Calculating Approach speed --additions
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"I'm sure glad you don't teach on any of my airplanes, because bent nose wheels and bent propellers are very expensive"
--mmmhhh what to make of this? I think I'll stick with the instructor who values mine and his life above the nosewheel of the aircraft rather than the owner who appears to favour the reverse.
"Ooooh, I like your skill delegate the decision making to someone else, then if it goes wrong you have someone else to blame! Cunning"
--And I bet you further delegate your decision making to those ridiculous weight and balance chart thingys. Come on they only designed and built the thing what do they know!
Personally I am with AK7274.
By the way are there any ex-military who can shine a light on the advise given concerning approach speeds in their basic trainers ?
TIM
--mmmhhh what to make of this? I think I'll stick with the instructor who values mine and his life above the nosewheel of the aircraft rather than the owner who appears to favour the reverse.
"Ooooh, I like your skill delegate the decision making to someone else, then if it goes wrong you have someone else to blame! Cunning"
--And I bet you further delegate your decision making to those ridiculous weight and balance chart thingys. Come on they only designed and built the thing what do they know!
Personally I am with AK7274.
By the way are there any ex-military who can shine a light on the advise given concerning approach speeds in their basic trainers ?
TIM
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"I'm sure glad you don't teach on any of my airplanes, because bent nose wheels and bent propellers are very expensive"
--mmmhhh what to make of this? I think I'll stick with the instructor who values mine and his life above the nosewheel of the aircraft rather than the owner who appears to favour the reverse.
--mmmhhh what to make of this? I think I'll stick with the instructor who values mine and his life above the nosewheel of the aircraft rather than the owner who appears to favour the reverse.
A competent flight instructor will ensure his students do not have an accident or incident of any kind period.
To suggest that breaking nose wheels and propellers is acceptable as long as you do not lose control in the air and spin in is an astounding comment.
Lets try this another way.
If this were driving a car would you have someone working for you who was only interested in the renters not smashing into highway over passes at high speed but beating the hell out of the car parking it was O.K.?
Excess speed at touchdown is a problem. Too low speed before roundout is a more serious problem. Excess speed on approach should not be carried to touchdown. You feel the difference in ground effect if the speed is too high. Hold off until the plane sinks.
The aim of excess speed on approach to some runways is to arrive over the threshhold at the correct speed.
And 05/23 at Inverness has no problems for GA types.
Aircraft mass, and wing section, affect handling on landing. On PA38 checkouts, I've been told by instructors to have a "Stabilised approach by 200 ft".
I don't disagree, but with a Jodel 1050, in gusty conditions, I don't feel it is stabilised until I have it half inside the hangar.
I have become airborne in a gust after landing on 23 Inverness, when I thought I was at a safe taxi speed. It took me longer to taxi to the hangar that day than it had taken me to fly 15 NM.
The aim of excess speed on approach to some runways is to arrive over the threshhold at the correct speed.
And 05/23 at Inverness has no problems for GA types.
Aircraft mass, and wing section, affect handling on landing. On PA38 checkouts, I've been told by instructors to have a "Stabilised approach by 200 ft".
I don't disagree, but with a Jodel 1050, in gusty conditions, I don't feel it is stabilised until I have it half inside the hangar.
I have become airborne in a gust after landing on 23 Inverness, when I thought I was at a safe taxi speed. It took me longer to taxi to the hangar that day than it had taken me to fly 15 NM.
And on a lighter note. As a low hours PPL I have learnt one thing from this thread.
Instructors are neither gods nor always right, if they can argue they will and at the expense of some one like me, who read these threads hoping to improve my flying skills. I am more confused now than I was at the start. Thanks for not a lot.
Instructors are neither gods nor always right, if they can argue they will and at the expense of some one like me, who read these threads hoping to improve my flying skills. I am more confused now than I was at the start. Thanks for not a lot.
Finally if conditions are bad don't force the approach. If you are feeling like things are not going right.... go around. Full power and a wings level slight nose up attitude will make things better pretty much regardless of the situation.
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Rans have a search for BEagles posts I am sure his background will answer your question.
As your in Cov why don't you go and have a hour or 2 with one of the FII's at Ontrack at Wellsbourne most of them are ex Mil QFI's or do the CRI course. You can debate the pro's and cons to your hearts content with them about a whole range of habits. I would throughly recommend them to anyone.
As your in Cov why don't you go and have a hour or 2 with one of the FII's at Ontrack at Wellsbourne most of them are ex Mil QFI's or do the CRI course. You can debate the pro's and cons to your hearts content with them about a whole range of habits. I would throughly recommend them to anyone.
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I'll have a sift thru BEagles posts for inspiration.
Thanks for the On-Track tip.I have the pleasure of their advice and teaching when flying at Wellesbourne Aviation ;they did the aero checkouts and a series of mid winter Flying lectures which were excellent.I was hoping to arrange my Revalidation Flight with them (not sure if they do them) due mid Summer, so I'll ask then and get the RAF view!
TIM
Thanks for the On-Track tip.I have the pleasure of their advice and teaching when flying at Wellesbourne Aviation ;they did the aero checkouts and a series of mid winter Flying lectures which were excellent.I was hoping to arrange my Revalidation Flight with them (not sure if they do them) due mid Summer, so I'll ask then and get the RAF view!
TIM
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If you have the hours/time/money do the CRI course you might make the cost back in reduced insurance premiums anyway.
Also exposure to other pilots habits does somewhat focus your opnions about certain things. Wait to you get your first +10knt approach ring twitcher with the aircraft floating halfway down the runway. If your lucky down the middle,if your unlucky with you wondering when to take it cause those runway lights are looking pretty bloody close.
But I think big piston's summary is the correct one.
O and it looks like a pretty normal day up north and west winds dropping though must be spring in the air.
EGPO 190750Z 25034G47KT 9999 -RA SCT022 BKN028 08/05 Q0987
EGPB 190750Z 21020KT 9999 FEW038 08/05 Q0986 TEMPO 24030G45KT
Also exposure to other pilots habits does somewhat focus your opnions about certain things. Wait to you get your first +10knt approach ring twitcher with the aircraft floating halfway down the runway. If your lucky down the middle,if your unlucky with you wondering when to take it cause those runway lights are looking pretty bloody close.
But I think big piston's summary is the correct one.
O and it looks like a pretty normal day up north and west winds dropping though must be spring in the air.
EGPO 190750Z 25034G47KT 9999 -RA SCT022 BKN028 08/05 Q0987
EGPB 190750Z 21020KT 9999 FEW038 08/05 Q0986 TEMPO 24030G45KT
Last edited by mad_jock; 19th Mar 2010 at 08:23.
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A fab spring day.........how about some X/W circuits.
A bent prop requires the engine to undergo "shock loading"
Now that is expensive!!!!!
Failure to do so may result on prop separation.
A bent prop requires the engine to undergo "shock loading"
Now that is expensive!!!!!
Failure to do so may result on prop separation.
Last edited by Robin400; 19th Mar 2010 at 09:22. Reason: addition
Two landings on grass runways, of about the same length, in nil wind. Would you use the same approach speed for both with a 20 knot wind, with some crosswind element from the left?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7t0y7C4krGQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmVQPCZBbXk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7t0y7C4krGQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmVQPCZBbXk
Last edited by Maoraigh1; 19th Mar 2010 at 21:39. Reason: Remove formatting data
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The two grass fields I have done the most flying into.
And yes I would, Donnoch I have taught students grass field there in 0 wind , gusty conditions and 20-30 knts of breeze. To be honest it's usually where I take them for want of something better to do for the hour with the instructor. And the approach speed is the same every time.
Cracking video's although I would say the first one you were spot on with your speed and the knockbain one you were a bit fast. Personally with the tommys if they hadn't got it on the deck before the first whit marker I maded them go around. Downhill wet/damp grass no thanks. The tommys used to stop just on the top of the hill when done properly the Jodel I thought has much better STOL performance. Although I ain't tail wheel so there might be some other factor I might not know about.
And yes I would, Donnoch I have taught students grass field there in 0 wind , gusty conditions and 20-30 knts of breeze. To be honest it's usually where I take them for want of something better to do for the hour with the instructor. And the approach speed is the same every time.
Cracking video's although I would say the first one you were spot on with your speed and the knockbain one you were a bit fast. Personally with the tommys if they hadn't got it on the deck before the first whit marker I maded them go around. Downhill wet/damp grass no thanks. The tommys used to stop just on the top of the hill when done properly the Jodel I thought has much better STOL performance. Although I ain't tail wheel so there might be some other factor I might not know about.
Last edited by mad_jock; 20th Mar 2010 at 04:50.
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Sorry I could find any light aircraft video of gusty approaches
Towards the end on approach you can see that he proberly has about 15 knts of xwind So the winds proberly about 35G45 at altitude. Dropping down to 20G30 at landing. The reason why I know his speed is stable ( Apart from he is a TRE) is because there is no attitude changes down approach. He just sits there playing with the gusts, letting the aircraft do the work. Gets it down kicks off the drift and doesn't float, no fannying around try to stop it drifting to the side or nose bobbing up and down trying to choose the moment to put the wheels down which is indicative of being to fast.
He will have chopped the put down so as not to scare young children
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Doesn't make any difference at all to your approach speed. I have a couple of hours in them but ain't qualified. And that was in your usual highland wx.
I don't know if you guys have to do something special about up hill grass landings. Never heard of anything said though. And if its not in your POH you don't need to do it.
Chuck would have brought up the subject if there was anything different about tail draggers or anything that floats.
I don't know if you guys have to do something special about up hill grass landings. Never heard of anything said though. And if its not in your POH you don't need to do it.
Chuck would have brought up the subject if there was anything different about tail draggers or anything that floats.
Last edited by mad_jock; 20th Mar 2010 at 06:56.
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"The reason why I know his speed is stable ( Apart from he is a TRE) is because there is no attitude changes down approach. He just sits there playing with the gusts, letting the aircraft do the work. Gets it down kicks off the drift and doesn't float, no fannying around try to stop it drifting to the side or nose bobbing up and down trying to choose the moment to put the wheels down which is indicative of being to fast.
He will have chopped the put down so as not to scare young children "
I dont understand this. What d'you mean by his speed is stable becaus he is a Type Rating Examiner? What do you mean by he is playing with the gusts?
Chopped the put down?
I hope if you instruct your briefings aren't like this.
He will have chopped the put down so as not to scare young children "
I dont understand this. What d'you mean by his speed is stable becaus he is a Type Rating Examiner? What do you mean by he is playing with the gusts?
Chopped the put down?
I hope if you instruct your briefings aren't like this.
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Chopped the put down was refering to cutting the video before touch down. And the reason why i use put down instead of touchdown is because it will be a consious choice when the wheels will touch. Instead of reacting to the gust he will just go with it allowing the aircraft to sink to make the touchdown.
If you watch the nose going down the approach you will see no huge attitude changes.
If the speed was hunting you would see the nose going up and down. You just see small corrections allowing the aircraft doing the work. Which is the way personally I know what the student is doing in relation to airspeed
And how does someones postings on pprune relate to thier lesson briefings?
Personally I use the ontrack viewfoils
If you watch the nose going down the approach you will see no huge attitude changes.
If the speed was hunting you would see the nose going up and down. You just see small corrections allowing the aircraft doing the work. Which is the way personally I know what the student is doing in relation to airspeed
And how does someones postings on pprune relate to thier lesson briefings?
Personally I use the ontrack viewfoils
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Nope still none the wiser!
TRE? Significance? Using sink from a gust? Scaring children? Who is Donnoch? Telling someone theyre too fast from a video with no ASI in view?
I dont get any of this its all a bit weird.
TRE? Significance? Using sink from a gust? Scaring children? Who is Donnoch? Telling someone theyre too fast from a video with no ASI in view?
I dont get any of this its all a bit weird.
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Before anyone else wonders if they've somehow left an aviation forum...
TRE: Type Rating Examiner.
Dornoch: nice grass strip near Inverness, free from BS.
Stable Approach: one where nothing changes significantly all the way down - best way to do it.
It's relatively easy to guess the correct speed from an approach where there's no significant attitude change and the aircraft lands in the touchdown zone. Excess speed would lead to the aircraft floating down the runway, while not enough tends to leave the aircraft a bit short of the threshhold if not corrected...
TRE: Type Rating Examiner.
Dornoch: nice grass strip near Inverness, free from BS.
Stable Approach: one where nothing changes significantly all the way down - best way to do it.
It's relatively easy to guess the correct speed from an approach where there's no significant attitude change and the aircraft lands in the touchdown zone. Excess speed would lead to the aircraft floating down the runway, while not enough tends to leave the aircraft a bit short of the threshhold if not corrected...
Your right about Knockbain being fast, but not at touchdown. Knockbain was aimed to roll to end, Dornoch to vacate for the Terminal and Fire Station. But I've lost a lot more than 0.3 of stall speed, along with a lot of height, at Knockbain, in the downdraft with a wind at Inverness 20+kts from about 200 direction.
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I didn't think you were fast on touchdown. From my limited experence of tailwails that can be a bit of a handfull.
Fire station and terminal at Donnoch??? Have they built that since October?
And I did realise you were going to the end. Personally if to much runway infront of me I do the same approach as usual but move my aiming point further down the runway.
The approach at Dornoch was a pleasure to watch and if you don't mind I might use it in briefings before taking people up there for the first time.
Fire station and terminal at Donnoch??? Have they built that since October?
And I did realise you were going to the end. Personally if to much runway infront of me I do the same approach as usual but move my aiming point further down the runway.
The approach at Dornoch was a pleasure to watch and if you don't mind I might use it in briefings before taking people up there for the first time.