LAA CEO Good Value?
Personally I take the view that it serves the purpose I want it to serve,
though I put little store in posts made by people who are not prepared to come out from behind the shield of anonymity.
As Lucy Lastic says it is the LAA's site so they can have what they want but I think there are more than a few members who would welcome a more interesting site. It is hard to imagine the topic being discussed in this thread being being had on the LAA site or being made very welcome.
If the saying "people vote with their feet" is true, I will leave you to draw your own conclusions about the LAA forum.
Planemike
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Thread creep
The thread going off topic a little I think, surely winco wobble's accusations of LAA malpractice are what this was about?
Oh ! no real evidence? What a surprize!
WW in case you are wondering I am an LAA member & inspector.
Oh ! no real evidence? What a surprize!
WW in case you are wondering I am an LAA member & inspector.
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A fair point A&C
But it is noticeable that there is an element of discontent within the LAA. The CEO is the embodiment of the organisation together with the Chairman and Board.
The way I read the thread is that some of the issues that caused WW (or Welshman) to post here may have become personalised. Probably not fair or reasonable, as I know Pete Harvey does work hard for the organisation.
The LAA is an organisation still in transition and there are some members who have never really supported the new direction who are feeling abandoned.
I'm sure Brian and the Board are well aware of this, so I will wait to see how they manage to balance things.
But it is noticeable that there is an element of discontent within the LAA. The CEO is the embodiment of the organisation together with the Chairman and Board.
The way I read the thread is that some of the issues that caused WW (or Welshman) to post here may have become personalised. Probably not fair or reasonable, as I know Pete Harvey does work hard for the organisation.
The LAA is an organisation still in transition and there are some members who have never really supported the new direction who are feeling abandoned.
I'm sure Brian and the Board are well aware of this, so I will wait to see how they manage to balance things.
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LAA discontent
As an inspector I see some of this with the LAA engineering team but this is usualy from people who submit applications for modifications that are never going to be approved on safety grounds. Modifications that are safe and well presented usualy get approved quite quickly.
These frustrations by people who don't fully understand what they are trying to do to their aircraft get amplifide on forums like this and it soon becomes folk lore.
These frustrations by people who don't fully understand what they are trying to do to their aircraft get amplifide on forums like this and it soon becomes folk lore.
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How do you quote another post on this forum?
Anyway:
Rod1,
WW says he is actively involved with LAA matters and treads the boards of the LAA offices. That is not going to be "Welshman".
Point of order:
If WW feels he must post anonymously or risk excommunication then that is a serious misunderstanding of the way LAA operates. Even though it is now a limited company the CEO still has limited powers and could not remove anyone's membership. Only the EC (now a board of directors) could do that and there are plenty of checks and balances there to stop such a thing happening without a lot of justification not the least BFJH above. Even if the board did so it would then have to justify it to members at the AGM or EGM. and it could be overturned. So WW I see no reason to be anonymous and saying who you are will add credibility to your position.
As for the issue of paid leave that is between a CEO and the board. If the board approved it I trust them to run the organisation how they see fit. I would prefer he was out flying his proper aircraft however
Steve
Anyway:
Rod1,
WW says he is actively involved with LAA matters and treads the boards of the LAA offices. That is not going to be "Welshman".
Point of order:
If WW feels he must post anonymously or risk excommunication then that is a serious misunderstanding of the way LAA operates. Even though it is now a limited company the CEO still has limited powers and could not remove anyone's membership. Only the EC (now a board of directors) could do that and there are plenty of checks and balances there to stop such a thing happening without a lot of justification not the least BFJH above. Even if the board did so it would then have to justify it to members at the AGM or EGM. and it could be overturned. So WW I see no reason to be anonymous and saying who you are will add credibility to your position.
As for the issue of paid leave that is between a CEO and the board. If the board approved it I trust them to run the organisation how they see fit. I would prefer he was out flying his proper aircraft however
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I am posting this as a result of looking through the other postings.
I have been a member of the ULA/PFA virtually since its inception in Mr. Ogalvie's and Walker's time in office. I am now only a member, as it is the only way I can obtain a permit renewal for my aircraft. The organisation is now far to commercial and regulatory for my liking. Since the loss of our civil aircraft industrie, previously certified A&C chaps have infiltrated the organisation to its detriment.
I have been a member of the ULA/PFA virtually since its inception in Mr. Ogalvie's and Walker's time in office. I am now only a member, as it is the only way I can obtain a permit renewal for my aircraft. The organisation is now far to commercial and regulatory for my liking. Since the loss of our civil aircraft industrie, previously certified A&C chaps have infiltrated the organisation to its detriment.
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“That maybe fine for YOU but what about other members who may want the LAA to have have an interesting, dynamic, controversial forum”
The people in charge of the LAA had a choice. They could have continued to allow postings to be anonymous and employed moderation to keep control. This would have allowed a huge amount of control of criticism. Instead the decision was taken to only allow people to post under there own names. This has resulted in almost all criticism of the LAA being posted on boards where the LAA have no control at all. I think this was a mistake, but it is the LAA which is the loser.
If I want an opinion on maters LAA (not necessarily criticism) I ask the question on here or flyer. There are more LAA members on either board than on the LAA site.
Rod1
The people in charge of the LAA had a choice. They could have continued to allow postings to be anonymous and employed moderation to keep control. This would have allowed a huge amount of control of criticism. Instead the decision was taken to only allow people to post under there own names. This has resulted in almost all criticism of the LAA being posted on boards where the LAA have no control at all. I think this was a mistake, but it is the LAA which is the loser.
If I want an opinion on maters LAA (not necessarily criticism) I ask the question on here or flyer. There are more LAA members on either board than on the LAA site.
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Only the EC (now a board of directors) could do that and there are plenty of checks and balances there to stop such a thing happening without a lot of justification not the least BFJH above. Even if the board did so it would then have to justify it to members at the AGM or EGM. and it could be overturned.
I think if you read the rules, the Board can remove the membership of anyone and that there is no appeal process. Further, the AGM is of no relevance since the change of structure.
11a. Conduct Prejudicial to the LAA
In the event of any member being charged with conduct which the Board may consider prejudicial to the LAA or the Company, the member may be called before the Board and failing an explanation satisfactory to the Board may be cautioned, suspended, required to resign or be expelled as the Board, in their absolute discretion, may determine. Any such decision shall not be subject to challenge.
In the event of any member being charged with conduct which the Board may consider prejudicial to the LAA or the Company, the member may be called before the Board and failing an explanation satisfactory to the Board may be cautioned, suspended, required to resign or be expelled as the Board, in their absolute discretion, may determine. Any such decision shall not be subject to challenge.
Last edited by robin; 24th Jul 2010 at 18:27.
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I think Robin that you would be hard put to find many organisations without such a rule; it is the ultimate sanction against an out and out troublemaker or crook. The measure of an organisation is how they deal with such situations in reality, and as I said in my original post, in the 20 years I have been involved with PFA/LAA at the sharp end, I have only ever known of one person being suspended for 2 or 3 months.
I think the reality of the more open forum that LAA once had (as PFA back then) was that it was wholly unrepresentative of the membership. There were perhaps 30 regular posters, not all members, expressing generally negative views. It is a sad fact that people that are generally happy with things do not take the time to post that fact, but if somebody had a gripe they could use the forum to tell the world about it. That actually gives a very disjointed view of where the truth actually lies - 30 people against the untold views of the other 8000 members. I'm not saying that the 8000 members were all happy as Larry, but they certainly weren't annoyed enough to post their angst, or were happy enough with the status quo. And let's be honest, in an 8000 member association you are going to piss some people off, either their expectations are unreasonably high, or you fail in your service provision.
LAA was in a no win situation because you do not change those 30 people's minds, if they want to believe that LAA is run by a bunch of egotists with their own agendas, or that the Engineering Dept is being unduly obstructive over their mod, etc., then there's nothing I or anybody else is likely to say that will alter that view. If the site is over moderated you get accused of censorship, if you decide not to waste your time responding you get accused of being arrogant and uncaring about the members' views.
The LAA does have a full time staff, but they have enough to do without responding to the forum, and the rest of us are unpaid volunteers, most of us with a living to earn and, quite frankly, with other more important areas of activity within the Association to take care of. In short, the time spent trying to respond reasonably to the more vociferous and unreasonable posters on the forum was out of all proportion to the benefit.
IMHO having an open forum brings responsibilities to those using it to be fair, truthful and reasonable. Personally, I would not post something I would not say to somebody face to face, but sadly there are those that simply want to court controversy, have a wind up or just make trouble for trouble's sake. It pretty well put me off from bothering with it at all, and even now I post quite infrequently because I can't be bothered with the hassle.
Call me a Luddite but I simply do not believe that the current member only LAA forum makes a ha'peth of difference to whether somebody decides to be, or stays a member of the LAA . We do ask non returning members why they decide not to renew membership, and the forum, or event the entire website has never figured as a reason. If you sit and think about it for a moment, it's a pretty sad world where if you want a forum that is lively and very active you have to let people with no allegiance to the forum provider post on it, and everybody to be anonymous so they can say almost anything with minimal risk of legal comeback. You haven't been able to do the latter in other forms of media for very many years.
I think the reality of the more open forum that LAA once had (as PFA back then) was that it was wholly unrepresentative of the membership. There were perhaps 30 regular posters, not all members, expressing generally negative views. It is a sad fact that people that are generally happy with things do not take the time to post that fact, but if somebody had a gripe they could use the forum to tell the world about it. That actually gives a very disjointed view of where the truth actually lies - 30 people against the untold views of the other 8000 members. I'm not saying that the 8000 members were all happy as Larry, but they certainly weren't annoyed enough to post their angst, or were happy enough with the status quo. And let's be honest, in an 8000 member association you are going to piss some people off, either their expectations are unreasonably high, or you fail in your service provision.
LAA was in a no win situation because you do not change those 30 people's minds, if they want to believe that LAA is run by a bunch of egotists with their own agendas, or that the Engineering Dept is being unduly obstructive over their mod, etc., then there's nothing I or anybody else is likely to say that will alter that view. If the site is over moderated you get accused of censorship, if you decide not to waste your time responding you get accused of being arrogant and uncaring about the members' views.
The LAA does have a full time staff, but they have enough to do without responding to the forum, and the rest of us are unpaid volunteers, most of us with a living to earn and, quite frankly, with other more important areas of activity within the Association to take care of. In short, the time spent trying to respond reasonably to the more vociferous and unreasonable posters on the forum was out of all proportion to the benefit.
IMHO having an open forum brings responsibilities to those using it to be fair, truthful and reasonable. Personally, I would not post something I would not say to somebody face to face, but sadly there are those that simply want to court controversy, have a wind up or just make trouble for trouble's sake. It pretty well put me off from bothering with it at all, and even now I post quite infrequently because I can't be bothered with the hassle.
Call me a Luddite but I simply do not believe that the current member only LAA forum makes a ha'peth of difference to whether somebody decides to be, or stays a member of the LAA . We do ask non returning members why they decide not to renew membership, and the forum, or event the entire website has never figured as a reason. If you sit and think about it for a moment, it's a pretty sad world where if you want a forum that is lively and very active you have to let people with no allegiance to the forum provider post on it, and everybody to be anonymous so they can say almost anything with minimal risk of legal comeback. You haven't been able to do the latter in other forms of media for very many years.
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Looks like a critical disconnect from the membership. Reminds of me the re labelling of Labour into new labour - with the same discouragement of dissent.
The current forum is a waste of time - I'd like to know what's going informally in LAA - but the, under LAA struts, only two posts have been made this month. Most of the strut posts are from 2008/9.
The current forum is a waste of time - I'd like to know what's going informally in LAA - but the, under LAA struts, only two posts have been made this month. Most of the strut posts are from 2008/9.
Last edited by rusty sparrow; 24th Jul 2010 at 19:37. Reason: correction - only two posts this month, not year
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Let me see if I understand this correctly...
The LAA has been given authority by the UK government to issue permits to LAA members to have the right to fly aeroplanes that the CAA doesn't want to deal with. As such members join the LAA and pay a fee, and then as such they have the right to have a permit for their aeroplane as long as they meet certain engineering / other standards, which the LAA inspectors determine.
Now the LAA has the right to expel any member for anything which the board feels is "prejudicial" to the LAA Ltd. And by expelling a member, I assume the Permit to fly is withdrawn and then than person may no longer fly their aircraft.
Would a post on a public forum like PPrune be considered "prejudicial" to LAA Ltd..? If so I would never post my real name IF I were a member (which I am not) because they have you over a barrel and their view may well be that it is prejudicial. Old boys clubs and all that ???
The LAA has been given authority by the UK government to issue permits to LAA members to have the right to fly aeroplanes that the CAA doesn't want to deal with. As such members join the LAA and pay a fee, and then as such they have the right to have a permit for their aeroplane as long as they meet certain engineering / other standards, which the LAA inspectors determine.
Now the LAA has the right to expel any member for anything which the board feels is "prejudicial" to the LAA Ltd. And by expelling a member, I assume the Permit to fly is withdrawn and then than person may no longer fly their aircraft.
Would a post on a public forum like PPrune be considered "prejudicial" to LAA Ltd..? If so I would never post my real name IF I were a member (which I am not) because they have you over a barrel and their view may well be that it is prejudicial. Old boys clubs and all that ???
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Englishal
I have seen some real C**p on these forums in the past but your post takes first prize for.................. shall we say misreprisentation.
So far we have seen a rant from some one who will not produce any evidence to support his aligations of LAA malpractice.
I know some of the LAA management and see them as people who are commited to the advancment of light aviation and home built aircraft.
What they cant allow is the interests of peope who think that they should be able to tinker with their aircraft with out out some oversight to endanger them selfs the public and the interests of the LAA community as a whole.
In my opinion the LAA board act without predudice and with the best interests on the majority of the membership mind. Perhaps we might be enlightend as to why (or if) this member has been expelled and on what grounds?
I (and no doubt most of the membership) await the full story with interest!
So far we have seen a rant from some one who will not produce any evidence to support his aligations of LAA malpractice.
I know some of the LAA management and see them as people who are commited to the advancment of light aviation and home built aircraft.
What they cant allow is the interests of peope who think that they should be able to tinker with their aircraft with out out some oversight to endanger them selfs the public and the interests of the LAA community as a whole.
In my opinion the LAA board act without predudice and with the best interests on the majority of the membership mind. Perhaps we might be enlightend as to why (or if) this member has been expelled and on what grounds?
I (and no doubt most of the membership) await the full story with interest!
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Robin wrote:
"
I think if you read the rules, the Board can remove the membership of anyone and that there is no appeal process. Further, the AGM is of no relevance since the change of structure."
LAA is a limited company and the AGM has the same power as any other company. An AGM can question any board decision, even rescind the boards recently awarded privilege to change the rules without an AGM if the board abused it. Of course they wouldn't or we would not have voted for them in the first place. All LAA members are shareholders of the company (assuming they have opted to take up their share). So the shareholder AGM or EGM that might happen if there was abuse of this rule by the board is still fully in control as it was when we were an association.
To get back to the original issue LAA's CEO cannot remove a member, only the board can and they answer to the shareholders.
Steve
"
I think if you read the rules, the Board can remove the membership of anyone and that there is no appeal process. Further, the AGM is of no relevance since the change of structure."
LAA is a limited company and the AGM has the same power as any other company. An AGM can question any board decision, even rescind the boards recently awarded privilege to change the rules without an AGM if the board abused it. Of course they wouldn't or we would not have voted for them in the first place. All LAA members are shareholders of the company (assuming they have opted to take up their share). So the shareholder AGM or EGM that might happen if there was abuse of this rule by the board is still fully in control as it was when we were an association.
To get back to the original issue LAA's CEO cannot remove a member, only the board can and they answer to the shareholders.
Steve
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A and C wrote:
"Perhaps we might be enlightend as to why (or if) this member has been expelled and on what grounds?"
IMHO it was a bit of willy waving between a couple of strong personalities, both major assets to LAA. The person concerned was sat at the table at our last NC meeting a couple of weeks ago. If you want more detail pm me and and I will give you his email address so you can ask him yourself.
LAA is NOT Nulabour or anything unpleasant like that. They are doing their best with limited resources and in my opinion do a cracking job for all leisure pilots not just we members. We might wish to cut them some slack.
Steve
"Perhaps we might be enlightend as to why (or if) this member has been expelled and on what grounds?"
IMHO it was a bit of willy waving between a couple of strong personalities, both major assets to LAA. The person concerned was sat at the table at our last NC meeting a couple of weeks ago. If you want more detail pm me and and I will give you his email address so you can ask him yourself.
LAA is NOT Nulabour or anything unpleasant like that. They are doing their best with limited resources and in my opinion do a cracking job for all leisure pilots not just we members. We might wish to cut them some slack.
Steve
Last edited by Steve N; 25th Jul 2010 at 05:59.
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I have seen some real C**p on these forums in the past but your post takes first prize for.................. shall we say misrepresentation.
So far we have seen a rant from some one who will not produce any evidence to support his allegations of LAA malpractice.
So far we have seen a rant from some one who will not produce any evidence to support his allegations of LAA malpractice.
As for "Malpractice"...I don't think the original poster mentioned "malpractice" but was just questioning the actions of a CEO of a Ltd company of which he is a share holder. Isn't that justified? But no one has actually provided a reasonable explanation to him as far as I can see, lots of ranting and raving and twisting of words as usual. I am sure that the CEO can give a reasonable excuse or explanation. I personally think that CEO's of large organisations should be allowed to do whatever they want as long as they are "value for money" and get then job done.
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Do we need an LAA forum within PPRuNe??
Thee pages of posts down the line and WW's original questions seem to have faded into the background as the guns seem to have swung around from the CEO of the LAA to the LAA as a whole. With so many posters possessing current membership of the LAA one is prompted to think that maybe we do need to have a vehicle of sorts with which to air views that would not sit well on the LAA website forum. I can see, and agree with Brian's point that it would not be in the association's interest (and in my view that means the entire membership) to have the kind of free-for-all that we can enjoy here. So would posters that are members of the LAA think it would be a good idea if we had a separate forum heading within the PPRuNe forum network to deal with this?
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A good idea though personally I find PPRune a pain to use. Flyer perhaps.
I agree the LAA BB has been strangled and no one goes there any more. I try now and again but it's like kicking a corpse.
I agree the LAA BB has been strangled and no one goes there any more. I try now and again but it's like kicking a corpse.
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Englishal
As an LAA inspector I don't get involved in the day to day running of the LAA or the politics. My role is to inspect aircraft and uphold the airworthiness standards.
Unfortunatly some times members have to be told that their aircraft fall short of the required standard, sometimes this leads to dis-satisfaction with me personaly or the LAA managment. This dis-satisfaction sometimes spills over into one sided rants on the internet.
I do know some of the LAA management and see them working all hours in the service of the LAA, to question of the CEO attending the world gliding chapionships and then rolling in the issue of the expution of a member is in effect is in effect questioning the managment practices of the LAA on a public forum where they can't put their side of the story.
I don't think that raising these issues on a public forum before all the internal LAA procedures are exhausted is a wise idea as it is only likely that people will withdraw to entrenched positions and make an outcome that is exceptable to all harder to reach.
Unfortunatly some times members have to be told that their aircraft fall short of the required standard, sometimes this leads to dis-satisfaction with me personaly or the LAA managment. This dis-satisfaction sometimes spills over into one sided rants on the internet.
I do know some of the LAA management and see them working all hours in the service of the LAA, to question of the CEO attending the world gliding chapionships and then rolling in the issue of the expution of a member is in effect is in effect questioning the managment practices of the LAA on a public forum where they can't put their side of the story.
I don't think that raising these issues on a public forum before all the internal LAA procedures are exhausted is a wise idea as it is only likely that people will withdraw to entrenched positions and make an outcome that is exceptable to all harder to reach.
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LAA permit
Englishal
I may be wrong but I'm pretty sure you can apply for a CAA permit for any aircraft. However, it's far more expensive as different rules apply. There are homebuilds on CAA permits (usually as they fall outside the LAA rules on engine size ect), so anyone could if they so wished fly their aircraft and not be an LAA member.
Personally I'm pretty happy with the LAA except that it does these days seem to lean slightly too heavily toward kit rather than plans built support.
SS
I may be wrong but I'm pretty sure you can apply for a CAA permit for any aircraft. However, it's far more expensive as different rules apply. There are homebuilds on CAA permits (usually as they fall outside the LAA rules on engine size ect), so anyone could if they so wished fly their aircraft and not be an LAA member.
Personally I'm pretty happy with the LAA except that it does these days seem to lean slightly too heavily toward kit rather than plans built support.
SS
