Flying from the R/H seat.
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Flying from the R/H seat.
Hi to All Pprune members.
I belong to a syndicate that operates a PA28.
We recently had a group meeting where one of our group members "expressed" an interest in flying the A/C from the R/H seat (P1) and carrying a "non flying person" in the L/H seat as a passenger. (We believe the person has already be doing this without the group knowing)
The group member does NOT has an instructor rating CAA or FAA.
Where can I find the legal requirements concerning weither this is a breach of any CAA rules.
Thanks in advance for any replys.
Mutley7
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I belong to a syndicate that operates a PA28.
We recently had a group meeting where one of our group members "expressed" an interest in flying the A/C from the R/H seat (P1) and carrying a "non flying person" in the L/H seat as a passenger. (We believe the person has already be doing this without the group knowing)
The group member does NOT has an instructor rating CAA or FAA.
Where can I find the legal requirements concerning weither this is a breach of any CAA rules.
Thanks in advance for any replys.
Mutley7
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Hi,I doubt if you will find anything to stop this person doing this,as far as I am aware the only requirement is that the right hand seat is occupied,though one might assume by a compentent person i.e with eyes.Could a person with no flying experience,someone on their lesson be deemed a compentent person!!I doubt it.Helicopters are flown from the right hand seat!.I see no problem with the person doing this presuming he/she is compentent in that seat,and yes there is a difference,I think the CAA take the view that the a/c should be flown from the left unless it can be deemed that the pilot the handling pilot is safer in the r/h seat.As some one who has spent almost 10.000 hrs instructing in either the right.h or rear seat of A/C I almos always sit my pax in the left or front seat as I consider its the safest option.But this is only my opinion.someone like Gengis or BEagle is poss a better bet. bye for now
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Sorry about the spelling in the last and of course its the left hand seat of a fixed wing that should be occupied,though on checking this is only for take off and landing just make sure said pilot is competent and your insurance dosent have any strange clauses.. bye
The Original Whirly
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I remember reading an AAIB report of an accident involving two pilots, and it said it hadn't been clear who was the handling pilot. It stated specifically that there was no rule saying the handling pilot had to be in the left hand seat, although that was more usual. So there shouldn't be a problem.
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Seems to me Groups often have designated Group check pilots who are competent in the right seat; however the left seater would at least be a PPL.
Seems to me also in some types the positioning of the controls, instruments makes little differences whether the aircraft is flown from the right or left seat and even for that matter whether the left seat is occupied.
However, on a PA28 I seem to remember for example the tank selector is bottom left on the side panel. That would present a significant problem solo right. It might also present a problem explaining to an unqualified passenger should a tank change be required in an emergency – and by the way don’t get the selector “stuck” between tanks or select off – no matter how good your pre-flight brief. I suppose on the other hand the pilot might do a better job of opening the door!
Seems to me whatever, it is a matter of accessing the problems of taking complete command from the right seat should your passenger freeze at just the wrong moment and the question must then me just how wise your decision was given the passenger was not a qualified pilot and the right seater had presumably not had the formal training to deal with a recalcitrant “student / passenger”.
Seems to me also in some types the positioning of the controls, instruments makes little differences whether the aircraft is flown from the right or left seat and even for that matter whether the left seat is occupied.
However, on a PA28 I seem to remember for example the tank selector is bottom left on the side panel. That would present a significant problem solo right. It might also present a problem explaining to an unqualified passenger should a tank change be required in an emergency – and by the way don’t get the selector “stuck” between tanks or select off – no matter how good your pre-flight brief. I suppose on the other hand the pilot might do a better job of opening the door!
Seems to me whatever, it is a matter of accessing the problems of taking complete command from the right seat should your passenger freeze at just the wrong moment and the question must then me just how wise your decision was given the passenger was not a qualified pilot and the right seater had presumably not had the formal training to deal with a recalcitrant “student / passenger”.
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An excellent comment made by "Fuji" if I may say so.
Furthermore, I have flown a "28" from the
right-seat on a couple of occasions now (in company with another Pilot I hasten to add) and whilst I had an altimeter on my side, it was very difficult to get an accurate assessment of both the D.I. and A.S.I. from the angle I was sat at. Whilst I am not aware of any legal requirements that prevent pax's sitting in the left seat, it's certainly not something I would permit for the reasons shared and noted above. <img src="eek.gif" border="0">
Kind regards
C.N.
[ 12 January 2002: Message edited by: Captain Numpty ]
[ 12 January 2002: Message edited by: Captain Numpty ]</p>
Furthermore, I have flown a "28" from the
right-seat on a couple of occasions now (in company with another Pilot I hasten to add) and whilst I had an altimeter on my side, it was very difficult to get an accurate assessment of both the D.I. and A.S.I. from the angle I was sat at. Whilst I am not aware of any legal requirements that prevent pax's sitting in the left seat, it's certainly not something I would permit for the reasons shared and noted above. <img src="eek.gif" border="0">
Kind regards
C.N.
[ 12 January 2002: Message edited by: Captain Numpty ]
[ 12 January 2002: Message edited by: Captain Numpty ]</p>
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I fly for a living but I also have my own single cessna for weekend flying and i DONT have an instructors rating. My cessna is on the N reg where I've been told there are no left/right seat requirements for private ops providing the aircraft has dual controls (my mate who owns a flying school asked the FAA specifically). So now I put people who want to look out the window in the RH seat but if they express an interest in flying I let them sit in the LH seat.
I can see how it would be an issue for a pilot with 50 or 80 hours to swap, but to be honest, I found it took me a couple of trips to get used to the RH seat and I don't even think about it anymore.
My advice is, if the CAA allow it and the pilot is happy he has done a few circuits in the r/h seat then there's no problem. I wouldn't get all anal about not being able to see instruments properly. your supposed to be looking out the window. don't look for complications where they don't exist!!
I can see how it would be an issue for a pilot with 50 or 80 hours to swap, but to be honest, I found it took me a couple of trips to get used to the RH seat and I don't even think about it anymore.
My advice is, if the CAA allow it and the pilot is happy he has done a few circuits in the r/h seat then there's no problem. I wouldn't get all anal about not being able to see instruments properly. your supposed to be looking out the window. don't look for complications where they don't exist!!
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Of relevance was an accident on (I think) a PA28 a little while back where it spun in on the climbout (Bournemouth I think). Part of the findings suggested there may have been difficulty in the instructor accurately assesing airspeed from the RHS. Although he was PA28 experienced, I believe he was relatively inexperienced on that particular variant.
"Trust Me"
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I flew ONE cct in my Robin in the right hand seat -felt very peculiar, not so much because of the parallax on the instruments, but having my LEFT hand on the throttle and RIGHT hand on the stick, totally opposite to the way I fly from the left hand seat. Took A LOT of concentration, but interesting exercise. Why? Coz the new guy in the left hand seat was making real poo of his ccts!!
I did look into this -the only thing that stops non-shareholders in my plane flying from the left is a clause in the agreement that a shareholder must be in the left hand seat....no CAA ruling apparently.
DOC
I did look into this -the only thing that stops non-shareholders in my plane flying from the left is a clause in the agreement that a shareholder must be in the left hand seat....no CAA ruling apparently.
DOC
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Well here's another viewpoint.
With about 400 hrs on Yaks (and Chipmunk before that) throttle on left and stick in right is to me the most natural way. Most older and mil-type aircraft are configured this way. Right handed people will have more dexterity in that hand and it seems to make more sense to have it on the control column.
Flew a Bulldog from the LH seat recently and that did feel strange - I'd certainly prefer to occupy the RH seat.
Why was the LH seat chosen as the command seat in the first place? I seem to remember that in rotary wing, RH is command seat because that is the side of the advancing blade which produces more lift and in smaller, earlier machines it made more sense to put the weight on that side.
Cheers
Garry
With about 400 hrs on Yaks (and Chipmunk before that) throttle on left and stick in right is to me the most natural way. Most older and mil-type aircraft are configured this way. Right handed people will have more dexterity in that hand and it seems to make more sense to have it on the control column.
Flew a Bulldog from the LH seat recently and that did feel strange - I'd certainly prefer to occupy the RH seat.
Why was the LH seat chosen as the command seat in the first place? I seem to remember that in rotary wing, RH is command seat because that is the side of the advancing blade which produces more lift and in smaller, earlier machines it made more sense to put the weight on that side.
Cheers
Garry
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DOC400, funny you should bring that up, I know exactly what you mean regarding switching hands for throttle/stick. When I started flying Robins over here in France I continued to use my left hand for the stick and right hand for throttle as I had done in Cessnas/Pipers back in the UK. I dont use the throttle on the RH side when when I fly (always in the left seat so far), but a little while ago I decided to try switching hands for the duration of a flight – I found I just couldnt do it!! After 10 minutes I had gone back to right hand throttle/left hand stick without thinking, I guess to me it was ‘Natural’ that way in that aeroplane.
I remember reading an article in pilot mag about a military guy in a light plane who when too low on an approach, accidentally pulled back the throttle and pushed foreward the stick instead of the other way about because his hands were switched from what he was used to. The idea of inadvertantly doing this scares the hell out of me!!
Any instructors here care to comment on the problems of flying ‘the other way around’?
SD..
I remember reading an article in pilot mag about a military guy in a light plane who when too low on an approach, accidentally pulled back the throttle and pushed foreward the stick instead of the other way about because his hands were switched from what he was used to. The idea of inadvertantly doing this scares the hell out of me!!
Any instructors here care to comment on the problems of flying ‘the other way around’?
SD..
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Aerostar,I know exactly what you mean regarding the RH on stick comments,one of the few "Civil" aircraft that is flown from the RH Seat is the SIAI Marchetti which was used by several Military forces for Initial training(Including the IAC 
)the pupil can then advance onto fixed or rotary without having to undo the enviroment which has now become "Natural" to them.
Another point worth noting is that many Light aircraft are only fitted with brakes in the p1 position <img src="redface.gif" border="0"> <img src="redface.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0">
Neg G
)the pupil can then advance onto fixed or rotary without having to undo the enviroment which has now become "Natural" to them.Another point worth noting is that many Light aircraft are only fitted with brakes in the p1 position <img src="redface.gif" border="0"> <img src="redface.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0">
Neg G
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The Grob 115E which is civilian registered but operated for the R.A.F. is configured for the handling pilot to be in the R.H.seat. This gives him (or her) an easy conversion to the Tucano.
Mike W
Mike W
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The ANO is quite clear on this. The pilot can occupy any seat provided he can reach all the controls.
In the PA28 you cannot reach the fuel selector from the right hand seat. Having another pilot there - fine. I often fly the '28 I have a share in from the right hand seat if my partner (flying LHS) isn't happy about a short field approach say. However - that means there is still a pilot in the LHS who can call speeds and make any other necessary comments from reading the instruments. The pilot RHS / Passenger not qualified LHS is sheer stupidity - instructor qualified is a different matter.
If you let this person do this - you are heading for a repair bill!
CM
In the PA28 you cannot reach the fuel selector from the right hand seat. Having another pilot there - fine. I often fly the '28 I have a share in from the right hand seat if my partner (flying LHS) isn't happy about a short field approach say. However - that means there is still a pilot in the LHS who can call speeds and make any other necessary comments from reading the instruments. The pilot RHS / Passenger not qualified LHS is sheer stupidity - instructor qualified is a different matter.
If you let this person do this - you are heading for a repair bill!
CM
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Strange that people should mention difficulties in swapping hands. I have absolutely no problems switching between PA28 (throttle on right) and PA18 (throttle on left). I also have no problem in a left-hand-drive car with automatic transmission. But last week I drove a left-hand-drive car with a manual transmission for the first time, and found it a bit tricky for the first few minutes (turned the lights off instead of changing gear once!)
I remember a "Members Day" at White Waltham back in 2000 where the instructors did a formation flight in the club aircraft. My instructor flew a PA28. He said he felt more comfortable flying from the right seat, because most of his PA28 hours were from the right seat - and he took another student with him to reach the fuel selector. I don't know if this is mandatory, but it makes sense. Having said that, what about a trial lesson? The instructor can't reach the fuel selector, and the student pilot probably hasn't had any training in using it (I wasn't shown the fuel selector until my second lesson)... Does the fact that the occupier of the right seat is an instructor make any difference? I don't see why an instructor is better qualified to reach across a passenger's lap in an emergency situation than any other pilot with a similar level of experience...
FFF
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I remember a "Members Day" at White Waltham back in 2000 where the instructors did a formation flight in the club aircraft. My instructor flew a PA28. He said he felt more comfortable flying from the right seat, because most of his PA28 hours were from the right seat - and he took another student with him to reach the fuel selector. I don't know if this is mandatory, but it makes sense. Having said that, what about a trial lesson? The instructor can't reach the fuel selector, and the student pilot probably hasn't had any training in using it (I wasn't shown the fuel selector until my second lesson)... Does the fact that the occupier of the right seat is an instructor make any difference? I don't see why an instructor is better qualified to reach across a passenger's lap in an emergency situation than any other pilot with a similar level of experience...
FFF
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I think this is really a matter of choice. Personally I have spent so much time flying in the RHS that sitting in the LHS feels quite strange!
From a practical viewpoint instructors are taught fairly early to consider the 'parallax' problems. Regarding reaching the fuel cock in a PA28 I do not find this a problem (although I am quite tall I suppose).
If you feel safe and in control in the RHS then it is up to you (insurance clauses permitting).
Just a thought from the 'RHS'
JWF :
From a practical viewpoint instructors are taught fairly early to consider the 'parallax' problems. Regarding reaching the fuel cock in a PA28 I do not find this a problem (although I am quite tall I suppose).
If you feel safe and in control in the RHS then it is up to you (insurance clauses permitting).
Just a thought from the 'RHS'
JWF
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I fly a Cessna 172 from LHS, and the Grob Tutor from the RHS, and I find it doesn't make any difference. It would only be hard if I wasn't sitting on the side designed for the P1/Student (eg if the gauges were on the other side and therefore hard to read).
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SKYDRILLER
Flying the Robin LH on stick and RH on throttle also means that the right hand easily can drop to the carb heat, fuel pump, trimmer and puts the radio stack and nav aids just an arms length away, although for those that don't know, there is also a throttle on the left of the instrument panel. Handy for putting 'phones on when parked!!
Come to think on it, flying is all that my left hand does (and I'm right handed).
DOC
Flying the Robin LH on stick and RH on throttle also means that the right hand easily can drop to the carb heat, fuel pump, trimmer and puts the radio stack and nav aids just an arms length away, although for those that don't know, there is also a throttle on the left of the instrument panel. Handy for putting 'phones on when parked!!
Come to think on it, flying is all that my left hand does (and I'm right handed).
DOC
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I think most people seem to agree that swapping seats is not a problem. Now that I think of it, I actually fly at work as an F/O RHS and then for pleasure in my cessan in LHS and then jump into RHS in my cessna for the odd 'intro' flight for friends. As I said I have no instructors rating and don't want one.
If there is something specific about an aircraft, like the PA fuel selector issue, then that needs to be evaluated. But on the whole it is probably necessary development of a pilot to be able to fly a range of aircraft from various positions. Even senior airline pilots (training captains) regularly swap seats depending on wether the art avaluating a Capt of F/O.
However, I would say again, be warey of a 50 hour PPL who wants to jump into the RHS to impress the birds. This person probably needs a little time to become comfortable with his/her machine from the side in which they trained first.
By the way....good point from the person who mentioned that schools offer demo/intro flights everyday with an instructor in the RHS and a .05 hour student in the RHS.
I find there are a lot of people in aviation who create problems that don't really exist. Just be legal and sensible.
If there is something specific about an aircraft, like the PA fuel selector issue, then that needs to be evaluated. But on the whole it is probably necessary development of a pilot to be able to fly a range of aircraft from various positions. Even senior airline pilots (training captains) regularly swap seats depending on wether the art avaluating a Capt of F/O.
However, I would say again, be warey of a 50 hour PPL who wants to jump into the RHS to impress the birds. This person probably needs a little time to become comfortable with his/her machine from the side in which they trained first.
By the way....good point from the person who mentioned that schools offer demo/intro flights everyday with an instructor in the RHS and a .05 hour student in the RHS.
I find there are a lot of people in aviation who create problems that don't really exist. Just be legal and sensible.