PPL MEP v SEP question

[thompsonmarkp]

Dear all

Will try and keep this short..

I achieved an MEP over a year ago and of course this has now lapsed. I have now not flown for ages and need to get my 12 hours in to renew my SEP which expires mid September.

So, my question is, is it permissible to revalidate my MEP now and forget about SEP flying? This way I will just be able to fly MEP on my PPL.

Thoughts?

Cheers

Mark

[mad_jock]

Just renew your SEP by test it will cost less

And its prefectly acceptable to only have MEP valid.

[flyhighspeed300]

The answer is Yes.

The 12hours (one hours dual time) within 12month is for SEP. After this you have to do a checkout ride/ test with a examiner to get back your SEP.

On your MEP you have to do a checkout/test with an examiner. However MEP examiners tend to do be much more indepth with getting thing perfect as they normally do IR/class rating/MEP rating which are normally done on commercial pilots.

Its like it takes 6hours minimum to get a MEP rating, where as you can fly an single engine aircraft with an undercarriage/ turboprop not on a class rating or even a presurisation aircraft with just a quick checkout ride.

[BillieBob]

No, I don't know what he's gibbering about either. The actual answer to the original question is 'Yes, it is permissible to renew (not revalidate) your MEP now and forget about SEP flying.'

[IO540]

What are the renewal requirements for MEP? I am thinking of doing a JAA MEP in a DA42 (have a SEP). Do 100-150hrs/year, plus have a SE CPL/IR.

[mad_jock]

Its a test every year which can be combined with IR if you have one.

[Fuji Abound]

IO540

Dont do it in a DA42 - you will be restricted to the 42, single lever ops etc. (Unless you definitely never intend to fly a "proper" twin).

Dont forget you will eventually need a glass sign off for the 42.

(I dont think any of these "rules" have changed but who knows these days).

[IO540]

It's OK; I have no interest in twins (esp. anything diesel, in the current decade) but I keep half an eye on taking out an anti-EASA insurance policy in the form of a JAA IR, and one of the options, in a certain warm place well south of here (not the one you are thinking of; that one is all cowboys) is an efficient all-inclusive package best done on a DA42. I would then end up with a fresh JAA (non-UK) PPL/ME/IR. They have no avgas so I'd have no option anyway And as MJ says, the IR will need renewing every year anyway.

[BillieBob]

Dont do it in a DA42 - you will be restricted to the 42, single lever ops etc.

A fairly wild exaggeration. If you do the initial MEP course on a DA42 (EFIS and FADEC), you will need differences training before flying a conventional twin. However, as differences training is required to transfer for the first time between any two MEP types (e.g. BE76 to PA34), this is hardly a significant problem. There is no such thing as a 'glass sign off'.

The rules haven't changed, it's just that you clearly do not understand them.

If the object is simply to gain a JAA MEIR prior to the adoption of the EASA implementing rules, with no immediate intention of using the MEP privileges, then the DA42 is probably the best option. It should be both cheaper and easier to pass the skill test in that aeroplane than in a conventional twin, especially if you go far enough south. The fact that the IR is done outside the UK is entirely irrelevant and will not be apparent from the rating entered in the licence.

The revalidation and renewal requirements for a MEP class rating are the same - a Licensing Proficiency Check. The MEP class rating can be revalidated/renewed at the same time as the IR only if the LPC is conducted in an aeroplane (i.e. not in an FNPT). However, if you have no interest in twins per se, why bother to revalidate? You can maintain the IR on an SEP and simply renew the ME privileges if and when you want to use them.

[VMC-on-top]

IO540

I have no interest in twins

Sounds a stupid question but why not? Fuel consumption, running costs?

Separately, i suppose the question put the other way, why would one choose MEP over SEP - is the only advantage safety and (potentially), greater useable load?

[IO540]

Having said all this I would put money 10:1 on EASA not getting their way. The 5-10k euros cost, plus the time wasted on the 7 exams, is just an insurance policy on the 1/10

why not? Fuel consumption, running costs?

Partly because where this would be done they have a lot of water, and if I am flying somebody else's plane, especially a Diamond, I want to be extra careful

For my own ownership purposes, a twin is not a useful proposition for me. Diamond will remain unproven for some 5 years and that is only if they accumulate a really excellent reliability record over that time.

The old piston twins don't interest me. Awesome running cost, and most of them attract the IFR charges. They are also very expensive to buy newish (they still make the Baron and the Seneca, I think) and the maintenance costs, especially the old ones, are eye watering. You are easily looking at fixed costs of £20k p.a. If I was upgrading from the TB20, a Jetprop is the most logical choice.

[Fuji Abound]

However, as differences training is required to transfer for the first time between any two MEP types (e.g. BE76 to PA34), this is hardly a significant problem.

The difference between flying a DA42 and conventional twin is significant. You should not forget these days there may even be pilots coming straight from a DA40. You may not think it is a significant problem but many find it is a substantial transition form a DA42 to a conventional twin. On the other hand the transition between the majority of conventional light twins is far more about ensuring familiarity with the different systems than being comfortable actually handling the thing. When I first flew a DA42 I was almost instantly comfortable with the aircraft and found few operational differences between the 42 and the 40 whereas when I first flew an Aztec the differences at first appeared substantial. Transitioning from an Aztec to a Seneca was a complete non event.

There is no such thing as a 'glass sign off'.

Well you had better explain that to most clubs and schools that oeprate glass aircraft because you will not find (m)any that will agree with you.

I agree that there is a school of argument that you can ignore LASORS and also that the ANO is not clear (so far as glass is concerned). However

(2) The holder of a licence to which this article applies is not entitled to exercise the privileges of an aircraft rating specified in Section 1 of Part B of Schedule 7 which is included in the licence on a flight unless—

(c) the holder has undertaken differences training in accordance with paragraph 1.235 of Section 1 of JAR-FCL 1 in the case of an aeroplane and paragraph 2.235 of Section 1 of JAR-FCL 2 in the case of a helicopter; and
(d) detailed information about that differences training is entered in the holder’s personal flying log book.

which is at least one reason why practically there is an expectation to see a sign off in the pilots log book that he has had difference training on a G1000 or Avidyne.

The rules haven't changed, it's just that you clearly do not understand them.

I may not understand them without reading them again - and to be frank I cant be bothered as it doesnt much matter to me - I willl leave that to you. What I can relate is my real world experience, so for anyone who wants to rent a DA42, or wants a twin rating and wants to feel comfortable flying both a 42 and a conventional twin I stand by my first post and wish everyone else the best of luck in telling the hire operator what enteries he does and doesnt need in his log book before they agree to hand over the keys.

PS - IO - I now understand and appreciate this is of non relevance to your post and for the purposes you describe then a 42 is the way to go. As you know they are real easy to fly. Mind you if you are flying in a certain warm place in good VMC under the hood for your purpose I am not sure what is to be gained in doing it in a 42 over a 40, although given the cost is probably not a factor then I would agree fill your boots with some twin time! Moreover the 40s are really not very nice at all, whereas the 42 are a treat as long as you are not paying for the maintenance.

[gyrotyro]

Twin operating costs

IO540.. re twin costs.

I think that you have over estimated the cost of operating a Twin. I have a PA30 Twin Comanche and it doesn't cost much more to operate than my old Cessna 182 RG.

Fuel burn is 60 LPH at 160 kts and as the a/c hold 450 litres I can take advantage of tanking up in the Channel Islands or via drawback when traveling abroad, consequently my fuel costs only £1.17p currently.

Insurance is £1600 fully insured. The a/c is on the "N" reg and an Annual inspection generally costs around £1500. The Twin Comanche is less than two tonnes so there are no Euro charges for airways use.

There are many "G" reg singles that cost more than this to operate.

With regard to licence revalidations, when my examiner does my twin renewal it also counts as a single engine renewal so no need to do two tests.

[IO540]

Indeed; the TwinCom is efficient, in both fuel and the MTOW being under 2T. But they are all very old now.

[S-Works]

With regard to licence revalidations, when my examiner does my twin renewal it also counts as a single engine renewal so no need to do two tests.

Only if you have also met the SEP revalidation by experience requirements does the MEP test also cover you for your instructional flight requirements. An MEP test on it's own does not cover you for SEP.

[derekf]

That's interesting and something I wasn't aware of.

Just to make sure I get it correct, for the purposes of revalidating my SEP provided I meet all the other requirements regarding 12 hours in the last year (or whatever), the one hour with an instructor can be in an MEP as opposed to SEP and could be my ME/IR revalidation ride?

[Fuji Abound]

Yes - correct.

[derekf]

Excellent

[Whopity]

the one hour with an instructor can be in an MEP as opposed to SEP and could be my ME/IR revalidation ride?

No and Yes!

One hour with an instructor in an MEP does not count towards your SEP revalidation. If you complete a licensing skill test or proficiency check on any class or type inc a B747, it exempts you from the requirement to complete a one hour instructional flight as part of the SEP revalidation.