Stuck in the circuit

[A and C]

The bottom line is you need an instructor change, some students progress levels out with the same instructor, the instrctor may be doing nothing wrong but he may be sending you signals that you are not aware of.

A change of instructor will cure this.

If the instructor change fails to work then the CFI needs to look at your records from day one to see if something in the pre CCT phase has been missed or rushed.

[IO540]

I think circuit banging is exhausting and due to the brain overload and the student being soaked in sweat it does not achieve very much.

Even in the early stages, it is nice to actually go somewhere, to remind the student that flying isn't just damned hard work.

[119.35]

IO540

Have to say IO540 struck a chord with me and my ppl training!

I wouldn't say that I considered myself stuck in the circuit at the time, but I had been giving it a good bashing for a few lessons and wasn't making any real progress.

It was starting to become a bit fustrating and I wasn't looking forward to my lessons as much as I knew what was in store. My instructor recognised this and my next lesson was out of the circuit (something like general handling) and it was like a breath of fresh air.

The very next lesson was back in the circuit but for some inexplicable reason, it all just fell into place. Before I knew it my instructor got out and sent me off solo!

Looking back, I think the pressure and frustration had been building for some time. Getting out of the circuit seemed to release this pressure and worked miracles for me.

I was very fortunate to have an excellent and experienced instructor.

[Big Pistons Forever]

My experience as an instructor is if ia student is not progessing in the circuit than the problem is weak fundamental flying skills. Poor attitude control is the usual problem manifested in the nose contunually nodding up and down on final with the airspeed never stabilized on the proper value. This is often combined with way too much power on final and therefore execessive airspeed into the flare. When the power is chopped it all goes to hell.

My 02 cents. If your circuits are not getting better than go to the practice area. I think this is even more important for students who do not fly regularly
as skill fade on the fundamentals will set in. It is hugely more efficent to fly regularly when taking lessons , so much so I recommend you save up enough money to get at least the first half of the course done before starting your PPL lessons.

[Juno78]

So, just to clarify, is 16 hours generally too long to have been doing circuits and not be ready to solo? Most of the replies seem to think that there is a problem so I assume that's the general consensus?

[stevelup]

Everyone is different - but it does seem quite a lot. Mine went like this:-

7:10 of general handling, then 9:40 hrs of circuits before first solo.

I did fly every single weekend though - only missed three lessons over a ten month period. I'm now at 53:30 and doing my skills test next weekend.

I had a two month period where I couldn't fly solo due to a problem with my medical and this mucked up the order of my training a bit.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Originally Posted by Juno78

So, just to clarify, is 16 hours generally too long to have been doing circuits and not be ready to solo? Most of the replies seem to think that there is a problem so I assume that's the general consensus?

It really does "depend".

I'm in the middle of a licence upgrade at the moment, and chose do to it when available from the airfield I work on, rather than (say) taking 3 weeks off work and going off to Florida, where at least the weather is reasonably consistent.

Despite having lots (1000+) of hours flying, I've taken a lot more hours than I expected because it has stretched out over a similar period - lots of weather cancellations, and lots of gaps. This has all slowed up my personal learning curve and a 25 hour course will have ended up taking 35-40.

To be honest, I'm happy to be reasonably philosophical about the number of hours I've taken, but I've no doubt that if I'd just done the Florida thing, it would all have been done in far less hours (and thus rather cheaper). This sort of stretching is an inevitable extension of flying irregularly, which itself is a fairly inevitable consequence of trying to learn any aspect of flying in the UK.

G

[hazholmes]

From memory I spent about 12 hours in the circuit before solo-ing. Afterwards went straight back to dual circuits before starting Nav. Not really sure there is an average.

Good luck with it, sure it will all fall into place, probably when you least expect it to!

[Neptunus Rex]

Juno 78
Your instructor should have taken you out of the circuit for at least 20 minutes revision of the upper air work long ago.
The CFI should have been monitoring your progress and either flown with you himself or given you a change of instructor.
Either way, you are not being best served by their inattention to your progress. Find a better club.

[Juno78]

Thanks again everyone for the helpful and thoughtful responses. I actually think a change of club might be good for dealing with the boredom of circuits too - that might be what I need to just get that bit of improvement.

I'm inclined to think that my club haven't exactly been on top of my training, from what everyone's said here. Although I'm going to try out another instructor for a couple of lessons and see how I get on, it doesn't sound like they're doing what they should be doing. Seeing that I have to move anyway, it's probably good timing.

Out of interest, can anyone recommend any particular instructors around Nottingham / Derby? I was looking at Truman Aviation as a possibility (I want to keep flying low-wing so the fact that they have Pipers is helpful).

Also, when I do move clubs, do I just need my logbook stamped or should I be retrieving other paperwork from them as well? I think they have the form with the exams I've taken so far signed off, which I assume I'll need if I don't want to have to go back to them when it comes to applying for my licence.

[englishal]

Instead of staying in "your" circuit, why not take off, fly somewhere, do some circuits, then land for a cuppa and a chat with the FI. Then fly back and if you feel like it do some more.

Book a 4 hr slot or something rather than a lesson....plan to visit a few places, do a few things etc....keep expanding your flying so that when you do crack it you will be more confident in the cross countries.

I took about 25 hrs to solo but that was because I was getting bored and so we used to do the above which is slightly more "inefficient"....(mind you I did an intensive course and the whole lot from zero to PPL only took 5 weeks).

[1 long final]

Hi Juno,

When I read your post it made me remember how frustrated I was at that stage of training too. Just going round and round.

You mentioned the midlands, if you are flying at East Midlands Airport you will know that the circuit often takes a lot of time due to the 2 mile long runway and a bit of orbiting for jet traffic. This would add to the time. The first solo is never perfect, you have to be safe, I don't think 'tweaking' is really a good explanation from your instructor. You need to know exactly what it is that you need to do. My landings were rubbish, but kind of safe after 12 hours and I was nervously sent off to fly on my own. Is your instructor new to instructing and a little nervous to let you go maybe?

The other advice is all fantastic, I would agree, book a lesson when your usual instructor is not on, or book with another club. If you try other airfields you will end up having to learn different procedures and different length runways, it may add to the hassle.

Good luck. Please keep up posted in this thread. I would love to know how you get on. We have all pretty much been in this situation in our training where we feel frustrated and stuck.

[1 long final]

Clifford FW, Donair use C152s but also have a PA28 warrior and archer for PPL training.

[Local Variation]

Just to back up 1 long final, you won't regularly get 5 circuits an hour in at East Mids. There's nothing worse than having problems with the landing (to which you elude) and spending your hour doing orbits near Ratcliffe power station. Alternatively, work out the schedules and find the gaps in the flow. Not easy nowdays.

Years ago, when doing my PPL at East Mids, I used to go up to Hucknall to do my circuit bashing in an attempt to get my money's worth. It's no better today.

If you move to another airfield or club, I would suggest they'll take you back to handling work as part of their getting to know your current capabilities. You may not need or want to do that for all sorts of reasons including the cost of going over old ground. But yes, your Instructor has clearly got you treading water and you need to change that.

Do you really need to go as far as changing clubs or airfields ? I guess you're at Sywell ?, in which case you ought to be able resolve your circuit issues with the Instructors on site.

Seeking out the CFI is the best instruction i have read on this thread.

[rkgpilot]

I too got a bit stuck in the circuit. I just didn't seem to get 'it' - I couldn't really see what 'it' was, that I wasn't getting. After a change of instructor, to the CFI/examiner for only one lesson, 'it' was explained to me slightly differently, and hey presto 'it' clicked. I still make the odd poor landing of course and most are only average, but whatever 'it' was, a change of instructor helped a lot. A simple re-phrasing of the same instruction. I was mis-timing the roundout and flare. He said something like 'wait until the crash is inevitable, then flare'. That did it for me and I was solo a week later.

By the way, all those hours in the circuit will bear fruit; after my skills test, the examiner in the de-brief praised me for my circuit work, saying my landings were among the better ones he had had when testing PPL; (that could not be said about the rest of the test, mind....).

It is not all wasted time for you going around and around, but great experience.

I still wonder if I have still got 'it' - I am more than happy to do plenty of circuits just to get the occasional greaser.

[larssnowpharter]

Try gliding...and in three years? Stay with gliding! It'll offer far more challenges than power flying (which is fine if you're into following needles, procedures and constantly talking to ATC). In gliding you'll learn lots more about judgement skills, spatial awareness, meterology, personal decision making, managing complex workloads, handling unusual attitudes, team working and sensing the air around you. Still, if your end goal is to go from (A) to (B) in a predictable way, stay with power flying :-)

Just a brief note to support the above statement. A Silver C will give you some of the best stick and rudder and judgement skills at a relatively low cost. Invaluable experience.

[A and C]

Gliding is for those who are time rich and cash poor. while I agree that it is great fun and teaches the basics of flight very well I don't think it will help with this particular problem in a speedy way.

[Juno78]

I'm not learning at either East Midlands or Sywell - as I said in my initial post I'm at a small (AFIS) airfield where I'm generally managing five or six landings in a lesson. The reason for asking about Nottingham is that I'm going to be moving to the Derby area in the next four or five months and so can't continue flying out of my current airfield anyway.

[IO540]

Gliding is for those who are time rich and cash poor.

and single and looking (though they will prob99 be looking for quite a while; internet dating is going to be a whole lot more productive)

PPL training is much more fun if you do it as scenario-based i.e. flights to different places and mix the training into that. I am "training" my 14 year old plane-crazy son now and hopefully by 17 he will know "everything" (unless he gets into girls) and then, EASA permitting, I will send him to USA (SoCal) for a FAA+JAA PPL and an FAA IR.

The problem with scenario-based training is that it costs a lot more; your £8k average PPL will probably cost £12k. I know of businessmen who did their IR in this way.

[stevelup]

and single

Well, if you weren't single when you started gliding, that would soon change!

Someone who doesn't share your interest finds it impossible understand why you have to spend the whole weekend stood in a field and this quickly leads to friction... (well it did for me anyway!)