If you were lost would you say so??
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<<If you have not found yourself for the length of time it would take you to reach CAS less 20 min (from the known point at the start of the exercise), turn everything on and ask for help if needed.>>
Not ultra-wise I suggest as that would almost certainly be the moment when Mr Murphy would ensure that your wireless didn't work.. Then what happens?
Not ultra-wise I suggest as that would almost certainly be the moment when Mr Murphy would ensure that your wireless didn't work.. Then what happens?
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In my early student solo flying i too became "uncertain of my position" heading towards Sherburn in Elmet, an assist from Humberside and then Church Fenton got me back. Brilliant set of guys and girls 
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Mad Jock.....Oi who let you out of your sand pit?
the moment when Mr Murphy would ensure that your wireless didn't work.. Then what happens?
maintained my height and kept looking for somewhere to land - there are lots of little airfields around there. D&D were wonderful as was Frank Marston at Duxford who realised that all really was NOT well and monitored my calls. I'm still here to prove that the system works.The full story is much longer than this but I'm not going to repeat it here.
There are a few hundred of them in the field right next to my house, and IMHO, looking at them from here, it would take a lot more than a few drinks
So-called 'lost procedure' is, frankly, an anachronsim. If you're "Errm, not exactly sure of my position", then admit it early and tell someone. Either on the frequency in use or, if necessary 121.5. Fast. ATC will soon sort you out; far better that than blundering into someone's airspace uninvited!
And send them a thank you-gram when you get back!
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I can remember many moons ago when I did my long solo cross country another student doing his.
We both got to the first landing airfield. My next location was west his was East.
He got lost called ATC and then lost the plot. He ignored all the steers he was given, had a row with ATC basically telling them that they were wrong and he now knew where he was.
He busted Lutons airspace on his merry way before ATC convinced him he was wrong. He eventually landed at a small airfield was given trauma treatment and collected by the club CFI.
He had to go back for further training and never achieved his PPL.
Another know it all Biggles who left a trail of chaos
At least he never landed in a tree
Pace
We both got to the first landing airfield. My next location was west his was East.
He got lost called ATC and then lost the plot. He ignored all the steers he was given, had a row with ATC basically telling them that they were wrong and he now knew where he was.
He busted Lutons airspace on his merry way before ATC convinced him he was wrong. He eventually landed at a small airfield was given trauma treatment and collected by the club CFI.
He had to go back for further training and never achieved his PPL.
Another know it all Biggles who left a trail of chaos
At least he never landed in a tree
Pace
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Oi granny he's allowed to take the piss. 
It comes of not submitting a report on my RT for the last 8 years.
Any luck I should be able to get pay back in the circuit.
Going to wear a crash helmit though as the last time I flew with a scottish area guy he took my head off the roof.
It comes of not submitting a report on my RT for the last 8 years.
Any luck I should be able to get pay back in the circuit.
Going to wear a crash helmit though as the last time I flew with a scottish area guy he took my head off the roof.
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Going to wear a crash helmit though as the last time I flew with a scottish area guy he took my head off the roof.
That flight not with 10W by any chance????
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Another know it all Biggles who left a trail of chaos
Panicked, he turned the aircraft around, entered the runway without looking and took off again. To this day I don't know if the story about the 737 on final having to go around because of him is true or not. But he did land on a major international airport instead of a sleepy uncontrolled municipal airport. And took off from an active runway without permission.
When he contacted Approach for flight following, instead of an acknowledgement, he got the "Ah, there you are Sonny. You've got pen and paper there? Because I'm going to give you a telephone number that I want you to call as soon as you've landed."
I finished my training course before he did so I don't know if he's now flying 737s or not. But for a while he was seriously thinking about quitting.
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121.5 is your friend.
Do not be afraid or ashamed to use it.
I did once,shortly after I qualified.
I took off into fading light (I got chatting for too long at the departure airfield) and my 12 minute hop from Elstree to Denham ended up with me in the Heathrow TMA in darkness and calling up 121.5.
I'd had the sense to turn North as soon as I realised I was lost and then sought help which was duly given without fuss. The only slight drama once they directed me back to Denham was that this was my first night landing!!
Do not be afraid or ashamed to use it.
I did once,shortly after I qualified.
I took off into fading light (I got chatting for too long at the departure airfield) and my 12 minute hop from Elstree to Denham ended up with me in the Heathrow TMA in darkness and calling up 121.5.
I'd had the sense to turn North as soon as I realised I was lost and then sought help which was duly given without fuss. The only slight drama once they directed me back to Denham was that this was my first night landing!!
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I am quite embarrassed to say that I got lost in my first solo cross country, but didn't hessitate one bit to contact 121.50
I was mainly nervous, which I think lead to aligning DI inaccurately, and it was quite hazy. My main worry was infringing Luton airspace, and when I saw an Easy Jet with its landing gear down, I knew something was wrong! London info was very helpful and in the end landed safely. Flew the leg back home with no problems despite the adrenaline rush. Luckily didn't fly into Luton CAS, and wasn't too far off track. Should have easily corrected myself with eyeballing inverse ratio method. Lots of lessons learned and didn't put me off navigation. At the end of the day London info are there to help you!
I was mainly nervous, which I think lead to aligning DI inaccurately, and it was quite hazy. My main worry was infringing Luton airspace, and when I saw an Easy Jet with its landing gear down, I knew something was wrong! London info was very helpful and in the end landed safely. Flew the leg back home with no problems despite the adrenaline rush. Luckily didn't fly into Luton CAS, and wasn't too far off track. Should have easily corrected myself with eyeballing inverse ratio method. Lots of lessons learned and didn't put me off navigation. At the end of the day London info are there to help you!
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But you have to know you're lost....
I was 15 years old, and the guest of a very generous owner pilot, who had taken me along for the mid winter trip to Florida in his C150. We were on our way back, at night, over the mountains of western Maryland. The many errors in this plan were not yet apparent to an enthusiast with so little experience as I had. We were tracking a VOR route north. DME? No! (it was a VFR 150!)
It was not too long before we strayed into cloud, only a few thousand feet over the tops of the mountains. The rather heavily loaded 150 was performing non-spectacularly. We had lots of fuel, so continuing north, away from the mountains seemed like the best plan. So we tracked VOR’s north. This worked very well, with one exception: In my eagerness, I never actually confirmed crossing any!
After a time, I announced that I had our location figured out. I could see the lights of the cities through the clouds, and thought that the form of no light which was Lake Ontario had me all oriented. Not quite…
We called up Hamilton tower, our intended destination, well out, and informed him of our intention to land. As it was now the middle of the night, and all wise Cessna pilots were safely tucked in their beds, we had the place to ourselves, and were cleared to land right then. So we headed down.
We broke through a now whispy layer of cloud, and lined things up. Sure enough, a beautiful runway lay ahead. We reported the runway in sight , and landed, as we had been cleared. Somewhere between the time we landed, and slowing down, I had this uneasy feeling, and looked back, out the now very useful Cessna 150 back window.
To my tremendous alarm, I saw a Boeing 737, who had landed behind us, and was catching up really fast! I instructed my buddy to turn off the runway. He told me that we were not yet at the taxiway. What ever I said next convinced him that was of very minor importance at this moment! My next recollection was that of a Boeing 737 wingtip passing remarkably close to us, as we crowded the left snowbank, and rolled to a stop. I also was keenly aware of the incredible amount of snow which is thrown up by the Boeing’s engines hard in reverse. We were not hit. Well done Boeing driver!
Now, what had just happened there? We looked over at the tower, and saw a red light. It did not flash or anything, it just stayed on – for minutes! So, we just stayed where we were. The Boeing left the scene. After some time, a yellow pickup truck drove up to us, on the door was written “Buffalo Airport Authority” [New York]. Things made a lot more sense now! We were told to follow him. We did.
When we parked. The driver told us, that the tower would like a phone call from the pilot. Once inside, my buddy made the call. It did not go well at all. He was being melted by an angry air traffic controller. Whatever transpired, resulted in him handing the phone to me. The stern voice told me “Do you understand that your friend is in a lot of trouble?”, “Yes” I replied. A few questions in, we got to the “How old are you son?” part. I reported my age. The controller rambled on for a while. Occasionally he asked my thoughts, as though they had value in this situation.
Along the course of the call, feeling a little put upon, I asked the question which had been growing in my mind: “We were squawking 1200, mode C the whole time, and were getting a return, did you not see us on radar?”. Well, that created a long pause….
He said “Put your friend back on the phone.” I complied. Whatever he said to my buddy then went not much farther than satisfying himself that we would not be flying again that night. The phone call ended. My buddy was completely perplexed at this point. We went to a hotel.
Nothing more was ever said to us. We took off the next day as though nothing had happened. I would have loved to be a fly on wall for the conversation between the controller, and the Boeing pilot. I bet there was some apologizing to the pilot. Bear in mind, this was decades before TCAS, so the Boeing pilot, who was certainly doing an instrument approach, would have completely relied on the radar controller for traffic separation. Oops!
It was not too long before we strayed into cloud, only a few thousand feet over the tops of the mountains. The rather heavily loaded 150 was performing non-spectacularly. We had lots of fuel, so continuing north, away from the mountains seemed like the best plan. So we tracked VOR’s north. This worked very well, with one exception: In my eagerness, I never actually confirmed crossing any!
After a time, I announced that I had our location figured out. I could see the lights of the cities through the clouds, and thought that the form of no light which was Lake Ontario had me all oriented. Not quite…
We called up Hamilton tower, our intended destination, well out, and informed him of our intention to land. As it was now the middle of the night, and all wise Cessna pilots were safely tucked in their beds, we had the place to ourselves, and were cleared to land right then. So we headed down.
We broke through a now whispy layer of cloud, and lined things up. Sure enough, a beautiful runway lay ahead. We reported the runway in sight , and landed, as we had been cleared. Somewhere between the time we landed, and slowing down, I had this uneasy feeling, and looked back, out the now very useful Cessna 150 back window.
To my tremendous alarm, I saw a Boeing 737, who had landed behind us, and was catching up really fast! I instructed my buddy to turn off the runway. He told me that we were not yet at the taxiway. What ever I said next convinced him that was of very minor importance at this moment! My next recollection was that of a Boeing 737 wingtip passing remarkably close to us, as we crowded the left snowbank, and rolled to a stop. I also was keenly aware of the incredible amount of snow which is thrown up by the Boeing’s engines hard in reverse. We were not hit. Well done Boeing driver!
Now, what had just happened there? We looked over at the tower, and saw a red light. It did not flash or anything, it just stayed on – for minutes! So, we just stayed where we were. The Boeing left the scene. After some time, a yellow pickup truck drove up to us, on the door was written “Buffalo Airport Authority” [New York]. Things made a lot more sense now! We were told to follow him. We did.
When we parked. The driver told us, that the tower would like a phone call from the pilot. Once inside, my buddy made the call. It did not go well at all. He was being melted by an angry air traffic controller. Whatever transpired, resulted in him handing the phone to me. The stern voice told me “Do you understand that your friend is in a lot of trouble?”, “Yes” I replied. A few questions in, we got to the “How old are you son?” part. I reported my age. The controller rambled on for a while. Occasionally he asked my thoughts, as though they had value in this situation.
Along the course of the call, feeling a little put upon, I asked the question which had been growing in my mind: “We were squawking 1200, mode C the whole time, and were getting a return, did you not see us on radar?”. Well, that created a long pause….
He said “Put your friend back on the phone.” I complied. Whatever he said to my buddy then went not much farther than satisfying himself that we would not be flying again that night. The phone call ended. My buddy was completely perplexed at this point. We went to a hotel.
Nothing more was ever said to us. We took off the next day as though nothing had happened. I would have loved to be a fly on wall for the conversation between the controller, and the Boeing pilot. I bet there was some apologizing to the pilot. Bear in mind, this was decades before TCAS, so the Boeing pilot, who was certainly doing an instrument approach, would have completely relied on the radar controller for traffic separation. Oops!
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I think I heard this conversation on Thursday. I was in the PA28 from Prestwick - Barton. Sounded very well handled on both sides and a good outcome! Its a nice feeling knowing there is always someone looking out for you!
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I recall not exactly getting lost once but having the pax inform me the tank cap was flapping in the breeze and water was streaming off the wing. The water was of course fuel. Ah thinks me slightly keen to get on the ground Lyneham looks the very best option. A quick call and they were more than happy to accomodate and almost immediately I called final. The ATCO couldnt have been better as he said we have put all the runway lights on, that should help you line up correctly - well you have guessed it, in my haste I was almost lined up on one of the very nearby runways which was most certainly not Lyneham. A very good lesson was learned. 
However much you want to be on the ground it is still worth checking it is the correct bit of ground.
PS Pace - nice one.
However much you want to be on the ground it is still worth checking it is the correct bit of ground.PS Pace - nice one.
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whereas the map reading method works only if
- VMC, and
- not much haze, and
- you fly over a feature-rich landscape
- you have chosen clear unambiguous waypoints, and
- your stopwatch is always wound up and restarted correctly, and
- you don't deviate from the planned route (things get a lot more involved if you do)
etc...
- VMC, and
- not much haze, and
- you fly over a feature-rich landscape
- you have chosen clear unambiguous waypoints, and
- your stopwatch is always wound up and restarted correctly, and
- you don't deviate from the planned route (things get a lot more involved if you do)
etc...
I was happy for a student to get lost so long as they found there location without any help. A part of the final nav ex's the student was to fly low level for 20nm then fly IF for 10-20mins conducting several turns and all the standard IF components (climbing/descending etc). I would then take them out from under the hood give them an engine failure. After completing the forced landing they were expected to find their location and take us home.
Call my harsh but I never had a problem handing them over for test and was more than happy to sign them out on a cross country flight.
Good to hear that a student has been taught not to be afraid of ATC/centre/info.
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I think I heard this conversation on Thursday. I was in the PA28 from Prestwick - Barton. Sounded very well handled on both sides and a good outcome! Its a nice feeling knowing there is always someone looking out for you!
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Oi granny he's allowed to take the piss.
I don't think you will have much trouble from that ATCO - unless you are going to be helping him get current again.
To be fair to the SCAT FISOs, it was a talk by one of them and someone from ScMil several years ago which gave me the confidence to call D&D as soon as I had problems. The oft repeated "CALL US EARLY!!! Please do not leave it to the last moment. We would much sooner sort out a minor problem than have to ask someone to go out and pick up the pieces" That, and their reassurance that nobody would get into trouble if they called 121.5 for something which eventually proved to be minor.
While flying training in the RAF, we were always told not to be too proud to call for a "training fix". However, pride dictated that it wasn't the done thing.
One day, on a rare CAVOK day, the course were sent off for general handling solos in an early stage of the course. On guard, one of the course was heard calling for a training fix, shortly followed by a
"Oi - that's my callsign and it's not me who's lost!"
Unfortunately, the perpetrator had a distinctive accent so it was obvious who he was. After a quick "chat'' from the flight commander about integrity, he was marched off to the bar to purchase a considerable quantity of beer for his course mates.
The lesson was, don't be too proud and don't delay and violate someones' airspace.
One day, on a rare CAVOK day, the course were sent off for general handling solos in an early stage of the course. On guard, one of the course was heard calling for a training fix, shortly followed by a
"Oi - that's my callsign and it's not me who's lost!"
Unfortunately, the perpetrator had a distinctive accent so it was obvious who he was. After a quick "chat'' from the flight commander about integrity, he was marched off to the bar to purchase a considerable quantity of beer for his course mates.
The lesson was, don't be too proud and don't delay and violate someones' airspace.
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Thank goodness the thread title has been corrected. I am far too polite to point out grammatical errors, even when they are driving me nuts!
