I am not going to claim I do so before absolutely every flight but I do for the very vast majority.
Quite simply I think those that dont, whatever their age are negligent.
When I started flying, some what before some of the posters so far, things were different, but that is irrelevant. Times gone bye and we could do T and Gs at Gatwick. Sadly, perhaps, the world has moved on.
However the reality is everyone has the right to our airspace. This sometimes means that a minority will use our airspace for their special purpose - for example aerobatic competitions. In addition it also means there are occasions (security, hazards etc) when the airspace should be restricted. I think we all recognise those needs.
For me it is wholly irresponsible for us not to pre-flight NOTAMS. Moreover I dont buy that it is difficult. There are numerous sources of graphical NOTAMS that really do provide all you need and numerous ways of accessing these.
It takes me literally a few minutes to self brief before a flight. I am not going to claim I do so before absolutely every flight but I do for the very vast majority.
Quite simply I think those that dont, whatever their age are negligent.
When I started flying, some what before some of the posters so far, things were different, but that is irrelevant. Times gone bye and we could do T and Gs at Gatwick. Sadly, perhaps, the world has moved on.
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If tomorrow meteo info is only available through smoke signals, any responsible pilot will learn to read those. I just hope these words will not bring bad inspiration...
But often it doesn't matter. If you fly for 30nm then you can get a good enough picture by looking out of the window.
This is how I think it used to work. Speaking to some friends of mine confirms this. One 2000hr+ pilot says he cannot read tafs or metars. He flies at low levels mostly. He is a great bloke and I can see how he gets away with it, along with many others. For most short-ish flights you don't need a weather briefing; it is "VFR" after all
The problem is Notams... there is no way to avoid those, and one day it will bite you.
I am willing to believe there was less sense of responsability in earlier days, when traffic was much less dense, and those who grew up in that mentality are unlikely to change it overnight. But that has nothing to do with internet litteracy.
I think that the only notam that is really going to get you into trouble is an RA or temporary Class A (usually the Royal Family going somewhere) but if you go back say 20 years, not many had transponders so were much harder to track afterwards
BTW every a/d I have visited round here has a PC with internet access available to pilots, and there's generally someone around to help if required. Lack of internet ability is really not a proper excuse!
They arrived at the airport by some magic or other and were put up on the notice board each morning, for you to read before take-off.
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The clown of the opening message seems to have suffered from an excess of temperament.
Max, you have my sympathy. The BAeA competition held at Elvington has also been dogged by similar idiots, one of whom, a twit in a Robin from Sherburn in Elmet did exactly the same thing, Unfortunately for him he was tracked by Church Fenton Radar who just happened to be working that Saturday and as we had also got his registration there was no way he could deny it. I'm not sure what happened on his return to Sherburn but I'm pretty sure it was probably along the lines of tea and biccies with the CFI - without the tea and definitely without the biccies. I posted something similar earlier this year - probably around the beginning of May when we had had several intruders in the competition box. What amazes me is the number of people who attempt to defend the perpetrators by complaining that NOTAMs are too difficult to obtain and/or read.
Please note - I am NOT a member of the BAeA, I am simply someone who enjoys going to help out at some of their competitions.
Well, sorry, please put it down to my being shocked at the irresponsible behaviour of one pilot. I certainly did not want to offend anyone. But I do be aware that in this country it has become virtually impossible - except for the military - to organise any aviation event including aerobatics, following an incident where another pilot killed himself AND several spectators through disrespecting given rules.
On re-perusal, this discussion seems to have slipped into flight preparation, the difficulties of properly consulting published notams, and - for myself - the surprising differences between one country and one other.
The original message was about a pilot who most likely knew very well what was happening then and there - but decided to do his own thing nevertheless. Certainly my instructor would have termed that much worse than "seeming to suffer from an excess of temperament" but I'll not cite his vocabulary - it wouldn't bear translation, anyway.
On re-perusal, this discussion seems to have slipped into flight preparation, the difficulties of properly consulting published notams, and - for myself - the surprising differences between one country and one other.
The original message was about a pilot who most likely knew very well what was happening then and there - but decided to do his own thing nevertheless. Certainly my instructor would have termed that much worse than "seeming to suffer from an excess of temperament" but I'll not cite his vocabulary - it wouldn't bear translation, anyway.