Intensive IMC course this summer?
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2007
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From: Amsterdam
Intensive IMC course this summer?
I have a UK-issued JAR-FCL PPL with 200 hours PIC (*). I have some vacation days left over, and some money saved, and I'm interested in a new challenge this summer vacation. One of the things I'm considering is taking a club aircraft, hopping over to the UK for a week and do an intensive IMC course there.
Now I know that an IMC rating isn't valid outside the UK (other than removing the no-VFR-on-top restriction) so I won't be able to use it here in the Netherlands. But I think the flying skills gained will be worth it anyway.
So if I decide to do this, I'm looking for a UK school/club that has:
- Parking facilities for the club plane I'll be bringing over (probably a DA40 so the airfield needs to have Jet-A available).
- A full-time instructor willing to fly with me in said aircraft, two-three times a day.
- An examiner for the ground and flight test.
- Either camping facilities or a B&B close by.
Any thoughts/recommendations?
(*) Actually passed the 200 hour mark yesterday. Woohoo!
Now I know that an IMC rating isn't valid outside the UK (other than removing the no-VFR-on-top restriction) so I won't be able to use it here in the Netherlands. But I think the flying skills gained will be worth it anyway.
So if I decide to do this, I'm looking for a UK school/club that has:
- Parking facilities for the club plane I'll be bringing over (probably a DA40 so the airfield needs to have Jet-A available).
- A full-time instructor willing to fly with me in said aircraft, two-three times a day.
- An examiner for the ground and flight test.
- Either camping facilities or a B&B close by.
Any thoughts/recommendations?
(*) Actually passed the 200 hour mark yesterday. Woohoo!
Joined: Jan 2005
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From: South of Watford Gap
intensive IMC in UK
Hello,
Try Flying Time at Shoreham (EGKA) Flying lessons PPL CPL MEP IR IMC FNPTII UK - Flying Time Aviation FTO Shoreham
They fly DA40 and DA42, so JET 1 no problem. In addition, there are loads of B+B's, hotels etc nearby.
Enjoy!!
Try Flying Time at Shoreham (EGKA) Flying lessons PPL CPL MEP IR IMC FNPTII UK - Flying Time Aviation FTO Shoreham
They fly DA40 and DA42, so JET 1 no problem. In addition, there are loads of B+B's, hotels etc nearby.
Enjoy!!
Joined: Feb 2006
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From: Midlands
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,631
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From: UK
Backpacker
If you want to PM me I can put you in touch with an examiner / instructor and let you know where to stay. You should think at least a few weeks ahead at this time of year to ensure the instructor can set aside enough time.
If you want to PM me I can put you in touch with an examiner / instructor and let you know where to stay. You should think at least a few weeks ahead at this time of year to ensure the instructor can set aside enough time.
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 57
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From: UK
Try Sky Blue Flight Training in Norfolk.. IFR DA40 at a competitive price...
Norwich is a great Airport to train for a IMC.. easy to get to from Amsterdam...
Sky Blue Flight Training - Home
PM me if you want...DB
Norwich is a great Airport to train for a IMC.. easy to get to from Amsterdam...
Sky Blue Flight Training - Home
PM me if you want...DB
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 731
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From: Surrey, England
IMC
Hi BackPacker,
In my experience, IMC does not lend itself to rapid learning.
A couple of years ago I started the IMC course with the intention of completing it within a couple of weeks. It didn't work.
I did the ground school in a day, passed the examination without difficulty and booked myself in for about five flights a week for the next fortnight.
In fact, most of the flights I booked, I cancelled and the instructor lost money as a result. This was because I was not ready to do them.
There is a great deal of what I shall call 'practical theory' in the IMC, that you have to master on the ground before you go up and practice them in the air. If you fly without mastering this material you will just be wasting money.
In my case, after a discussion with my instructor it was decided that the best thing would be to book no more than two flights per week, on the understanding that I would be at the aerodrome practically full time practicing with RANT on the computer between flights.
As a suggestion, I wonder if it would be possible for you to do your IMC training (which is all dual) in the Netherlands and just come over to the UK to do the IMC skill-test? I don't know if this is possible, but it's the best I can think of.
Regards.
Broomstick
In my experience, IMC does not lend itself to rapid learning.
A couple of years ago I started the IMC course with the intention of completing it within a couple of weeks. It didn't work.
I did the ground school in a day, passed the examination without difficulty and booked myself in for about five flights a week for the next fortnight.
In fact, most of the flights I booked, I cancelled and the instructor lost money as a result. This was because I was not ready to do them.
There is a great deal of what I shall call 'practical theory' in the IMC, that you have to master on the ground before you go up and practice them in the air. If you fly without mastering this material you will just be wasting money.
In my case, after a discussion with my instructor it was decided that the best thing would be to book no more than two flights per week, on the understanding that I would be at the aerodrome practically full time practicing with RANT on the computer between flights.
As a suggestion, I wonder if it would be possible for you to do your IMC training (which is all dual) in the Netherlands and just come over to the UK to do the IMC skill-test? I don't know if this is possible, but it's the best I can think of.
Regards.
Broomstick
Joined: Jun 2003
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From: EuroGA.org
Well, yes, my advice is to
- get a PC sim (FSX); a cheap £10 joystick is just fine
- fly all procedures on that first
- if you cannot understand the procedure, fly it until you do (never go into a plane until you can do everything on the ground, regardless of what an instructor might say)
- allow about 25hrs (assuming no instrument skills to start with)
- try to fly the same plane that you will be flying afterwards (maximises the value of the training)
- try to avoid training in wreckage (like I did
) - it is a good revenue generator for the school but it is poor value for money
- get a PC sim (FSX); a cheap £10 joystick is just fine
- fly all procedures on that first
- if you cannot understand the procedure, fly it until you do (never go into a plane until you can do everything on the ground, regardless of what an instructor might say)
- allow about 25hrs (assuming no instrument skills to start with)
- try to fly the same plane that you will be flying afterwards (maximises the value of the training)
- try to avoid training in wreckage (like I did
) - it is a good revenue generator for the school but it is poor value for money
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 9
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From: Edinburgh
It is possible to do the IMC quickly but it's hard work and still a bit weather dependant.
I did mine in 6 days with 3 - 4 hours flying each day plus several hours each day on the PC practicing the procedures. My brain was pretty fried by the end of the week though.
I'd recommend using IPC (from the same company as OnTop). The virtual flight instructor corrects your mistakes and the scoring system let's you see exactly how you are doing against the desired standard (well actually the US IR standard with IPC). I used it for the initial rating and then to renew my IMC after a two year medical lapse - the only actual flying I did was the renewal test.
Alastair
I did mine in 6 days with 3 - 4 hours flying each day plus several hours each day on the PC practicing the procedures. My brain was pretty fried by the end of the week though.
I'd recommend using IPC (from the same company as OnTop). The virtual flight instructor corrects your mistakes and the scoring system let's you see exactly how you are doing against the desired standard (well actually the US IR standard with IPC). I used it for the initial rating and then to renew my IMC after a two year medical lapse - the only actual flying I did was the renewal test.
Alastair
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2007
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From: Amsterdam
Thanks for the replies and PMs so far.
I wonder if this is possible? I just checked LASORS and find the following:
(my bold). So it looks like training for the IMC rating within another JAA state is not allowed? Even if the training organization uses the CAA syllabus?
Done that already. I can fly an ILS on MSFS down to minima well within the half-scale deflection required and VOR/DME approaches almost within the 0/+50ft tolerance - and I blame that on the inaccuracy of the joystick, plus the C172 is a bitch to trim properly in MSFS (with the joystick I have). But I'm a bit worried about learning improper habits this way.
As a suggestion, I wonder if it would be possible for you to do your IMC training (which is all dual) in the Netherlands and just come over to the UK to do the IMC skill-test? I don't know if this is possible, but it's the best I can think of.
The IMC Rating is a national rating and can only be
endorsed onto a UK or JAR-FCL aeroplane licence.
The CAA will only add an IMC Rating to a UK issued
pilot licence. When you are training for the issue of a UK
Instrument Meteorological Conditions (IMC) you must
follow a syllabus recognised by the Civil Aviation Authority.
Training for the IMC rating is permitted outside the UK in a
non-JAA state provided that the flying training is conducted
by an organisation that is fully approved by the UK Civil
Aviation Authority for such purposes. Instruction on the
course may only be given by an IRI or a flying instructor
who is qualified to teach applied instrument flying.
endorsed onto a UK or JAR-FCL aeroplane licence.
The CAA will only add an IMC Rating to a UK issued
pilot licence. When you are training for the issue of a UK
Instrument Meteorological Conditions (IMC) you must
follow a syllabus recognised by the Civil Aviation Authority.
Training for the IMC rating is permitted outside the UK in a
non-JAA state provided that the flying training is conducted
by an organisation that is fully approved by the UK Civil
Aviation Authority for such purposes. Instruction on the
course may only be given by an IRI or a flying instructor
who is qualified to teach applied instrument flying.
- get a PC sim (FSX); a cheap £10 joystick is just fine
- fly all procedures on that first
- if you cannot understand the procedure, fly it until you do (never go into a plane until you can do everything on the ground, regardless of what an instructor might say)
- fly all procedures on that first
- if you cannot understand the procedure, fly it until you do (never go into a plane until you can do everything on the ground, regardless of what an instructor might say)
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,113
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From: Iraq and other places
LASORS is badly written; it talks about non-JAA states, but not non-UK JAA states, it seems. I'd suggect phoning the CAA and checking with them!
I must say; I find flying the Cessna on flight sim much harder than flying the Cessna in reality!
I must say; I find flying the Cessna on flight sim much harder than flying the Cessna in reality!
Joined: May 2005
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From: dk
The Great Circle: Home
Was there last Nov. Did the IMC rating in 5 days.
As stated above, with the Flight sim practise and the Oxford PC software for the IMC rating, it is not so difficult.
My initial idea was also to take my own plane, but I ended up renting it. I think you need to have a special permit to get lessons in you own aircraft.
/Peter
Was there last Nov. Did the IMC rating in 5 days.
As stated above, with the Flight sim practise and the Oxford PC software for the IMC rating, it is not so difficult.
My initial idea was also to take my own plane, but I ended up renting it. I think you need to have a special permit to get lessons in you own aircraft.
/Peter
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,631
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From: UK
I think you need to have a special permit to get lessons in you own aircraft.
Joined: May 2005
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From: Abroad
[QUOTE]So it looks like training for the IMC rating within another JAA state is not allowed?[/QUOTE
"Fly in Spain" in Spain have been doing IMC ratings for a few years now. They operate as a CAA registered facility.
"Fly in Spain" in Spain have been doing IMC ratings for a few years now. They operate as a CAA registered facility.
Joined: Jan 2008
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From: Yorkshire
The Great Circle: Home
Was there last Nov. Did the IMC rating in 5 days.
As stated above, with the Flight sim practise and the Oxford PC software for the IMC rating, it is not so difficult.
My initial idea was also to take my own plane, but I ended up renting it. I think you need to have a special permit to get lessons in you own aircraft.
/Peter
Was there last Nov. Did the IMC rating in 5 days.
As stated above, with the Flight sim practise and the Oxford PC software for the IMC rating, it is not so difficult.
My initial idea was also to take my own plane, but I ended up renting it. I think you need to have a special permit to get lessons in you own aircraft.
/Peter
very local to me and very attractive website.
Im pleased to hear you did yours in the timescale they quoted as well!..
Just wish I had a PC capable of running flight sim!!
Joined: Sep 2007
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From: Europe
Why not wait for September and get some IMC weather
Intensive course in the summer may merely result in a box tick rather than good development of skills and knowledge. You will need to fly in wind and rain so at some point so you may as well get that experience in a safe environment with your instructor while training.
Intensive course in the summer may merely result in a box tick rather than good development of skills and knowledge. You will need to fly in wind and rain so at some point so you may as well get that experience in a safe environment with your instructor while training.
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 13,787
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From: EuroGA.org
Intensive course in the summer may merely result in a box tick rather than good development of skills and knowledge. You will need to fly in wind and rain so at some point so you may as well get that experience in a safe environment with your instructor while training
"Rain" can also be quite hazardous. Not the water falling from the sky, but the big dark object which it might be falling from, with 10,000fpm vertical currents inside it
Also most IMC instructors don't like flying in IMC - not least because most of the planes are knackered and with less than great avionics. All this stuff about NDB holds is all very well in the textbooks
This is why, perversely, if somebody wants to do an IR, I recommend they go to Arizona. No time wasted.
There is plenty of opportunity to practice instrument flight for real, afterwards, in a plane of one' choice, and in non-hazardous weather of one's choice.
Joined: Jan 2005
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From: Hotel this week, hotel next week, home whenever...
I did mine in a week (well, six days - we lost one to crosswinds outside the main instrument runway "limits") and that was in November. Plenty of opportunity to find 'marginal' weather - even in Summer.
No Pre-course training on a PC - and no faffing around with RANT. Just good old fashioned solid briefing before, morning flight, thorough debrief, lunch, brief, afternoon flight, debrief, home, tea, head in book then sleep. Repeat as necessary.
Not saying that the sim and RANT aren't useful - we just didn't have them then. Do now.
Jet fuel, close to London with good rail links, all the other boxes ticked or tickable. The Pilot Centre - Denham Aerodrome. PM me if you need/want more info.
HTH
DD
No Pre-course training on a PC - and no faffing around with RANT. Just good old fashioned solid briefing before, morning flight, thorough debrief, lunch, brief, afternoon flight, debrief, home, tea, head in book then sleep. Repeat as necessary.
Not saying that the sim and RANT aren't useful - we just didn't have them then. Do now.
Jet fuel, close to London with good rail links, all the other boxes ticked or tickable. The Pilot Centre - Denham Aerodrome. PM me if you need/want more info.
HTH
DD