I-Pad - almost useless as an EFB
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I-Pad - almost useless as an EFB
This video shows heavy reflections - as expected for a glossy plain-technology LCD.
A grossly over-hyped product for aviation.
Compare it with this image of a tablet with a specialised sunlight-readable screen, taken in direct sunlight. Most tablets on the market are not available with this type of LCD (and the LS800 in the last pic is no longer made) but the more expensive ones are available with it e.g. this one.
A grossly over-hyped product for aviation.
Compare it with this image of a tablet with a specialised sunlight-readable screen, taken in direct sunlight. Most tablets on the market are not available with this type of LCD (and the LS800 in the last pic is no longer made) but the more expensive ones are available with it e.g. this one.
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Odd there's no Windows 7 support on that last one - you'd have thought it would be the way forward as touch support is much better than XP Tablet edition (which in my limited experience - Samsung Q1 - was a bit pants).
Is it technically possible to produce a capacitive touchscreen with matte finish?
Tim
Is it technically possible to produce a capacitive touchscreen with matte finish?
Tim
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Yes, you can have any surface finish.
The Samsung Q1, IIRC, was not a "proper tablet" which has an inductive touch screen, which can be operated only with the special pen. This is both good and bad: good because you can keep the thing on your knee and have bits of paper lying on top and you can write on them, etc, and bad because you have to use that special pen all the time you want to interact with it.
IMHO the inductive touch screen is better because it eliminates accidental interactions which are the last thing you want in the cockpit scenario. Also, most interaction is just fishing out approach plates, which doesn't need much activity.
The Samsung Q1, IIRC, was not a "proper tablet" which has an inductive touch screen, which can be operated only with the special pen. This is both good and bad: good because you can keep the thing on your knee and have bits of paper lying on top and you can write on them, etc, and bad because you have to use that special pen all the time you want to interact with it.
IMHO the inductive touch screen is better because it eliminates accidental interactions which are the last thing you want in the cockpit scenario. Also, most interaction is just fishing out approach plates, which doesn't need much activity.
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Sadly based on that video the iPad looks useless for in cockpit purposes - such a shame.
IO - the Sumo looks a good solution, but no one seems to obvioulsy sell them - have you found a supplier?
As you know I am all glass anyway but for other reasons I am interested to see whether anyone comes up with a useable sun light readable notepad. The Motion pad does a pretty good job but I dont think they are any longer manufactured?
IO - the Sumo looks a good solution, but no one seems to obvioulsy sell them - have you found a supplier?
As you know I am all glass anyway but for other reasons I am interested to see whether anyone comes up with a useable sun light readable notepad. The Motion pad does a pretty good job but I dont think they are any longer manufactured?
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Sumo UK sell them but extracting info from them is like trying to get PPR for a non Schengen flight out of San Sebastian 
They would not even talk to me until they telephoned me to check I was not shipping them to Iran for designing atomic bombs (no kidding).
If you google for
sumo st312
you dig out a few resellers. I have some pricing... trying to check it out versus exact part numbers
10.4" Wireless Tablet ,Atom Z530 1.6GHz , 2GB Flash 1GB Ram Xpe OS
£1,362.34
10.4" Wireless Tablet ,Atom Z530 1.6GHz , 32GB SSD, 1GB Ram, Tablet PC
£1,528.37
3M Pix CCD Camera integrated (362/312)
£70.26
extended use internal Battery Pack (Li-Ion, 28W) aftermarket
£104.02
8.4" Outdoor Viewable LCD, add
£178.63
10.4" Outdoor Viewable LCD, add
£238.18
Extended Capacity Internal Battery Pack upgrade (only with new unit)
£23.82
1 - 2GB RAM upgrade for DT312
£59.54
i.e. basically about £2k for a sunlight readable ST312 10" tablet with a 32GB SSD and a GPRS/3G radio (handy for loading up approach plates which somebody emailed you before the flight, etc).
A very similar price to the Motion LS800 I currently use but this is a much slicker product AFAICT without actually seeing the real final-spec item.
I did have a play with them at Friedrichshafen, where a very arrogant "aviation tablet shop" outfit was flogging them off the Jepp stand for a cool 2900 euros for the very basic version but since they were not interested in discussing details I could not establish the exact part numbers. I think the ST312 is the one to go for, with the silly corner rubbers removed. These are very light and the display is the best you have ever seen.
I am sure they are custom made in China - just like the Xplore IX104 and prob99 the LS800.
Motion is out of this game now.
They would not even talk to me until they telephoned me to check I was not shipping them to Iran for designing atomic bombs (no kidding).If you google for
sumo st312
you dig out a few resellers. I have some pricing... trying to check it out versus exact part numbers
10.4" Wireless Tablet ,Atom Z530 1.6GHz , 2GB Flash 1GB Ram Xpe OS
£1,362.34
10.4" Wireless Tablet ,Atom Z530 1.6GHz , 32GB SSD, 1GB Ram, Tablet PC
£1,528.37
3M Pix CCD Camera integrated (362/312)
£70.26
extended use internal Battery Pack (Li-Ion, 28W) aftermarket
£104.02
8.4" Outdoor Viewable LCD, add
£178.63
10.4" Outdoor Viewable LCD, add
£238.18
Extended Capacity Internal Battery Pack upgrade (only with new unit)
£23.82
1 - 2GB RAM upgrade for DT312
£59.54
i.e. basically about £2k for a sunlight readable ST312 10" tablet with a 32GB SSD and a GPRS/3G radio (handy for loading up approach plates which somebody emailed you before the flight, etc).
A very similar price to the Motion LS800 I currently use but this is a much slicker product AFAICT without actually seeing the real final-spec item.
I did have a play with them at Friedrichshafen, where a very arrogant "aviation tablet shop" outfit was flogging them off the Jepp stand for a cool 2900 euros for the very basic version
but since they were not interested in discussing details I could not establish the exact part numbers. I think the ST312 is the one to go for, with the silly corner rubbers removed. These are very light and the display is the best you have ever seen.I am sure they are custom made in China - just like the Xplore IX104 and prob99 the LS800.
Motion is out of this game now.
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Interesting.
I'm currently looking at creating a new panel for an LAA fitout.
Something along these lines:
http://http://www.aldini.it/gallerie...ors/index.html
It's not something I profess to know much about....
I'm currently looking at creating a new panel for an LAA fitout.
Something along these lines:
http://http://www.aldini.it/gallerie...ors/index.html
It's not something I profess to know much about....
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There is a lot of avionics for homebuilts. I don't think you would gain anything by integrating a tablet computer into the panel, though it would probably save a bit of money.
The main application for tablet computers in the cockpit is to display approach plates, or run a VFR chart. But you won't be needing approach plates on a homebuilt (except in an emergency, I guess).
The main application for tablet computers in the cockpit is to display approach plates, or run a VFR chart. But you won't be needing approach plates on a homebuilt (except in an emergency, I guess).
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Hopefully there will be screen protectors for the iPad and if these are like the ones for the phone they will also have a more matt surface so there is a chance this might help. It's a good toy otherwise.
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The iPad is going to be £400 for the entry level model - about a fifth of the cost of the device mentioned above.
It's an utterly pointless comparison.
P R E S S R E L E A S E
Breaking news... Something that costs five times as much as something else and has a specific feature executes that particular feature better than the thing costing five times less. How can this be?
E N D S
It's an utterly pointless comparison.
P R E S S R E L E A S E
Breaking news... Something that costs five times as much as something else and has a specific feature executes that particular feature better than the thing costing five times less. How can this be?
E N D S
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It's called "life" 
The sunlight readable screen costs probably £10 extra to make. It is a set of polarised layers, AIUI, with some fancy chemicals in there.
They generally sell the screen for an extra £200-300.
The biggest problem is not the £200-300 though. It is the fact that the marketing departments have decided to offer this screen only on devices which are already heavily price-inflated, for vertical markets (warehousing, delivery services, etc) where huge discounts are then given to industrial users who buy say 1000 of them. That's why these things have e.g. barcode scanners as options.
It's a bit like turboprop engines are offered only on pressurised airframes which will always cost £2M+ (well not quite; there is the Caravan etc but you get the idea).
The other problem is that these screens are not very good for watching movies, so Jobs is not going to offer a sunlight readable Ipad.
In the end, a tablet which is not sunlight readable is as useful to a pilot as a chocolate teapot. Probably 99% of airways IFR is done in VMC which in daytime is very bright sunlight.
I print out approach plates, enroute chart sections, etc, but I usually have no printer (or a means of printing) when on the move, so a tablet which can display a large database of plates is the only way to deal with a multiple sequence of diversions.
The other approach is an e-book reader like these but none of them can run any aviation software; they are purely PDF readers. And since the Ipad cannot run any Europe-relevant aviation software either, it is aiming for the same market. Except it isn't sunlight readable whereas the e-book readers are totally sunlight readable.
The sunlight readable screen costs probably £10 extra to make. It is a set of polarised layers, AIUI, with some fancy chemicals in there.
They generally sell the screen for an extra £200-300.
The biggest problem is not the £200-300 though. It is the fact that the marketing departments have decided to offer this screen only on devices which are already heavily price-inflated, for vertical markets (warehousing, delivery services, etc) where huge discounts are then given to industrial users who buy say 1000 of them. That's why these things have e.g. barcode scanners as options.
It's a bit like turboprop engines are offered only on pressurised airframes which will always cost £2M+ (well not quite; there is the Caravan etc but you get the idea).
The other problem is that these screens are not very good for watching movies, so Jobs is not going to offer a sunlight readable Ipad.
In the end, a tablet which is not sunlight readable is as useful to a pilot as a chocolate teapot. Probably 99% of airways IFR is done in VMC which in daytime is very bright sunlight.
I print out approach plates, enroute chart sections, etc, but I usually have no printer (or a means of printing) when on the move, so a tablet which can display a large database of plates is the only way to deal with a multiple sequence of diversions.
The other approach is an e-book reader like these but none of them can run any aviation software; they are purely PDF readers. And since the Ipad cannot run any Europe-relevant aviation software either, it is aiming for the same market. Except it isn't sunlight readable whereas the e-book readers are totally sunlight readable.
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A grossly over-hyped product for aviation.
It's for consuming media, around your house. It seems a little unfair to criticise it for something it's not designed to do.
If someone writes aviation software for it, that's their perogative. I could write aviation software for a ZX Spectrum - doesn't mean it'll be any use in a cockpit, or that it's been pitched as such.
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I can also now confirm that it is perfectly readable in the cockpit. Having played with it for a few days now testing some EFB software I can say that in my opinion it has the potential to to be a winner.
Of course of you fly a low wing goldfish bowl then anything might prove a little difficult to read, but certainly in my Cessna and my proper work aircraft it has been terrific.
I will post some pics when I get a chance.
Of course of you fly a low wing goldfish bowl then anything might prove a little difficult to read, but certainly in my Cessna and my proper work aircraft it has been terrific.
I will post some pics when I get a chance.
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SoCal - the point you make is exactly right.
However, it does seem odd that Apple did not consider sun light readability. It seems to me the iPad is very much sold as a lifestyle product - the sort of thing you might sit in the garden to watch a movie or read a book and yes even on your lounger on the beach and not just in the 7.30 carriage to London Bridge attempting to impress the other passengers.
C'est la vie - it isnt sunlight readable and whether or not it might have found a niche as a pilot's companion the fact remains it would appear to be useless in the cockpit. The thread is therefore justifed as it saves people considering it as an option and being disappointed.
(Edited to add Bose has an alternative point of view, so perhaps the jury is still out - my opinion was based entirely on the rest of this thread and the video)
However, it does seem odd that Apple did not consider sun light readability. It seems to me the iPad is very much sold as a lifestyle product - the sort of thing you might sit in the garden to watch a movie or read a book and yes even on your lounger on the beach and not just in the 7.30 carriage to London Bridge attempting to impress the other passengers.
C'est la vie - it isnt sunlight readable and whether or not it might have found a niche as a pilot's companion the fact remains it would appear to be useless in the cockpit. The thread is therefore justifed as it saves people considering it as an option and being disappointed.
(Edited to add Bose has an alternative point of view, so perhaps the jury is still out - my opinion was based entirely on the rest of this thread and the video)
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There is a lot of aviation software being developed in the USA - facilitiated by them having free and cockpit-usable approach plates and free enroute charts out there (here we have neither of those).
One company out there has a deal with Jepp and that one could thus offer European coverage. But at Jepp prices, say £2500 for Europe, per year, this is not a popular option in GA.
One company out there has a deal with Jepp and that one could thus offer European coverage. But at Jepp prices, say £2500 for Europe, per year, this is not a popular option in GA.
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Further to the comments about the Samsung Q1. A couple of years back I went for the ASUS R2H - it has a built in GPS. It's a shame you can't get it any more. Mine is now running Windows 7 with the GPS driving Memory Map showing half mill charts. I also use the excellent Skydemon planning software on it (great for diversions when landing away if you have a wifi or 3G connection). I also download my EDM 700 data directly. It even came with a 3.5 hour battery. Only major downside is the usual screen in sunlight problem. Shame how sometimes things sometimes go backwards rather than forwards.
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I am in discussions with Jepp at the moment to use their data both as an extension to Jeppview subscriptions and as a stand alone data source at attractive rates. The discussions are encouraging. I am hoping we will have a viable app with over air updates plus a flight planning as an extension of a current popular app by mid summer.
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SolidFX already have a worldwide deal with Jepp.
Currently they are doing it on the Irex e-book, and they will soon be (according to U.S. reports from trade shows) doing an I-pad version.
The cost of the download service is suprisingly low - provided you already are a full-price Jepp subscriber for the applicable geographical area i.e. about 2500 quid for all of "Europe"
There is no cheap way to do this stuff, if you want Jepp. And if you don't want Jepp, you can buy that Irex e-book reader and download the free EAD plates....
Maybe Jepp UK is not aware of what Jepp USA is doing?
In fairness to Jepp, they have no way to cut prices for a different delivery mechanism, because "IFR is IFR" and it's all the same whether in a PA28 or a B747. In theory they could produce plates without Cat C/D data but it would be daft for them to duplicate their database maintenance effort for the 4-digit number of European IFR pilots - most of whom get free plates anyway.
Currently they are doing it on the Irex e-book, and they will soon be (according to U.S. reports from trade shows) doing an I-pad version.
The cost of the download service is suprisingly low - provided you already are a full-price Jepp subscriber for the applicable geographical area i.e. about 2500 quid for all of "Europe"
There is no cheap way to do this stuff, if you want Jepp. And if you don't want Jepp, you can buy that Irex e-book reader and download the free EAD plates....
Maybe Jepp UK is not aware of what Jepp USA is doing?
In fairness to Jepp, they have no way to cut prices for a different delivery mechanism, because "IFR is IFR" and it's all the same whether in a PA28 or a B747. In theory they could produce plates without Cat C/D data but it would be daft for them to duplicate their database maintenance effort for the 4-digit number of European IFR pilots - most of whom get free plates anyway.
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Jepp UK(Germany actually) are fully aware of what the US are doing with SolidFX. I have the new solidFX unit sat in front of me and it is not a bad bit of kit, but is expensive and limited in functionality. Something like an iPad adds considerable value add over the SolidFX.
Jepp will sell the data to anyone, but they have to demonstrate that they have a containable platform to prevent sharing of data. The closed nature of the iPad makes it a viable proposition and why they are prepared to enter into negotiation.
Jepp make there money from selling the data not developing the software, they have clearly stated that they would support as many platforms as possible if the platform meets the security and manageability requirements.
I actually think this is quite an exciting time and we could be starting to see the EFB develop into something useful. Devices like the iPad open up a realistic path to this data and should not be discounted so readily.
Jepp will sell the data to anyone, but they have to demonstrate that they have a containable platform to prevent sharing of data. The closed nature of the iPad makes it a viable proposition and why they are prepared to enter into negotiation.
Jepp make there money from selling the data not developing the software, they have clearly stated that they would support as many platforms as possible if the platform meets the security and manageability requirements.
I actually think this is quite an exciting time and we could be starting to see the EFB develop into something useful. Devices like the iPad open up a realistic path to this data and should not be discounted so readily.
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But I don't get the whole Jeppesen thing. Jeppesen obviously gets the app plates from each countries individual equivalent to the CAA, right? Probably for free. So why not as a competitor go directly to the CAA's of this world and get the plates and bypass the whole Jeppesen overpriced madness?