Advice on Socata TB10
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Advice on Socata TB10
I am an IFR pilot in US getting back into flying, considering a TB10 as my first airplane. Am attracted by the good looks of the airplane as also availability of newer used planes (compared to PA 28). Appreciate your help with the following
- Are TB10s not as fuel efficient as PA 28s?
- Is the premium for the GT models worth it?
- Advice on best target year to go after in a TB10 (if models vary by year)
- Do these airplanes command a premium over other similar used pistons (or the same or lower than others)
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Are TB10s not as fuel efficient as PA 28s?
Is the premium for the GT models worth it?
Advice on best target year to go after in a TB10 (if models vary by year)
Do these airplanes command a premium over other similar used pistons (or the same or lower than others)
Is the premium for the GT models worth it?
Advice on best target year to go after in a TB10 (if models vary by year)
Do these airplanes command a premium over other similar used pistons (or the same or lower than others)
Re the GT premium - what you are really getting is two things: a newer plane which will give you more substantially maintenance-free years, and various little things which were fixed in the GT. The GTs were made only after year 2000 and piston production stopped ~ 2002 so not many were made. Looking at the serial number data e.g. here (edit the URL for the starting S/N as desired) not many TB10s were sold during those years - presumably due to Socata's overly inflated pricing coupled with a start of a downturn in GA sales generally. I'd always buy a GT over a pre-GT, for both reasons above, but it does cost a bit more. Many of the GTs still look and smell like new. A TB20GT (if you can stretch your budget to that) is a really super plane with a lot more capability.
Re best years - unsuprisingly I would avoid really old ones but not for any specific reasons as the airframe never changed very much in its basics. Just buy the newest you can afford, and the usual advice is to buy a plane which already has all avionics you need already fitted (because installing avionics is a mug's game financially).
Re a premium - yes the GT does hold its price better but there is very little data on the TB10GT because there are not many of them about. A TB20GT, year 2002, good condition etc, will sell for GBP 140-150k which is probably 2x more than a 1995 one of similar spec and post-overhaul engine hours would sell for. But realistically no plane holds its value well these days. Socatas do a lot better than Cirruses whose values become dust after a few years, but I now see early TB20s for GBP 40k... (OK those are real dogs, but a PA28 of same age would be a dog too).
Last edited by IO540; 28th Jan 2010 at 06:23.
Spoon PPRuNerist & Mad Inistrator
IO,
I assume that you meant spacious, but one meaning of specious is "deceptively attractive in appearance" - which is pretty much true as well!
SD
It has a more specious cockpit
SD
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I do try to keep my spelling / grammar errors to the absolute minimum, so you get 1 brownie point there
(but only one
)Original post corrected.
What I didn't say is that a TB10 is in a whole different class above a PA28. 2 doors, style, decent windows, non-anorak passengers just love them.
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If you are looking at top end Socata's you might also check out the Rockwell 114.
You can't slide a cigarette paper between the 114 & TB20 on performance, they both use the IO540 engine so costs should be about the same.
You can't slide a cigarette paper between the 114 & TB20 on performance, they both use the IO540 engine so costs should be about the same.
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I looked at some Rockwells back in 2002 when I was looking, and agree that the closest comparison to a TB20/21 would be a Commander.
I can't remember which Commander model was turbocharged; nearly all those I looked at were turbocharged, and the TB21 was then the real comparison. But the TB21, with +1000fpm at FL150 and a 25k ceiling, makes little sense in Europe without a full IR and a significant airways touring requirement, given the poorer MPG at lower levels, and the relatively small chance of any turbo engine making TBO which results in the engine fund being about £10-15/hr bigger.
However, the feedback I got (pre-buy) from general enquiries around maintenance shops was that Rockwells had many parts availability issues, grounding many planes for 3-6 months at a time, whereas Socata parts are usually very easy.
I can't remember which Commander model was turbocharged; nearly all those I looked at were turbocharged, and the TB21 was then the real comparison. But the TB21, with +1000fpm at FL150 and a 25k ceiling, makes little sense in Europe without a full IR and a significant airways touring requirement, given the poorer MPG at lower levels, and the relatively small chance of any turbo engine making TBO which results in the engine fund being about £10-15/hr bigger.
However, the feedback I got (pre-buy) from general enquiries around maintenance shops was that Rockwells had many parts availability issues, grounding many planes for 3-6 months at a time, whereas Socata parts are usually very easy.
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I flew the TB10 once, and it's a great first plane. I loved the view outside and the controls who are with connecting rods instead of cables.
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I used to be in a TB10 group and must say it was a very nice aeroplane to fly....Certainly better than all the PA28's other than a Dakota and possibly an Arrow. As IO says, it is a nicer cockpit, plenty of room, and easy to get in and out of.
I did find it a little under powered (180HP), though the CS prop made up for that once in the cruise. It was no speed demon, and would cruise at 110 indicated at 2-4k (sorry don't have TAS figures), glided like a brick and was no short field baby either. Still it certainly was a nice aeroplane.
Of course it all depends on your budget....I saw a VERY nice Commander 114 at Phoenix which benefited from 530/430/traffic/mode S, nice new painted panel and all the bells and whistles with low timed engine for about $120,000.
I'm biased though and would opt for a Commander over a TB10 any day
It also depends on where you live in the US, if you live in Arizona and regularly fly over hot mountains, then I wouldn't opt for a TB10. It felt "heavy" to me for the power, and I'd go for a turbocharged Commander myself (again I am biased )....or a TB20.
Good luck!
I did find it a little under powered (180HP), though the CS prop made up for that once in the cruise. It was no speed demon, and would cruise at 110 indicated at 2-4k (sorry don't have TAS figures), glided like a brick and was no short field baby either. Still it certainly was a nice aeroplane.
Of course it all depends on your budget....I saw a VERY nice Commander 114 at Phoenix which benefited from 530/430/traffic/mode S, nice new painted panel and all the bells and whistles with low timed engine for about $120,000.
I'm biased though and would opt for a Commander over a TB10 any day
It also depends on where you live in the US, if you live in Arizona and regularly fly over hot mountains, then I wouldn't opt for a TB10. It felt "heavy" to me for the power, and I'd go for a turbocharged Commander myself (again I am biased )....or a TB20.Good luck!
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Well, a Commander 114 is in a different league performance wise to a TB10
The TB GT range has about 2" to 3" more headroom, due to the curved composite roof. This obviously slowed them down a little so Socata did some cleanups to avoid having to change the performance data in the flight manual On the TB20/21 they made the footsteps retractable and changed the wingtips and some other details.
As I said, if the man can stretch to a TB20 he will get a whole different class of plane. The range is about 2x better (1300nm on economy cruise, to zero fuel), it's a lot faster, same MPG, climbs at +1000fpm at max weight, 20k ceiling (enough to get above just about all stratus cloud).
I spent some time in 2001/02 looking at TB10s but all the ones I found were quite old and in less than great condition. No GTs. This was probably because European sales were poor after the 1980s, due to excessive pricing and the plentiful availability of cheap PA28 type wreckage which "does the job".
The TB GT range has about 2" to 3" more headroom, due to the curved composite roof. This obviously slowed them down a little so Socata did some cleanups to avoid having to change the performance data in the flight manual
On the TB20/21 they made the footsteps retractable and changed the wingtips and some other details.As I said, if the man can stretch to a TB20 he will get a whole different class of plane. The range is about 2x better (1300nm on economy cruise, to zero fuel), it's a lot faster, same MPG, climbs at +1000fpm at max weight, 20k ceiling (enough to get above just about all stratus cloud).
I spent some time in 2001/02 looking at TB10s but all the ones I found were quite old and in less than great condition. No GTs. This was probably because European sales were poor after the 1980s, due to excessive pricing and the plentiful availability of cheap PA28 type wreckage which "does the job".
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I can't really add anything to this discussion over what IO540 has provided as I'm in a TB9 group and have only sampled a few flights in a TB10 and TB20.
However if you haven't already then sign up to Socata TB Users Group where they have dedicated forums to the TB range.
However if you haven't already then sign up to Socata TB Users Group where they have dedicated forums to the TB range.
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However if you haven't already then sign up to Socata TB Users Group where they have dedicated forums to the TB range.
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TB 10's etc are nice aircraft to fly, have great looks too but the spares and other support from socata is the worst I have ever come across.
Spares are generaly a lot more expensive than other types.
Find a maintenance facility that looks after a few and ask their opinion before you buy.
Spares are generaly a lot more expensive than other types.
Find a maintenance facility that looks after a few and ask their opinion before you buy.
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I don't quite agree re the spares prices.
The reality is that all airframe parts from anyone are silly-priced. £200 for a tiny little 20mm piece of aluminium with 2 holes in it - which the mfg extrudes in 10m lengths for £20/length and then drills 2 holes in it and being a JAR145 firm with the type certificate, generates the documentation from fresh air That is why one should not buy a really old plane - lots of airframe parts may be needed.
Socata's pricing is not helped by some stupid decisions like ISO hose fittings which result in some hoses costing £200 (£400 from Socata) when a US-fitting hose would have cost £60 (Teflon, etc). But one rarely needs these (engine overhaul time only, and Teflon hoses have no life limit on the TB).
A more general issue is a lack of crashed TBs from which parts can be transferred. Not a problem with Cessna or Piper.
IMHO, the biggest problem Socata has is that they are French. They have awfully arrogant attitudes and their working practices would have been envied by Arthur Scargill. Only the TBM is expensive enough to absorb the way they "work".
The parts are available 99% of the time off the shelf but finding a decent dealer has at times been very hard. Air Touring had been at war with Socata for years (over warranty reimbursement, etc) before they went bust, and now AT Germany has gone bust too. A lot of people currently buy from Troyes in France who are very good but they keep little stock; they seem to buy back to back mostly (which is quite common for dealers anyway).
The reality is that all airframe parts from anyone are silly-priced. £200 for a tiny little 20mm piece of aluminium with 2 holes in it - which the mfg extrudes in 10m lengths for £20/length and then drills 2 holes in it and being a JAR145 firm with the type certificate, generates the documentation from fresh air
That is why one should not buy a really old plane - lots of airframe parts may be needed.Socata's pricing is not helped by some stupid decisions like ISO hose fittings which result in some hoses costing £200 (£400 from Socata) when a US-fitting hose would have cost £60 (Teflon, etc). But one rarely needs these (engine overhaul time only, and Teflon hoses have no life limit on the TB).
A more general issue is a lack of crashed TBs from which parts can be transferred. Not a problem with Cessna or Piper.
IMHO, the biggest problem Socata has is that they are French. They have awfully arrogant attitudes and their working practices would have been envied by Arthur Scargill. Only the TBM is expensive enough to absorb the way they "work".
The parts are available 99% of the time off the shelf but finding a decent dealer has at times been very hard. Air Touring had been at war with Socata for years (over warranty reimbursement, etc) before they went bust, and now AT Germany has gone bust too. A lot of people currently buy from Troyes in France who are very good but they keep little stock; they seem to buy back to back mostly (which is quite common for dealers anyway).
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^^^
Not in my experience. A delightful touring aircraft that had its share of problems (eg. paintwork and upholstery was a bit cheap on the early ones but soon rectified) but no dog for sure. Even the humble TB9 does not entirely deserve its ground gripper reputation, I enjoyed owning one for several trouble free years.
the TB10. A dog to fly.
Last edited by WaspJunior; 1st Feb 2010 at 10:39.
Well, I guess it's all down to personal preferences. I instructed on the TB10 (amongst others) in a hot country. Not much fun I can assure you! Had a ridiculous best glide speed for a SEP (from memory...) A veritable ground hugger with restricted over the dash views.
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Socatas tend to be liked by pilots who go places, with "non-anorak" passengers. It's a very civilised plane.
They tend to be liked less by pilots who have bought into the spamcan scene - either by chance or by choice (e.g. instructors) - and who have accepted the various mad compromises e.g. a single door.
The TB9 has little power but then so does the PA28-140 which has sold in vast numbers but gets off the ground only because of the earth's curvature.
The TB10 is a bit better than the TB9. I have been in a TB10 at max weight and we got airborne off a dry grass runway over a measured 340m, which I cannot see anything wrong with, given the classy cockpit etc.
But the TB9 or 10 are not even a patch on a TB20 which is a very capable machine.
I've got ~ 120hrs in Cesspits and PA28s and don't recall any of them having better visibility than my TB20.
They tend to be liked less by pilots who have bought into the spamcan scene - either by chance or by choice (e.g. instructors) - and who have accepted the various mad compromises e.g. a single door.
The TB9 has little power but then so does the PA28-140 which has sold in vast numbers but gets off the ground only because of the earth's curvature.
The TB10 is a bit better than the TB9. I have been in a TB10 at max weight and we got airborne off a dry grass runway over a measured 340m, which I cannot see anything wrong with, given the classy cockpit etc.
But the TB9 or 10 are not even a patch on a TB20 which is a very capable machine.
I've got ~ 120hrs in Cesspits and PA28s and don't recall any of them having better visibility than my TB20.