Next step up from a Warrior?
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Next step up from a Warrior?
I've got just over 100 hours on PA28 Cherokee and a Warrior and IMCr and I'm also in a group, so planning to put in circa 50 or so hours this year.
My question is what is the next natural step for someone with my hours - and from there on upwards?
I've read posts like "whats a good fast SEP" and answers always come back as either an Arrow, Saratoga, Lance, Bonanza, TB20, something like that. But then there are threads about Malibu Mirage, TBM 700, Pilatus etc. with the comments "but you have to have VERY deep pockets".
I'm not suggesting for one minute that i'm going to trade up to 200 kt + turbo prop from my fixed gear SEP but its nice to have something to aim for!
So, what would folk's suggestions be for trading up? 50 - 100 hours on a complex PA28 - or on a 6 cylinder Saratoga / Lance, then 500hrs total before a Malibu Mirage? What about for cost - and what does "VERY deep pockets" mean in real terms, servicing, fuel p/h, (and gph) etc. for the various types?
What I'm looking for ultimately is something to comfortably fit myself, wife and 2 kids in (plus some baggage) to head off to South of France, Cornwall, Devon etc. and would prefer something a little sportier than a Warrior but also that is relatively frugal?
For info, I'm not a millionaire (yet!)!
A very open ended question I know!
thanks.
PS forgot to say, would want low wing too.
My question is what is the next natural step for someone with my hours - and from there on upwards?
I've read posts like "whats a good fast SEP" and answers always come back as either an Arrow, Saratoga, Lance, Bonanza, TB20, something like that. But then there are threads about Malibu Mirage, TBM 700, Pilatus etc. with the comments "but you have to have VERY deep pockets".
I'm not suggesting for one minute that i'm going to trade up to 200 kt + turbo prop from my fixed gear SEP but its nice to have something to aim for!
So, what would folk's suggestions be for trading up? 50 - 100 hours on a complex PA28 - or on a 6 cylinder Saratoga / Lance, then 500hrs total before a Malibu Mirage? What about for cost - and what does "VERY deep pockets" mean in real terms, servicing, fuel p/h, (and gph) etc. for the various types?
What I'm looking for ultimately is something to comfortably fit myself, wife and 2 kids in (plus some baggage) to head off to South of France, Cornwall, Devon etc. and would prefer something a little sportier than a Warrior but also that is relatively frugal?
For info, I'm not a millionaire (yet!)!
A very open ended question I know!
thanks.
PS forgot to say, would want low wing too.
Last edited by VMC-on-top; 8th Feb 2010 at 20:48.
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Perhaps a Mooney 201 (M20J)?
Why do I own a Mooney? - Australian Mooney Pilots Association
The majority of my hours have been in a Cessna 182. I have about 70 hours on type. I've been also wondering about what the next logical step would be. Given that a Cirrus SR is out of budget reach, the Mooney 201 looks promising. Quicker than the C182 and better on fuel.
I don't know what their general availability is like in Europe though.
Why do I own a Mooney? - Australian Mooney Pilots Association
The majority of my hours have been in a Cessna 182. I have about 70 hours on type. I've been also wondering about what the next logical step would be. Given that a Cirrus SR is out of budget reach, the Mooney 201 looks promising. Quicker than the C182 and better on fuel.
I don't know what their general availability is like in Europe though.
Moderator
As much as I really like Piper products, while undertaking the approval of a repair on a late 70"s Piper twin, I have encountered an alarming situation. Critical left and right primary structure parts, which are very simple single aluminum pieces, were found to be corroded, and not airworthy. Piper no longer makes available replacements for these parts, and is unwilling to support the field repair of the aircraft (and I have the email from Piper to prove it). In the absence of approved replacement parts, or aftermarket parts (which do not exist), the only option is a very expensive engineering and manufacturing exercise to repair the aircraft. This does not offer an assurance that the aircraft will ever return to the air - this could be the end for this particular aircraft. (Added to that, is the fact that this part is the subject of a Piper Service Bulleting for cracking, which would also require replacement!)
I don't know which aircraft Piper still supports, but the talk I had with their Tech Support person suggests that older aircraft made by Piper are not favoured for this support.
Before I bought a Piper, I'd be having a very thorough prepurchase inspection completed, with a real eye for corrosion, and the possible future need for replacement parts - they just might not be available!
It's long been known that aircraft manuafacturer's are not completely keen on their "legacy" aircraft remaining in service indefinately. It's hard for them to come right out and try to ground the aircraft, but it's much more easy and subtle to just stop making replacement parts available...
I love older aircraft, but it's time for prospective owners to do their homework!
I don't know which aircraft Piper still supports, but the talk I had with their Tech Support person suggests that older aircraft made by Piper are not favoured for this support.
Before I bought a Piper, I'd be having a very thorough prepurchase inspection completed, with a real eye for corrosion, and the possible future need for replacement parts - they just might not be available!
It's long been known that aircraft manuafacturer's are not completely keen on their "legacy" aircraft remaining in service indefinately. It's hard for them to come right out and try to ground the aircraft, but it's much more easy and subtle to just stop making replacement parts available...
I love older aircraft, but it's time for prospective owners to do their homework!
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How often are you going to take the family to France, annually? And how often are you just flying about for an hour or so to have fun?
You might be better off renting, or even flying commercially, for those occasions you need to take the whole family to France, and get something sporty for the weekends when you want to stay close to home.
You might be better off renting, or even flying commercially, for those occasions you need to take the whole family to France, and get something sporty for the weekends when you want to stay close to home.
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I don't know what you mean Billiebob. Anything is a step up from a Warrior!
And my first thought for the 'wife and kids and a bit of baggage to the south of France' was Jodel D.140. Do the trip non-stop pretty much.
I'm fairly sure a newish Robin would do it too.
The Cessna Cardinal 177RG would be my third choice after the Jodel and Robin. But still way ahead of the other types mentioned.
The 177 was the first 'spamcan'(Cessna/Piper/Mooney/Beech) to 'impress' me.
But impress is a relative word. It uses 200hp, cs prop and retractable gear to go only a little faster than the Robin/Jodel so it still loses points on economy.
Still, it's a nicer ride than the Piper offerings.
And my first thought for the 'wife and kids and a bit of baggage to the south of France' was Jodel D.140. Do the trip non-stop pretty much.
I'm fairly sure a newish Robin would do it too.
The Cessna Cardinal 177RG would be my third choice after the Jodel and Robin. But still way ahead of the other types mentioned.
The 177 was the first 'spamcan'(Cessna/Piper/Mooney/Beech) to 'impress' me.
But impress is a relative word. It uses 200hp, cs prop and retractable gear to go only a little faster than the Robin/Jodel so it still loses points on economy.
Still, it's a nicer ride than the Piper offerings.
Last edited by Miserlou; 8th Feb 2010 at 23:11.
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Dr 400-180
The Robin DR400-180 seems to fit the mission profile perfectly.
With 4 seats filled it will get to the other end of France/Nothern Spain from Oxfordshire with only one stop, or if the suplimentry fuel tank is fitted it will do the trip non-stop with two pepole and bags.
The Robin will do this from a runway far shorter than any of the fixed pitch offerings from the USA and 10 to 15 Kt faster in the cruise.
The maintenance is at fixed gear and fixed pitch prop prices, added to this the Robin structural repair manual is writen in such a way that you will never get into the situation that pilot DAR describes above.
Added to this the Robin is much more fun to fly and you can keep a far better lookout with those big windows.
The smaller American retractables dont offer a big enough speed and payload advantage to be worth the extra cost to be worth moving to, It requires a jump to the upper end of the SEP range to get a big enough jump in performance above the Robin to be worth doing.
With 4 seats filled it will get to the other end of France/Nothern Spain from Oxfordshire with only one stop, or if the suplimentry fuel tank is fitted it will do the trip non-stop with two pepole and bags.
The Robin will do this from a runway far shorter than any of the fixed pitch offerings from the USA and 10 to 15 Kt faster in the cruise.
The maintenance is at fixed gear and fixed pitch prop prices, added to this the Robin structural repair manual is writen in such a way that you will never get into the situation that pilot DAR describes above.
Added to this the Robin is much more fun to fly and you can keep a far better lookout with those big windows.
The smaller American retractables dont offer a big enough speed and payload advantage to be worth the extra cost to be worth moving to, It requires a jump to the upper end of the SEP range to get a big enough jump in performance above the Robin to be worth doing.
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Phill C – on paper, the Mooney does it all so why does it have such a bad reuputation for being cramped? I’m 6ft 1in, so would I comfortably fit into it? Is it because the height and width of the cabin are ok but the shape is very curved, such that hitting one’s head is a definite possibility?
Backpacker – We currently go 3 or 4 times a year but would go much more if we had the means to do so. Yes, flying commercially is an answer, but it means getting to the airport at stupid o’clock to catch a decent flight, getting kids and baggage all the way through check in etc and the humiliation of taking clothing off etc. when going through security. Call me a snob (and I know I am!) but one of the reasons that I got into flying in the first place was to “go places” so that I didn’t need to sit next to some old dear going on about her bunions and piles!
Miserlou – Cardinal 177RG = high wing, no thanks.
A and C – have considered a Robin previously but looked at it as more of a sideways step? Cost of purchase wise though, aren’t there more Pipers etc, out there?
No-one has mentioned Saratoga, Lance, Malibu? Are they just not worth considering?
Backpacker – We currently go 3 or 4 times a year but would go much more if we had the means to do so. Yes, flying commercially is an answer, but it means getting to the airport at stupid o’clock to catch a decent flight, getting kids and baggage all the way through check in etc and the humiliation of taking clothing off etc. when going through security. Call me a snob (and I know I am!) but one of the reasons that I got into flying in the first place was to “go places” so that I didn’t need to sit next to some old dear going on about her bunions and piles!
Miserlou – Cardinal 177RG = high wing, no thanks.
A and C – have considered a Robin previously but looked at it as more of a sideways step? Cost of purchase wise though, aren’t there more Pipers etc, out there?
No-one has mentioned Saratoga, Lance, Malibu? Are they just not worth considering?
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Piper Aircraft, Inc.
The matrix is the new lance - 350hp 213 KTAS Cruise. You really are looking at an IR course to get the best out of this machine - at lease an IMC for UK use. The mirage is the pressurized sister - again for higher flight levels, but another system for you to manage.
Plenty of room for a 4 man raft and luggage, club seats and even an emergency chemical loo if you wanted - or a squatiing area for a shewee
Shewee :: Army Navy Store
I am a bit out of the prices these days, but the one I used to fly 5 years ago was close to £280 per hour, but the guy who owned it said that it cost him £400 as it never flew. For that you could fly a Seneca and give your family extra safety - they are slower though, but it is nice to hear 2 doinks purring away.
Stapleford Flight Centre - Commercial Flight Training - Price Information
£290 from here but if you were in a group, you would get the aircraft you wanted - worth it if you are doing 50 hrs per year. Some groups give you access to singles too on the fleet.
AVOID the twin star *** and read the accident reports on the type that you are flying. This can help you from making the same mistakes.
The matrix is the new lance - 350hp 213 KTAS Cruise. You really are looking at an IR course to get the best out of this machine - at lease an IMC for UK use. The mirage is the pressurized sister - again for higher flight levels, but another system for you to manage.
Plenty of room for a 4 man raft and luggage, club seats and even an emergency chemical loo if you wanted - or a squatiing area for a shewee
Shewee :: Army Navy Store
I am a bit out of the prices these days, but the one I used to fly 5 years ago was close to £280 per hour, but the guy who owned it said that it cost him £400 as it never flew. For that you could fly a Seneca and give your family extra safety - they are slower though, but it is nice to hear 2 doinks purring away.
Stapleford Flight Centre - Commercial Flight Training - Price Information
£290 from here but if you were in a group, you would get the aircraft you wanted - worth it if you are doing 50 hrs per year. Some groups give you access to singles too on the fleet.
AVOID the twin star *** and read the accident reports on the type that you are flying. This can help you from making the same mistakes.
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http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources...pdf_501691.pdf
for example -
Power is sifficient and not too staggered
T's and P's in limits and as expected
ASI alive.
Basic stuff that would have kept them on the ground after a very short distance. Gear does feature a bit in GA incidents. Always spend a bit of time on the pre-flights and have a plan if it goes wrong, keeping calm. Not thinking and rushing is where poor decisions are made - and evaluate how the plan is going...does it need changing?
for example -
Power is sifficient and not too staggered
T's and P's in limits and as expected
ASI alive.
Basic stuff that would have kept them on the ground after a very short distance. Gear does feature a bit in GA incidents. Always spend a bit of time on the pre-flights and have a plan if it goes wrong, keeping calm. Not thinking and rushing is where poor decisions are made - and evaluate how the plan is going...does it need changing?
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I know you're hung up on a low wing, but you're denying yourself the option of the Cessna 210 (or even better, the turbo version T210).
Much quicker than most of those listed above, 6 seats (or fold the back two down for extra luggage, and it already takes lots), good short field performance, comfortable for pilots and pax, flies an ILS like it's on rails ... etc etc. Pressurised version available (and even a turbo-prop customised one if you're loaded, check out the "Silver Eagle")
I wouldn't write it off until you've tried one ....
Much quicker than most of those listed above, 6 seats (or fold the back two down for extra luggage, and it already takes lots), good short field performance, comfortable for pilots and pax, flies an ILS like it's on rails ... etc etc. Pressurised version available (and even a turbo-prop customised one if you're loaded, check out the "Silver Eagle")
I wouldn't write it off until you've tried one ....
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Having owned a Robin DR400/180, I can agree this is one of the best 'simple' tourers - 125-130kts, fixed pitch, fixed gear and will easily lift 4 people and full fuel in its 4 tanks. Not many so called 4 seaters will do that. Only downside is not very good ventilation in hot weather and suspect eletrics, like most things French. But it will have to be hangared as wood and fabric. I have also owned a Piper PA24/260B Comanche, very fast- 160kts, 4+2 seats, almost impossible to over load and very comfortable to sit in and fly - I went all over europe in ours over 10 years ownership. Downsides - old, and will cost at least twice as much as Robin to maintain -- but what beautiful looks and handling -- See April 2003 Pilot mag. I miss mine very much. Now have RV6, so for two persons this is the way to go - LAA permit, 150-160kts. Lastly don't be fooled into thinking all four seaters are really 4 seaters -- check empty versus max all up weight and you will see most are 3 or 2+2's -- even Bonanza V35 in our hangar is not 4 seats with full fuel !!!!
Phill C – on paper, the Mooney does it all so why does it have such a bad reuputation for being cramped? I’m 6ft 1in, so would I comfortably fit into it? Is it because the height and width of the cabin are ok but the shape is very curved, such that hitting one’s head is a definite possibility?
The M20J (201/205) looks ideal for the job. Fast and frugal. There are 3 excuses for not owning a Mooney:
* if you operate out of a very short and/or bumpy strip -- the undercarriage is, er, simple.
* if you find yourself regularly needing significant crosswind capability -- I found take-off in excess of 15 knots of crosswind to be "sporting".
* if you need a genuine 4-people carrier -- the useful load is fine for 2+2, a few bags and sensible fuel, but by the time you put 4 adults in, there's not much useful load left.
If none of those apply to you, go and buy one.
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VMC-on -top
"Sideways step?"
You asked about an aircraft for a mission, The Robin is that aircraft for that Mission at a price not far off the cost of the warrior. I have flown and maintaned most of the aircraft quoted by people in posts above, all the retractable gear and wobbly props will add at least 50% to your costs, 15% to your speed and 20% to the take off & landing distance required.
The Robin is not a hard aircraft to fly but it requires a bit more skill to get the very best from it and I find a very rewarding aircraft to fly, it is at home on the smallest of farm strips or flying an ILS down to 200 ft.
It is probably not as "club house sexy" as some of the other kit quoted above but after 11,000 hours flying I don't realy care if it is only a sideways step from a Warrior I like flying it !
You asked about an aircraft for a mission, The Robin is that aircraft for that Mission at a price not far off the cost of the warrior. I have flown and maintaned most of the aircraft quoted by people in posts above, all the retractable gear and wobbly props will add at least 50% to your costs, 15% to your speed and 20% to the take off & landing distance required.
The Robin is not a hard aircraft to fly but it requires a bit more skill to get the very best from it and I find a very rewarding aircraft to fly, it is at home on the smallest of farm strips or flying an ILS down to 200 ft.
It is probably not as "club house sexy" as some of the other kit quoted above but after 11,000 hours flying I don't realy care if it is only a sideways step from a Warrior I like flying it !
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I should opt for something with floppy wheels and 200-250 HP - but not 350HP....learn to walk before you run and all that.
My choice would be a Rockwell Commander....of course
My choice would be a Rockwell Commander....of course
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Rockwell ?
Having flown the Rockwell 114 quite a lot and also the TB20 I have found them both very good aircraft ( I have a slight preferance for the R114) but you cant slide a cigarette paper between the two of them on performance.
Both types will forfill VMC-on -top's mission requirement very well in all respects except economy (or short field performance) .................. Oh dear! I think it is still the Robin that makes the grade in ALL the mission requirments.
Both types will forfill VMC-on -top's mission requirement very well in all respects except economy (or short field performance) .................. Oh dear! I think it is still the Robin that makes the grade in ALL the mission requirments.