Run and Breaks
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FNG
One consideration with the published procedure at North Weald (requiring you to join downwind as you correctly point out) is that if you are re-joining from the east (ie where one can get a decent amount of vertical airspace to play with
), is that in order to join downwind for 02 or 20 (bearing in mind that downwind is always on the western side of the runway), you need to either scoot around to the north or the south, (both of which take you close to another airport or CTZ and possibly in a contra-direction to the prevailing circuit), or somewhere in between (perhaps in the very limited overhead).
All the while avoiding the gliders if active (always east of the field as well ie between you and your published downwind join and up to 2000' hence inhibiting the possibility of an overhead transit at 1500' to the downwind area), the para-descenders if active etc.
The ceiling is 1500' due to Stansted and the circuit height at North Weald is "not below 800' ", which means you get people circuiting from 800' upwards, sometimes to as high as 1500'.
So, despite the published downwind join, and bearing in mind that it is an Air/ground service, a join directly onto base leg from the east ie left base for 20 or right base for 02 will, providing that you are aware of and fit in around all other circuit traffic, keep you from needing to transit close to other zones, possibly against the circuit direction, or through other circuit traffic if it is perhaps not at the level one might expect. One still has to be particularly vigilant for the gliders however -they can sometimes be more difficult to spot even when you know they are there.
One consideration with the published procedure at North Weald (requiring you to join downwind as you correctly point out) is that if you are re-joining from the east (ie where one can get a decent amount of vertical airspace to play with
), is that in order to join downwind for 02 or 20 (bearing in mind that downwind is always on the western side of the runway), you need to either scoot around to the north or the south, (both of which take you close to another airport or CTZ and possibly in a contra-direction to the prevailing circuit), or somewhere in between (perhaps in the very limited overhead).All the while avoiding the gliders if active (always east of the field as well ie between you and your published downwind join and up to 2000' hence inhibiting the possibility of an overhead transit at 1500' to the downwind area), the para-descenders if active etc.
The ceiling is 1500' due to Stansted and the circuit height at North Weald is "not below 800' ", which means you get people circuiting from 800' upwards, sometimes to as high as 1500'.
So, despite the published downwind join, and bearing in mind that it is an Air/ground service, a join directly onto base leg from the east ie left base for 20 or right base for 02 will, providing that you are aware of and fit in around all other circuit traffic, keep you from needing to transit close to other zones, possibly against the circuit direction, or through other circuit traffic if it is perhaps not at the level one might expect. One still has to be particularly vigilant for the gliders however -they can sometimes be more difficult to spot even when you know they are there.
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Run in and breaks are generally performed by fast jets returning to the circuit, and they represent the quickest and most fuel and time efficient way of transitting back for a landing.
They also represent the easiest way to bring a formation into the circuit. This allows one aircraft at a time to peel off into the downwind. Straight in approaches take a great deal longer, and use more fuel with formation handling a lot more sloppy at low speeds (ie under 200 kts.)
The run and break allows a circuit join to be performed with the minimum of hassle, whilst saving time and fuel. A downwind join, for example, may cause other problems with the speed differnces in aircraft. A fast jet maybe downwind with no less than 160 kts, a C152 with 65kts(?) Problem self explanatory.
Of course due to its nature, the manoeuvre can only be performed if the circuit traffic allows it. The lead aircraft is responsible for positioning and if a run and break is attempted to a full circuit then that is a bad call and questionable airmanship.
Stiknruda's explanation is pretty accurate although initials is normally at 3-5 nm and heights vary according to aircraft type and local SOPs.
Aside from all this they're awesome fun and basically the only way to return from a trip, if you don't mess anyone else up in the process!!
Regards
They also represent the easiest way to bring a formation into the circuit. This allows one aircraft at a time to peel off into the downwind. Straight in approaches take a great deal longer, and use more fuel with formation handling a lot more sloppy at low speeds (ie under 200 kts.)
The run and break allows a circuit join to be performed with the minimum of hassle, whilst saving time and fuel. A downwind join, for example, may cause other problems with the speed differnces in aircraft. A fast jet maybe downwind with no less than 160 kts, a C152 with 65kts(?) Problem self explanatory.
Of course due to its nature, the manoeuvre can only be performed if the circuit traffic allows it. The lead aircraft is responsible for positioning and if a run and break is attempted to a full circuit then that is a bad call and questionable airmanship.
Stiknruda's explanation is pretty accurate although initials is normally at 3-5 nm and heights vary according to aircraft type and local SOPs.
Aside from all this they're awesome fun and basically the only way to return from a trip, if you don't mess anyone else up in the process!!
Regards
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Fast Errevt, I too fly ariliners in and out of Europe (and possibly the worlds) busiest airport, and I too have never done a run and break in Boeing, but then again, I have never seen a Spitfire do a radar vectored ILS down to CAT 3 minima either!
Different aircraft are operated in different ways, if you cannot cope with the concept of the run and break, then just rest assured, old chap, that the people who do carry out the manouevre are watching out for people like you who can't. As for war games, what are they? I just like practicing jet aerobatics and operating the aircraft as accurately and professionally as I can...
If anyone is genuinely interested as to what a run and break manouevre is, mail me and I will send you an explaination and diagram.
Until then.....WWWWwwwwwoooooosssshhhhhh!!!!!!
It may be not as fast as a Tornado, but who flies around at 250 feet to notice?
Different aircraft are operated in different ways, if you cannot cope with the concept of the run and break, then just rest assured, old chap, that the people who do carry out the manouevre are watching out for people like you who can't. As for war games, what are they? I just like practicing jet aerobatics and operating the aircraft as accurately and professionally as I can...
If anyone is genuinely interested as to what a run and break manouevre is, mail me and I will send you an explaination and diagram.
Until then.....WWWWwwwwwoooooosssshhhhhh!!!!!!
It may be not as fast as a Tornado, but who flies around at 250 feet to notice?
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Although R&B's are clearly dangerous if the circuit is busy with people who don't know what they are and aren't expecting them, I think there is actually a noise abatement benefit to them.
If I've got it right (and I've watched a fair few), fast noisy a/c belt into the drome and then kill the power and lose the energy with their high 'g' turn and hardly need to use the throttle again again until late final - this (as mentioned) saves fuel and time and it follows that the neighbours will have less a/c noise.
Also, I thought that the high 'g' turn was executed as a climbing turn? ie over the threshold numbers at 500' (often lower), climb and turn into late downwind at 1000'(ish).
The last two R&B's I watched were at Rochester. A swordfish, which pulled up into a fantastic climbing turn that had everybody on the ground gasping at the beauty of it, and a formation of a B13 and a Harvard. Watching the formation revealed why R&B's are favoured by military and formation pilots - I imagine that the following a/c was always quite confident about his leader's intentions and timings 'cos he could see him so well.
Steve R(1)
If I've got it right (and I've watched a fair few), fast noisy a/c belt into the drome and then kill the power and lose the energy with their high 'g' turn and hardly need to use the throttle again again until late final - this (as mentioned) saves fuel and time and it follows that the neighbours will have less a/c noise.
Also, I thought that the high 'g' turn was executed as a climbing turn? ie over the threshold numbers at 500' (often lower), climb and turn into late downwind at 1000'(ish).
The last two R&B's I watched were at Rochester. A swordfish, which pulled up into a fantastic climbing turn that had everybody on the ground gasping at the beauty of it, and a formation of a B13 and a Harvard. Watching the formation revealed why R&B's are favoured by military and formation pilots - I imagine that the following a/c was always quite confident about his leader's intentions and timings 'cos he could see him so well.
Steve R(1)
Not so N, but still FG
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Southern Cross, thanks for your sensible comments on joining at North Weald. Regrettably I don't fly to or from there as much as I used to, as my flying activities have shifted to the west of London, but I must try to get in next time there's a bash on at the Squadron.
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1: the name is Fast Erect (Mr.)
2:what is an 'Ariliner'?
3:I am a current DA holder
4:if you are so professional, why have you not noticed that your JP wonderplane has got airbrakes, therefore making R&B's utterly pointless?
2:what is an 'Ariliner'?
3:I am a current DA holder
4:if you are so professional, why have you not noticed that your JP wonderplane has got airbrakes, therefore making R&B's utterly pointless?
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1 on't care who you are.
2on't care what you fly, although if you have a DA on anything other than a an Ariliner, then I am suprised you do not see the merits of R+Bs.
3on't care.
4:Point 3. The R+B also gives excellent practice for PFLs as it is 2/3 of a forced landing.
THE END.
Moderators please close the thread, I am bored of reading drivell.
on't care who you are.2
on't care what you fly, although if you have a DA on anything other than a an Ariliner, then I am suprised you do not see the merits of R+Bs.3
on't care.4:Point 3. The R+B also gives excellent practice for PFLs as it is 2/3 of a forced landing.
THE END.
Moderators please close the thread, I am bored of reading drivell.
Avoid imitations
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The run and break was originally designed during hostilities to prevent aircraft being shot down by enemy aircraft. An aircraft on long straight finals in the landing configuration prevents an easy target to a following fighter!
The manoeuvre gives very little time for an enemy pilot to draw a bead as it gives a constantly changing flightpath and a speed reduction from the deadside to the end of the downwind leg and beyond, depending on aircraft type.
We were taught them at BFTS on JPs, using 45 to 60 degrees AoB and airbrakes out until rolling out on the d/w leg. The problem is judging when and where to begin "breaking" to fit into a busy circuit so as not to cut anyone else up.
ShyT
The manoeuvre gives very little time for an enemy pilot to draw a bead as it gives a constantly changing flightpath and a speed reduction from the deadside to the end of the downwind leg and beyond, depending on aircraft type.
We were taught them at BFTS on JPs, using 45 to 60 degrees AoB and airbrakes out until rolling out on the d/w leg. The problem is judging when and where to begin "breaking" to fit into a busy circuit so as not to cut anyone else up.
ShyT
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Noisy Hooligan...
got to give it to you straight, big boy, I also think you are talking complete ball-cocks.
When a R&B becomes 2/3 of a forced landing, i will show my bare arse in Woolies window for a fortnight.
Stick to talking about Ariliners, if thats what turns you on.
got to give it to you straight, big boy, I also think you are talking complete ball-cocks.
When a R&B becomes 2/3 of a forced landing, i will show my bare arse in Woolies window for a fortnight.
Stick to talking about Ariliners, if thats what turns you on.
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I just tried a R & B in my A330 Ariliner, bugger me I got 2/3 way round the circuit and my engine failed. I was really glad of the practise I had received earlier as I executed a perfect landing anyway. Thanks NH for the valuable advice, it saved a very embarrasing crash .
Arrse - kan't spall
[ 05 August 2001: Message edited by: javelin ]
.Arrse - kan't spall
[ 05 August 2001: Message edited by: javelin ]
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Shy Tourque is quite correct. It was designed as a way to avoid being shot down in the circuit.
You have to admit it works, how many harvards and jet provost have been shot down at North Weald in the last 50 years. Just a pity that others who try to do a standard join (Note the phraseology here, STANDARD join) have to put up with these pratts playing war.
Oh, if the argument starts to go against you, don't worry, just ask the moderators to close down this thread as you are bored with it.
Come come come. There can be NO justification for such a maneuver.
You have to admit it works, how many harvards and jet provost have been shot down at North Weald in the last 50 years. Just a pity that others who try to do a standard join (Note the phraseology here, STANDARD join) have to put up with these pratts playing war.
Oh, if the argument starts to go against you, don't worry, just ask the moderators to close down this thread as you are bored with it.
Come come come. There can be NO justification for such a maneuver.
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Gentlemen!
A run-in-and-break is designed to allow a very standard arrival pattern to a runway. You run in from an 'initial' point, which is a nominal distance out from the 'in-use' threshold, and fly along the 'in-use' runway, on the runway heading and slightly offset on the deadside. At an appropriate point as you pass along the runway you 'break' into the circuit to fit in with other circuit traffic. In the military, the speed is irrelevant as it works at all speeds, the amount of G used during the break bleeds this off if necessary. Climbing, descending or staying level in the break is irrelevant. In military fast jets the reason it is done is because we fly in formations and it is the quickest and tidyest way of getting a formation to the airfield and on the ground in good weather.
The nice thing about the procedure (note I call it a procedure, cos that's what it is) is that is is very standard. When you call 'initials' anyone in the local area can look and see you in the appropriate place and they know that you are going to fly from your current location, directly along the runway, on runway heading, and out of their way, until you 'break'. The advantage it has for the joinee is that you can see all traffic in the circuit as they are all offset to one side of you as you run in to the airfield. I would say that this is not the case with the current collection of accepted airfield joins used around the world.
PS. How can you say that the overhead join is the 'standard join' when it is rarely practised if it is actually allowed at all at some airfields.
A run-in-and-break is designed to allow a very standard arrival pattern to a runway. You run in from an 'initial' point, which is a nominal distance out from the 'in-use' threshold, and fly along the 'in-use' runway, on the runway heading and slightly offset on the deadside. At an appropriate point as you pass along the runway you 'break' into the circuit to fit in with other circuit traffic. In the military, the speed is irrelevant as it works at all speeds, the amount of G used during the break bleeds this off if necessary. Climbing, descending or staying level in the break is irrelevant. In military fast jets the reason it is done is because we fly in formations and it is the quickest and tidyest way of getting a formation to the airfield and on the ground in good weather.
The nice thing about the procedure (note I call it a procedure, cos that's what it is) is that is is very standard. When you call 'initials' anyone in the local area can look and see you in the appropriate place and they know that you are going to fly from your current location, directly along the runway, on runway heading, and out of their way, until you 'break'. The advantage it has for the joinee is that you can see all traffic in the circuit as they are all offset to one side of you as you run in to the airfield. I would say that this is not the case with the current collection of accepted airfield joins used around the world.
PS. How can you say that the overhead join is the 'standard join' when it is rarely practised if it is actually allowed at all at some airfields.
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I have held a pilots licence from the mid eighties and until this thread came about I had no idea what a run-and-break was. If I heard someone call “Initial” I would have no idea where to look. Most Pilots who haven’t read this thread are in the same position.
At least three people are dead because of this procedure. If the military use it then fine, leave it with the military as we do with other procedures like shooting down “bogies”, strafing enemy targets, and mid-air re-fuelling.
I can see that at some airfields (Kemble, Duxford) there is a case for allowing this to carry on with some of the faster traffic, BUT it should be promulgated in the flight guides and the circuit should be closed while the Big Boys play war. This of course would mean the Airfield would be permanently closed to non-radio traffic.
At least three people are dead because of this procedure. If the military use it then fine, leave it with the military as we do with other procedures like shooting down “bogies”, strafing enemy targets, and mid-air re-fuelling.
I can see that at some airfields (Kemble, Duxford) there is a case for allowing this to carry on with some of the faster traffic, BUT it should be promulgated in the flight guides and the circuit should be closed while the Big Boys play war. This of course would mean the Airfield would be permanently closed to non-radio traffic.
Not so N, but still FG
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Hi there New Bloke, haven't seen you round here for a while. Whatever the position on a run and break executed according to the standard drill, it's worth noting that when the midair occurred at North Weald the Yak had not flown a standard run and break. The Cessna pilot was probably familiar with a standard R&B as he flew from North Weald regularly.
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Hi FNG,
I am just finishing my fallow period during which I just LURK.
Regarding the R & B at North Weald, two points.
A couple of years ago I used to fly from North Weald fairly regularly and I still didn't know what a R & B was.
The other point, I hadn't heard that the R & B that caused the accident was Non-standard. In what way was this Non-standard and do we know why a Non-Standard proceedure flown?
I still maintain that it should not be used. If we say that this procedure has to be used at civil G A Airfields, then it should be included in the PPL syllabus and taught to all pilots. We would need to put another 2 – 3 hours on the PPL (Including NPL). I’m sure we will be thanked for that.
Have a look at the sky, B I G isn’t it. And yet even in the open FIR there are mid-Air collisions. Now think about the sky around an Airport, especially North Weald with Stapleford to the south and Stansted to the North (and above – if you see what I mean). When I go there I want everyone to see me (see various threads about landing lights in the vicinity of Airfields) and I want to see everyone else. To give me half a chance to be able to see everyone else, I need to know where to look for them.
----edit-------
Having just re-read the whole thread two more points.
The guys doing the R & B won't know where to look either, is initial 1 mile, 2 miles, 3 miles? Take your pick.
Noisy H. You started off asking for comments, then seemed to get bored with comments not to your liking
---end of edit--------
[ 06 August 2001: Message edited by: New Bloke ]
I am just finishing my fallow period during which I just LURK.
Regarding the R & B at North Weald, two points.
A couple of years ago I used to fly from North Weald fairly regularly and I still didn't know what a R & B was.
The other point, I hadn't heard that the R & B that caused the accident was Non-standard. In what way was this Non-standard and do we know why a Non-Standard proceedure flown?
I still maintain that it should not be used. If we say that this procedure has to be used at civil G A Airfields, then it should be included in the PPL syllabus and taught to all pilots. We would need to put another 2 – 3 hours on the PPL (Including NPL). I’m sure we will be thanked for that.
Have a look at the sky, B I G isn’t it. And yet even in the open FIR there are mid-Air collisions. Now think about the sky around an Airport, especially North Weald with Stapleford to the south and Stansted to the North (and above – if you see what I mean). When I go there I want everyone to see me (see various threads about landing lights in the vicinity of Airfields) and I want to see everyone else. To give me half a chance to be able to see everyone else, I need to know where to look for them.
----edit-------
Having just re-read the whole thread two more points.
The guys doing the R & B won't know where to look either, is initial 1 mile, 2 miles, 3 miles? Take your pick.
Noisy H. You started off asking for comments, then seemed to get bored with comments not to your liking
---end of edit--------
[ 06 August 2001: Message edited by: New Bloke ]
Not so N, but still FG
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New Bloke, did you have a look at the accident report? (I posted the link further up the thread). Others have commented on the facts recorded in the report (1) that the Yak pilot deviated from the usual R&B pattern to fly over his house and (2) that the Cessna was in a quite wide downwind position. NB before friends of the deceased on either side flick the safety catches off their flame throwers, I am merely reporting what others have said and expressing no conclusions of my own.
PS: Surely a bit pessimistic to suggest 2-3 hrs needed to inform PPLs about R&Bs? It doesn't take that long to learn a standard overhead join, and most of us can self- brief for a non-standard join by reading the Pooleys, AFE Guide or whatever or ringing the airfield before we set off. Is it that much different to learning how to mix it with heavy traffic at a regional airport?
PPS: having said that it is surprising what useful info the published guides do not include. The guides might point out where R&Bs occur and maybe add a diagram. Any editors of airfield guides reading this?
[ 06 August 2001: Message edited by: FNG ]
PS: Surely a bit pessimistic to suggest 2-3 hrs needed to inform PPLs about R&Bs? It doesn't take that long to learn a standard overhead join, and most of us can self- brief for a non-standard join by reading the Pooleys, AFE Guide or whatever or ringing the airfield before we set off. Is it that much different to learning how to mix it with heavy traffic at a regional airport?
PPS: having said that it is surprising what useful info the published guides do not include. The guides might point out where R&Bs occur and maybe add a diagram. Any editors of airfield guides reading this?
[ 06 August 2001: Message edited by: FNG ]
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New Bloke,
I don't mean any offence by this but if you used to fly at North Weald and didn't know what a Run and Break was and heard people call initials but didn't know what that meant - Did you not ask someone what it was all about?
BTW I agree with your point about a run and break being an unusual practice (I wouldn't say non-standard) so if airfields permit R&B's maybe they should include the details of the procedure in the TAP. And as I said earlier where is the harm in learning an extra procedure which gives you an alternative choice of an approach, you can never stop learning in this game.
I don't mean any offence by this but if you used to fly at North Weald and didn't know what a Run and Break was and heard people call initials but didn't know what that meant - Did you not ask someone what it was all about?
BTW I agree with your point about a run and break being an unusual practice (I wouldn't say non-standard) so if airfields permit R&B's maybe they should include the details of the procedure in the TAP. And as I said earlier where is the harm in learning an extra procedure which gives you an alternative choice of an approach, you can never stop learning in this game.