Like driving a car
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As we've gone off onto currency.. currency is not just hours either, you can fly a lot of hours that gain you nothing, or less hours that work you hard.
The problem with aviation is that it's difficult to set absolute rules (if you want them to be useful). You need to be honest with yourself about your ability at any given time, and self regulate - take responsibility. Which is not a popular concept in today's society, there has to be a rule, and someone to blame for everything (and in saying that, suprisingly I'm not an old git!)
For example, of late I've flown something around .5 just about every weekend for the last 2 months in various tailwheel aerobats. My handling skills are pretty well practised. My nav is more questionable, but it's not a lot of hours. 8 months ago I flew 40hrs in 4 weeks round the outback of australia in a C172.. with mostly 4hr legs my handling wasn't that hot. My nav was (fortunately) doing pretty well!
The problem with aviation is that it's difficult to set absolute rules (if you want them to be useful). You need to be honest with yourself about your ability at any given time, and self regulate - take responsibility. Which is not a popular concept in today's society, there has to be a rule, and someone to blame for everything (and in saying that, suprisingly I'm not an old git!)
For example, of late I've flown something around .5 just about every weekend for the last 2 months in various tailwheel aerobats. My handling skills are pretty well practised. My nav is more questionable, but it's not a lot of hours. 8 months ago I flew 40hrs in 4 weeks round the outback of australia in a C172.. with mostly 4hr legs my handling wasn't that hot. My nav was (fortunately) doing pretty well!
Halfbaked, your arithmetic presupposes that I can fly during any daylight during the year. In reality, I have a Monday to Friday job, and can only occassionally fly during the week. Therefore, available days to fly decreases by 71% immediately. And as we all know, weekend weather is rubbish. Or at least seems that way.
I say again; I bet most PPLs are in a similar situation to me. VFR only, weekend usually, would like to do more, but financial/family/other constraints make it difficult. 50 hours for good currency? Rubbish. Or there are a lot of very unsafe flyers out there.
I say again; I bet most PPLs are in a similar situation to me. VFR only, weekend usually, would like to do more, but financial/family/other constraints make it difficult. 50 hours for good currency? Rubbish. Or there are a lot of very unsafe flyers out there.
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Interesting one this.
I am almost retired,have a share in an aircraft that is near home and available almost whenever I want it.
Do not have any other committements apart from all the things I like doing besides flying.
Wife totally understanding,money side is OK.
BUT
I only fly 20-30 hours a year,would probably like to do a bit more ,say 50 hrs,but weather and other things sometimes get in the way.
I'm happy with this.
I had my bi-ennial yesterday in borderline VFR conditions,the GPS fell off it's bracket,landed on the rear shelf so no danger,but it certainly sharpened up my nav,or lack of it.
The instructor sat in the front,so could not see compass or balance ball,but could see speed and rpm.
Did steep turns and stalls OK,45 degree turns,probabaly the limit with 65 hp.
Did the worst landing in 4 yrs,but I've not had a passenger in 4 years,it showed up in poor performance,me and Cub
I reckon for lowish hours pilots the odd trip with an instructor would not be a bad thing.
Lister
I am almost retired,have a share in an aircraft that is near home and available almost whenever I want it.
Do not have any other committements apart from all the things I like doing besides flying.
Wife totally understanding,money side is OK.
BUT
I only fly 20-30 hours a year,would probably like to do a bit more ,say 50 hrs,but weather and other things sometimes get in the way.
I'm happy with this.
I had my bi-ennial yesterday in borderline VFR conditions,the GPS fell off it's bracket,landed on the rear shelf so no danger,but it certainly sharpened up my nav,or lack of it.
The instructor sat in the front,so could not see compass or balance ball,but could see speed and rpm.
Did steep turns and stalls OK,45 degree turns,probabaly the limit with 65 hp.
Did the worst landing in 4 yrs,but I've not had a passenger in 4 years,it showed up in poor performance,me and Cub
I reckon for lowish hours pilots the odd trip with an instructor would not be a bad thing.
Lister
Or there are a lot of very unsafe flyers out there.
I reckon for lowish hours pilots the odd trip with an instructor would not be a bad thing.
G
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I say again; I bet most PPLs are in a similar situation to me. VFR only, weekend usually, would like to do more, but financial/family/other constraints make it difficult.
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No,say more often,I spoke to my instructor after the trip,he said I didn't need it but would do it if I wanted.
He is CFI where I learned to fly.
I do,but the Cub is difficult with the passenger in front and not much point doing it in a PA28,or maybe there is?
That is what I learned in.
Lister
He is CFI where I learned to fly.
I do,but the Cub is difficult with the passenger in front and not much point doing it in a PA28,or maybe there is?
That is what I learned in.
Lister
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Getting back on topic....
Having the confidence/skill/capability/comptency to fly is, from a learning perspective, like many other activities - and the driving a car one is actullay quite a reasonable one. If you study the psychology of learning you'll discover four phases - starting with unconscious incompetence (that's where you didn't even know what you needed to do, let alone be able to do it - so the first time you sit in an aeroplane you may not even know what a trimmer, elevator, aileron, etc. is). Next is conscious incompetence (you now realise that you need to maintain attitude to keep a constant speed), then is conscious competence (you can keep to a speed, heading and height but have to work hard at it). Finally their is unconcious competence (you're now able to do things without thinking about it, e.g. roll onto a heading whilst keeping the airplane in balanced flight).
Going back to the example of the car - try to remember your first driving lesson....for many it was probably "Mirror, signal, clutch down, into first, mirror a bit more, ease on the gas pedal, look in the mirror again, let the handbrake off, press the gas pedal a bit more, look in the mirror....". Now you can probably drive around a roundabout, change gear, indicate, glance in the rear view mirror and change the station on the radio...all at the same time. That's because a lot of the stuff is now almost automatic and you don't need to consciously think about it. You'll reach this stage in flying too when some things are automatic and this frees up capacity for the brain to deal with stuff that you're not yet at the level of doing automatically. Now, the more often you practice stuff, the more you're able to do unconsciously (FYI: this doesn't mean not thinking about it, it simply means that the brain is bypassing the conscious level). That enables your brain to take on an increased level of complexity/workload, etc. more easily. In turn, when you do the more complex stuff part of that becomes automatic and so that frees up capacity to do more.....etc, etc.
Having the confidence/skill/capability/comptency to fly is, from a learning perspective, like many other activities - and the driving a car one is actullay quite a reasonable one. If you study the psychology of learning you'll discover four phases - starting with unconscious incompetence (that's where you didn't even know what you needed to do, let alone be able to do it - so the first time you sit in an aeroplane you may not even know what a trimmer, elevator, aileron, etc. is). Next is conscious incompetence (you now realise that you need to maintain attitude to keep a constant speed), then is conscious competence (you can keep to a speed, heading and height but have to work hard at it). Finally their is unconcious competence (you're now able to do things without thinking about it, e.g. roll onto a heading whilst keeping the airplane in balanced flight).
Going back to the example of the car - try to remember your first driving lesson....for many it was probably "Mirror, signal, clutch down, into first, mirror a bit more, ease on the gas pedal, look in the mirror again, let the handbrake off, press the gas pedal a bit more, look in the mirror....". Now you can probably drive around a roundabout, change gear, indicate, glance in the rear view mirror and change the station on the radio...all at the same time. That's because a lot of the stuff is now almost automatic and you don't need to consciously think about it. You'll reach this stage in flying too when some things are automatic and this frees up capacity for the brain to deal with stuff that you're not yet at the level of doing automatically. Now, the more often you practice stuff, the more you're able to do unconsciously (FYI: this doesn't mean not thinking about it, it simply means that the brain is bypassing the conscious level). That enables your brain to take on an increased level of complexity/workload, etc. more easily. In turn, when you do the more complex stuff part of that becomes automatic and so that frees up capacity to do more.....etc, etc.
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Mmmm, as Bose X points out, I'm not treating flying as casually as driving. However with sufficient experience, even if there is significantly more to learn with flying vs driving and more checks, more skill, more attention to detail, more planning etc, those tasks should be come automated and routine with enough practice. So that everything inc the prep work in going flying is as comfortable as getting in a car and driving.
So does that level of comfort ever happen with private pilots?
So does that level of comfort ever happen with private pilots?
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So does that level of comfort ever happen with private pilots?
There are flights (in my case local aerobatics sorties) which I undertake almost as casually as hopping in my car for the drive to work. Prepping for the flight (weather, notams, squawks, W&B, navplan, flightplan) takes less than 15 minutes, preflight another 5, I hop in, strap in, do the checks and go. It's all routine. Just like driving to work - you've done it so often that it doesn't require a lot of conscious thought. Just concentration.
But there are also flights that do take a lot of conscious preparation - in some cases multiple days worth of preparation weighing the different routes against one another, checking and rechecking fuel requirements, fuel stops, PPR, PNR, customs requirements, survival equipment, weather limitations etc. Likewise, there are car journeys that take more forethought. Long journeys in rental cars in foreign countries, at night and in bad weather conditions come to mind.
hell I'm sure the CAA did their own tests to determine the magic 12 hrs.
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Reportedly, the bizzare "12 hours in the 2nd of the two years" bit came from the German delegate to JAA.
I've never heard of an explanation, but it is a stupid rule because basically what happens is that Joe Bloggs gets his new PPL, and realises he doesn't have to fly at all for 23+ months, so he doesn't bother with keeping current, and obviously after 23 months he will have forgotten what a plane looks like, so he packs it in.
6 hours per year would have made far more sense.
Of course 6hrs/year is not enough, because even taking it most charitably in currency terms (flying 30 mins every month i.e. 10 mins taxi, 15 mins airborne, 5 mins taxi) is no good.
I suspect there are many pilots who do have very poor currency. I am sure most of them know it and they stick to very simple flights. Or maybe some fly as passengers, which they can't log but it is still very good for them. Cost sharing is a big thing on the PPL scene.
I've never heard of an explanation, but it is a stupid rule because basically what happens is that Joe Bloggs gets his new PPL, and realises he doesn't have to fly at all for 23+ months, so he doesn't bother with keeping current, and obviously after 23 months he will have forgotten what a plane looks like, so he packs it in.
6 hours per year would have made far more sense.
Of course 6hrs/year is not enough, because even taking it most charitably in currency terms (flying 30 mins every month i.e. 10 mins taxi, 15 mins airborne, 5 mins taxi) is no good.
I suspect there are many pilots who do have very poor currency. I am sure most of them know it and they stick to very simple flights. Or maybe some fly as passengers, which they can't log but it is still very good for them. Cost sharing is a big thing on the PPL scene.
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Don't worry too much. It will almost certainly never be like driving your car, even when you are very current. Many years ago when I flew piston singles I could drag one out of the hangar, fire it up and fly off in almost as many minutes as it has taken me to write this piece. But my planning started as I got out of bed and continued on my drive to the club. Was it windy? What was the cloudbase? Fuel requirements - Visibility - Thermals - wave (unlikely) - winch cable position - local ATC etc. were all considered. I had, I suppose 300 hours in singles by this time and a 1,000 hours gliding. But as no time did I ever think of it like a car. And whenever I went somewhere new, I used to plan and prepare for the transit and arrival, just like you probably do now for every flight. That's the learning process.
For now, you have to trust your instructor's judgement and take a certain amount of comfort in that 1. You won't be put up for test until you are ready and 2. The test will be just that, a test. To pass, you will prove to the examiner that you can fly to the required standard. And even once you pass, you'll still find that there are many things which you are uncertain about. So you'll still be getting advice from instructors and others, all the time you are flying.
PM
For now, you have to trust your instructor's judgement and take a certain amount of comfort in that 1. You won't be put up for test until you are ready and 2. The test will be just that, a test. To pass, you will prove to the examiner that you can fly to the required standard. And even once you pass, you'll still find that there are many things which you are uncertain about. So you'll still be getting advice from instructors and others, all the time you are flying.
PM
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IO540 is right. There are a lot of pilots out there with poor currency, but they are not all PPLs. I've watched senior management pilots with thousands of hours balls up the simplest task because they spend too much time flying a desk and not enough time flying an aircraft. In fact some of them I wouldn't trust to fly my family despite all their time and qualifications. When I hopped the fence to desk and flying I was lucky enough to have my own aeroplane and the time to sharpen up some basic flying skills which had become horribly blunted by years of 2 crew and high tech.
During that phase I flew a lot with a PPL instructor friend, he gave me a piece of advice which I pass on to other pilots I work with and PPLs I fly with. As I drive away from the hangar I review the flight and what I have learned from it, if I feel I haven't learned anything then I've missed something, possibly quite serious, but most likely very minor, in which case I haven't been paying enough attention.
I've got 12 400 hours and a decade and a bit left working, I'm still learning, when a PPL gets his new license the real learning begins. Sadly often the learning stops quite quickly because he gives up. In the airlines line pilots hoover up information from all sources added to the fact that they fly a lot and so their theoretical knowledge expands exponentially. I'm a firm believer in PPLs sharing trips and using that time in a similar way, ie to learn from each other, and then debrief at the end of a trip and seriously examine how each other runs a flight, their cockpit management and individual knowledge. The £100 cup of coffee can then have a serious motive.
The only pilot allowed to fly my aeroplane apart from me is a 500 hr ppl, who is one of the best pilots I've ever watched, he and I often fly together and I enjoy his critiques of my flying and he takes my critiques of his with humour and good grace.
During that phase I flew a lot with a PPL instructor friend, he gave me a piece of advice which I pass on to other pilots I work with and PPLs I fly with. As I drive away from the hangar I review the flight and what I have learned from it, if I feel I haven't learned anything then I've missed something, possibly quite serious, but most likely very minor, in which case I haven't been paying enough attention.
I've got 12 400 hours and a decade and a bit left working, I'm still learning, when a PPL gets his new license the real learning begins. Sadly often the learning stops quite quickly because he gives up. In the airlines line pilots hoover up information from all sources added to the fact that they fly a lot and so their theoretical knowledge expands exponentially. I'm a firm believer in PPLs sharing trips and using that time in a similar way, ie to learn from each other, and then debrief at the end of a trip and seriously examine how each other runs a flight, their cockpit management and individual knowledge. The £100 cup of coffee can then have a serious motive.
The only pilot allowed to fly my aeroplane apart from me is a 500 hr ppl, who is one of the best pilots I've ever watched, he and I often fly together and I enjoy his critiques of my flying and he takes my critiques of his with humour and good grace.
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I actually wonder how many BA/Virgin/Whatever captains are members of a flying club or have access to small aircraft? It'd be interesting to know.
How many fly VFR at all during a year? Just like IFR currency, I bet you many of them wouldn't know what to do with a VFR map and a C172...
How many fly VFR at all during a year? Just like IFR currency, I bet you many of them wouldn't know what to do with a VFR map and a C172...
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I know several bus drivers (F/O's and Capts), covering the entire Boeing range and quite a few Airbus varieties too, who fly gliders and tugs. I'd certainly feel more confident knowing that one of them is at the pointy end of anything I'm a passenger in as they at least know how to fly and deal with unusual situations.
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I've only just passed my skills test and haven't even sent off my licence application yet, so treat my suggestion with suitable caution... but I remember a similar feeling about 30 hours in coupled with being suddenly unable to land well. Started worrying about PFL and EFATO in particular. So I figured that, although I couldn't predict the exact altitude or environment for an emergency, I could do a lot to make sure the basic routine was firmly embedded in my mind. Although handling is quite different, I used a sim on my PC to rehearse the drill from various heights in various wimd conditions, and kept doing it until I had no problem remembering the basic procedures. Then asked my instructor to take me out for some emergency practice and I was amazed at how much more confident I was. Because I wasn't preoccupied trying to remember what to do I could concentrate on 1) handling the plane (which flew much better than the sim!) and 2) adapting to the actual situation. Might be worth trying something similar?
Pompey till I die
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From my own POV
15 hours - I wondered if I'd ever get the hang of this
20 hours - felt comfortable I could fly straight & level, take off, land
45 hours - got my PPL felt comfortable going out for an hour and laning at my airfield
55 hours - felt comfortable landing on grass
65 hours - felt comfortable going to an airfield I hadn't visited before
75 hours - felt comfortable going to a known foreign airfield like LFAT
85 hours - felt comfortable doing international trips
100 hours - felt comfortable doing longer trips, like 3hours flying
I was chatting to an instructor who said that 100 hours was a nice time because you started to feel comfortable actually flying places and doing things.
I've now taken a break whilst I get married and I have to pay for a wedding.
I will start again in August. I'll then start pushing further into foreigh countries and get more foreign flying under my belt.
20 hours - felt comfortable I could fly straight & level, take off, land
45 hours - got my PPL felt comfortable going out for an hour and laning at my airfield
55 hours - felt comfortable landing on grass
65 hours - felt comfortable going to an airfield I hadn't visited before
75 hours - felt comfortable going to a known foreign airfield like LFAT
85 hours - felt comfortable doing international trips
100 hours - felt comfortable doing longer trips, like 3hours flying
I was chatting to an instructor who said that 100 hours was a nice time because you started to feel comfortable actually flying places and doing things.
I've now taken a break whilst I get married and I have to pay for a wedding.
I will start again in August. I'll then start pushing further into foreigh countries and get more foreign flying under my belt.
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Flying vs. Driving???
I fly 75 - 100 hours per year - more than some less than others, I local flight over well trod ground in my own aircraft, pretty comfortable about that - quick pref-light, notams, weather, temps stabilised, pax briefed and off we go. But that is still a lot more than I would do for my drive to work (get in, turn key, drive).
I drive an hour each way to work plus other driving on the weekend, so call it 600 hours/ year (about 18,000 hours), so I guess I need a lot more flight time to get close to flying = driving. Even then, there is just more to think about and plan for when flying (either the aircraft is not that capable so clouds, turbulence, ice, etc. are a worry - or the aircraft is very capable and therefore big, expensive and complicated to operate)
I fly 75 - 100 hours per year - more than some less than others, I local flight over well trod ground in my own aircraft, pretty comfortable about that - quick pref-light, notams, weather, temps stabilised, pax briefed and off we go. But that is still a lot more than I would do for my drive to work (get in, turn key, drive).
I drive an hour each way to work plus other driving on the weekend, so call it 600 hours/ year (about 18,000 hours), so I guess I need a lot more flight time to get close to flying = driving. Even then, there is just more to think about and plan for when flying (either the aircraft is not that capable so clouds, turbulence, ice, etc. are a worry - or the aircraft is very capable and therefore big, expensive and complicated to operate)
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Flying vs driving ?
FFS....In terms of learning/development/skill building they're very similar (see earlier posting about the four phases of competence). In terms of complexity and risk, they're Worlds apart. So, one is easier to learn and to retain the necessary skills. The other has extra dimensions to complicate matters when things go wrong. Both can be a greal deal of fun when done well. Both can kill you (and others) if done badly.
FFS....In terms of learning/development/skill building they're very similar (see earlier posting about the four phases of competence). In terms of complexity and risk, they're Worlds apart. So, one is easier to learn and to retain the necessary skills. The other has extra dimensions to complicate matters when things go wrong. Both can be a greal deal of fun when done well. Both can kill you (and others) if done badly.
