FAA in G-Reg abroad. Worrying development.

[Whopity]

ICAO Annex 1

1.2.1 Authority to act as a flight crew member
A person shall not act as a flight crew member of an aircraft
unless a valid licence is held showing compliance with the
specifications of this Annex and appropriate to the duties to be
performed by that person. The licence shall have been issued
by the State of Registry of that aircraft or by any other
Contracting State and rendered valid by the State of Registry
of that aircraft.
Note.— Article 29 of the Convention on International Civil
Aviation requires that the flight crew members carry their
appropriate licences on board every aircraft engaged in
international air navigation.

Art 62(1) renders the licence valid. The CAA does not confirm items of law, that's a matter for a Lawyer.

[mm_flynn]

Originally Posted by Whopity

The CAA does not confirm items of law, that's a matter for a Lawyer.

It is a tad disappointing when the law is so opaque the regulator can read it and conclude - 1 Yes it is OK, 2 No it is not OK, 3 - our validation rules for G-regs don't apply extraterritorially so you need to ask each country - all within 2 1/2 weeks.

The last one also begs the questions of which other rules any normal person would view as included in the extraterritorial provisions don't actually apply


PS - In this case the law seems crystal clear - just the CAA who seem a bit muddled.

[englishal]

This is making a bit of a mountain out of a molehill. I also don't see how the CAA can answer for foreign aviation authorities.

What I did (although it is irrelevant as I have both FAA & JAA licenses) is write to the various aviation authorities that concerned me - in my case it was the DGAC in France and Germany...I think I did a few more but can't remember which ones.

Anyway in each case they said "if the UK allow you to fly in their airspace, then we will too"....I'd just write to them (email) and get it in writing then keep it with you. They even said that all ratings were valid which raised an interesting point which was discussed several years ago - because the CAA validate an FAA IR for flight OCAS....how this translates to Euroland...

[mm_flynn]

Originally Posted by englishal

This is making a bit of a mountain out of a molehill. I also don't see how the CAA can answer for foreign aviation authorities.

There are a couple of key principles

1. Does a NAA have the authority to validate licences for world wide use in aircraft on their register - generally people assume this is true, however, the argument being made is that the CAA validation is only good in the UK (or where specifically accepted).
2. Is the UK CAA's process of validation ineffective globally because it is automatic and does not produce a validation document. As a follow on, does this ineffective process comply with their ICAO obligation to facilitate validation of other countries licences ( recall this obligation but don't have a reference to hand).
3. More generally, does the ANO apply to G-reg aircraft extraterritorially or not. The ANO says yes, the argument implies no. (Clearly, there are lots of regulations which I will call 'Airspace Regulation' which apply to all aircraft operating in a country). However, for example, would one expect US law or UK law to apply to the maintenance of a G-reg aircraft in the US? - and generally (and famously with a 3 engine BA 747 out of SFO) the general consensus seems to be it is the law of the country of register that applies in these airframe/licencing issues).

For me it is an interesting mole hill with regard to what does an NAA control in practice.

[IO540]

1. Does a NAA have the authority to validate licences for world wide use in aircraft on their register - generally people assume this is true, however, the argument being made is that the CAA validation is only good in the UK (or where specifically accepted).

The UK is the only place where the CAA definitely has the power to do so. Elsewhere, the local airspace owner could object.

1. Is the UK CAA's process of validation ineffective globally because it is automatic and does not produce a validation document. As a follow on, does this ineffective process comply with their ICAO obligation to facilitate validation of other countries licences ( recall this obligation but don't have a reference to hand).

Yes, there is such an obligation in ICAO.

1. More generally, does the ANO apply to G-reg aircraft extraterritorially or not. The ANO says yes, the argument implies no. (Clearly, there are lots of regulations which I will call 'Airspace Regulation' which apply to all aircraft operating in a country).

The ANO clearly can apply outside the UK. If you have under-age sex in say Thailand (or elsewhere but I gather Thailand is a popular destination for Westerners ) then you can get done for it when you come back to the UK.

1. However, for example, would one expect US law or UK law to apply to the maintenance of a G-reg aircraft in the US? - and generally (and famously with a 3 engine BA 747 out of SFO) the general consensus seems to be it is the law of the country of register that applies in these airframe/licencing issues).

That seems to be the universal principle on which ICAO is built. The State of Registry determines what privileges (if any) any given license (theirs or anybody else's) has on a plane on their register, and everybody else is supposed to respect that.

I even got exactly this from the CAA, in ~ 2003, when I asked them whether (as far as they are concerned) the IMCR is valid in an N-reg. They said they have no objection but it is up to the FAA (which is IMHO 100% correct). The FAA had no objection. Got all this in writing, too.

The other thing is that this stuff is very old and myself, or anybody I have ever spoken to, has ever heard of any problem with the above. And I am sure that if there was an issue, we would have heard of it by now. Loads of people have got FAA PPLs and are flying G-reg planes. Maybe not many on the club/rental scene but that's not suprising given the revelations in this thread... And over the years there would have been many insurance claims. And your paperwork is the first thing the insurer checks.

[Whopity]

You would not go to a Police Station to find out about the Law. Why would you expect the CAA to be any different? Their function is to enforce it not explain it!

Does a NAA have the authority to validate licences for world wide use in aircraft on their register

Yes because by virtue of the registration, the aircraft is effectively a little part of the UK. As there is nothing in the law to prohibit it the law applies wherever that little bit of the UK goes.

[IO540]

You would not go to a Police Station to find out about the Law

I think you mean that slightly tongue in cheek, Whopity I bet you most people would go to the local nick to ask about a point of law concerning whether their car is legal, or (for the Big Brother audience) whether it is legal to kick somebody's head in.

The other thing is that while there is a criminal law lawyer on every corner, and the yellow pages are packed with them, aviation lawyers are really rare, and AFAICT really expensive.

IMHO, the CAA has an obligation to give straight and accurate answers OR give no answers at all and email people back with a list of lawyers.

[englishal]

I did once have a letter from the CAA stating that my FAA certificate privileges could be exercised in a G reg aeroplane, including all ratings, without formality. They sent me the section from the ANO and the restrictions placed upon the IR. I'd assume this is good enough to act as a "validation" of the foreign license to show foreign authorities if ramp checked or to show a flight school / syndicate. If you write to them and ask a specific question they normally reply (though saying that they have yet to reply to my last email of 2 months ago - I'm expecting the "sorry for the delay in replying" letter soon ).

FTR one of our syndicate only has an FAA PPL for fixed wing and our current aeroplane is G reg (despite being a famous aviator who flew around the world non stop several years ago). It has never been an issue wrt insurance or flying to France.

[Whopity]

The CAA can tell you what the law says, and it certain cases give you an exemption from it in writing, but they are not allowed to give an interpretation because that is not necessarily the interpretation a court would place on it. I'd put Mr Plod in the same group.

It sounds to me as though they have given a straight and correct answer Art 62(1) says it all. Has any insurer actually failed to believe this? The odd ill informed CFI might.

[englishal]

but highlighted sections of the ANO which state what you can do, surely must be good enough....

[mm_flynn]

Originally Posted by Whopity

Yes because by virtue of the registration, the aircraft is effectively a little part of the UK. As there is nothing in the law to prohibit it the law applies wherever that little bit of the UK goes.

Except this thread is premised on the answer actually being either 'NO' or thar our CAA's process doesn't work world wide.

[Whopity]

WHY? What possible reason could there be for thinking that?

Perhaps the misunderstanding is that the CAAs jurisdiction does not go beyond the UK. That is true but as the aircraft is part of the UK then the CAAs jurisdiction continues within the aircraft, which enjoys overflight privileges subject to complying with the laws of the State over which it is flying. Those laws require that the pilot holds an ICAO licence, and it is the responsibility of the State of Registration to ensure this. In this case the UK CAA have done so.

[Flying Boat]

I do not profess to know what the law says in detail.

I do not profess to know what the law fully means.

I do however know about a case of a PPL going from CAA to FAA and still flying G Reg aircraft.

He was allowed to fly G Reg Aircraft by the CAA, he was allowed to fly them in UK airspace, but was instructed by the CAA to contact each European Authority in which country he wishes to fly a G Reg aircraft.

He did this, for example France responded in a few weeks, and he always flies with a copy of the letter for the authorities at that particular airfield.

Never under estimate the power of people of authority on an airfield; if they are not satisfied that you can legally fly the G Reg aircraft, you will not be allowed to fly, regardless of what you think, what you are told on this forum, what you are told by someone in an office and regardless what a lawyer says.

By the time you clear up the problem the aircraft could have been impounded for a few months.

If there is doubt there are guaranteed problems, because the people on the ground have the same questions as you do; but they can stop you.

Get a letter from each country you will want to fly to, it is not too much of a problem. Or, convert to a JAA licence then this is purely accademic.

Good Luck

FB

[Whopity]

but was instructed by the CAA to contact each European Authority in which country he wishes to fly a G Reg aircraft.

That simply shows that the Clerk at the other end didn't know what they were talking about.

[IO540]

He was allowed to fly G Reg Aircraft by the CAA, he was allowed to fly them in UK airspace, but was instructed by the CAA to contact each European Authority in which country he wishes to fly a G Reg aircraft.

He was taken for a ride.

Never under estimate the power of people of authority on an airfield; if they are not satisfied that you can legally fly the G Reg aircraft, you will not be allowed to fly, regardless of what you think, what you are told on this forum, what you are told by someone in an office and regardless what a lawyer says.

That's true but they could hassle you for no reason, because most of them are ex MacDonalds employees (or equivalent) who haven't got a clue anyway. 99% of them will be incapable of understanding anything on this topic.

That's why one needs to be fairly careful when flying in the 3rd world. Ask any grey-haired ex 707 cargo pilot and he will tell you a few stories

In Europe, this is simply not a known issue - once you have complied with the ever present piece of anal retention: PPR/PNR.

I guess one could print out article 62 and carry it, but I doubt anybody will ever want to see it. Unlike some other docs, like the certificate of free circulation for VAT around which there are more scary stories than one could tell.... like the N-reg TBM700 owner who landed at Tarbes (the factory, no less) and had to hand over the VAT, only to get it back some days (or weeks?) later. Can I confirm this? No, but based on some other stuff I've heard it is probably true. An EU citizen cannot fly an N-reg around the EU without this paperwork being straight.

[Flying Boat]

Exactly Whopity

The same as most people he will encounter (yourself excluded).

More importantly he will face these people in Europe and will not be able to win an arguement when stopped from departing from a regional airfield, unless he has someone of your knowledge and experience on board.
(Who can speak the language and quote their air law as well as CAA & ICAO).

Prevention is always better than cure, or in this case a winning legal arguement misunderstood by the masses.

I wish him good luck

[mm_flynn]

Originally Posted by Flying Boat

I wish him good luck

which is an indictment of the UK validation process. Most other countries have a sensible process with no ambiguity for validation which creates a piece of paper (or plastic) which will make sense to any of IO's burger flippers.

Originally Posted by Whopity

WHY? What possible reason could there be for thinking that?

The title of the thread, the CAA clerk responses, the 'be it on your head' views - all of these are based on the ANO validation not being valid or effective or being subject to random challenge at foreign airports.

I think it is a non-issue, have never heard of anyone coming to grief on this point and the ANO is very clear about the automatic validation process.

[RatherBeFlying]

All she would say was that nobody could state that as it was up to the individual country.

Absolutely correct, the CAA can not speak or answer for the actions or interpretations of any other NAA. As others have done, it is wisest to contact each NAA whose airspace you plan to use and carry their replies with you as that will be the only persuasive bit of paper to any inquiring authority over there.

And do not forget the VAT paperwork -- or bring lots of cash

[BackPacker]

In that case, the right question would be "Are you a state contracting to ICAO, and have you filed a difference against ICAO Annex I, para 1.2.1". If the answer is "Yes, we are and No, we have not" then you're good to go.

But I'm getting the feeling that for these sorts of discussions, particularly if you're getting ramp checked, there should be an ICAO "Language Proficiency in Legalese" before you're allowed to participate.

[ILOC]

I'm a little confused Whopity:

It sounds to me as though they have given a straight and correct answer Art 62(1) says it all. Has any insurer actually failed to believe this? The odd ill informed CFI might.

They told me I need explicit permission from each country I want to fly in. No insurer has refused to believe this but because the CFI and CAA examiner are remaining resolute (and now the CAA has executed a U-turn and is agreeing with them) the syndicate are insisting on something clear in writing from the CAA. Pointing them at the ANO and ICAO Annex just won't cut it when 2 of their most experienced members (and now apparently the CAA) are giving them a different interpretation.

But then you go on to say:

but was instructed by the CAA to contact each European Authority in which country he wishes to fly a G Reg aircraft.

That simply shows that the Clerk at the other end didn't know what they were talking about.

I don't see how both can be true? How can they have given a straight and correct answer to me saying I need permission from each country and then in the case where they instructed someone else to contact each country the clerk doesn't know what they are talking about? It is essentially the same advice.