Plane crash near Oxford Airport
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The pilot held a current Class One medical certificate.
However, there is evidence that such medical
examinations are not necessarily successful at detecting
coronary heart disease.
However, there is evidence that such medical
examinations are not necessarily successful at detecting
coronary heart disease.
1st class medical
Growing up I knew three AC pilots who died or were disabled from heart attacks. All were current line pilots with EKG's every 6 months. Makes you wonder how effective the medicals are.
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20driver
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I am not a doctor but I think some people know they have heart issues but don't tell anybody because they know it is likely to be the end of their flying.
Telling a doctor about chest pains is a bit like telling him you have a constant headache and suffer an intermittent loss of vision in one eye... the sky is going to cave in.
And there is no easy way to get stuff investigated without the AME finding out. I don't know if this is regular but when I did the initial CAA Class 1, they absolutely requested a copy of my GP's file. I suppose you could have stuff looked at privately, perhaps overseas...
My father died of a heart attack (aged 74) but he had angina pains for some years beforehand, had done zero exercise for at least 50 years, and had severe symptoms if doing any (e.g. walking up stairs).
There sure appear to be cases where a perfectly healthy and fit individual just drops dead, but they are very rare.
This accident seems so pointless because keeping a plane the right way up is no rocket science. I can explain it to myself only in terms of the passenger just sitting there not looking at the instruments - until he got visual just before impact.
Telling a doctor about chest pains is a bit like telling him you have a constant headache and suffer an intermittent loss of vision in one eye... the sky is going to cave in.
And there is no easy way to get stuff investigated without the AME finding out. I don't know if this is regular but when I did the initial CAA Class 1, they absolutely requested a copy of my GP's file. I suppose you could have stuff looked at privately, perhaps overseas...
My father died of a heart attack (aged 74) but he had angina pains for some years beforehand, had done zero exercise for at least 50 years, and had severe symptoms if doing any (e.g. walking up stairs).
There sure appear to be cases where a perfectly healthy and fit individual just drops dead, but they are very rare.
This accident seems so pointless because keeping a plane the right way up is no rocket science. I can explain it to myself only in terms of the passenger just sitting there not looking at the instruments - until he got visual just before impact.
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Bloke up the road was very fit, 61, used to be in the running club. I waved to him as he ran passed my back fence in the field behind my house. 30 mins later the air ambulance was landing and picking up his dead body.
Not to mention Nigel Pitcher, who some may know as a really likeable CAA examiner in his late 40's / 50's I believe. Dropped dead not so long ago.
My mate's dad had an ECG due to chest pains - nothing wrong apparently. Very next day, in front of the Formula 1 (which must have been the cause) he dropped stone dead.
All this pre-empting heart problems doesn't seem to work, which is what the FAA realised a long time ago which is why a PPL is not subject to an ECG, at least not until you get pretty old.
Not to mention Nigel Pitcher, who some may know as a really likeable CAA examiner in his late 40's / 50's I believe. Dropped dead not so long ago.
My mate's dad had an ECG due to chest pains - nothing wrong apparently. Very next day, in front of the Formula 1 (which must have been the cause) he dropped stone dead.
All this pre-empting heart problems doesn't seem to work, which is what the FAA realised a long time ago which is why a PPL is not subject to an ECG, at least not until you get pretty old.
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It does seem strange that the fairly experienced passenger couldn't keep it flying in IMC. Seems there must have been other factors, perhaps the pilot never relinquished control thinking he could battle through the chest pain. I suppose we'll never know.
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Or perhaps the passenger didn't realise there was a problem until it was too late to do anything about it. If they were in a climb maybe the PIC didn't slump forwards as he might have done in straight and level?
"which is why a PPL is not subject to an ECG, at least not until you get pretty old"
Er, the age for an ECG for a PPL in UK is 50yrs, I am sure these tests have helped these aged individuals identify problems - late in life !
Sympathies to those two that perished.
Er, the age for an ECG for a PPL in UK is 50yrs, I am sure these tests have helped these aged individuals identify problems - late in life !
Sympathies to those two that perished.
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Er, the age for an ECG for a PPL in UK is 50yrs, I am sure these tests have helped these aged individuals identify problems - late in life
Of course for class 1 (which is what these people were flying on) it is more frequent.
I'm not a doctor either (maybe someone who is can fill us in a bit better?) but I know that an ECG can but does not always pick up heart disease. The only definitive test involves invasive investigation of the coronary arteries, which itself carries risk to the patient/pilot and hence is not part of aircrew medicals. These issues were discussed more heavily in the AAIB report into the Staines Trident crash in 1972 (still available on AAIB website)
Last edited by KeyPilot; 13th Nov 2010 at 16:18. Reason: Added that report still avbl on AAIB website
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Aside from the medical debate..
Aside from the medical debate, may we please spare a thought for Tony Corr who was a fine pilot, top man and thoroughly decent guy.
Thanks 2G
Thanks 2G
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Nigel Pitcher didn't drop dead thank you
Dear Englishal.
As Nigel Pitcher's wife, could I just say that sometimes it would be nice to think about people's feelings before writing things like that. My husband did not 'drop dead' he had a heart attack, in bed, in my arms. Your comment, although you say he was a likeable chap, is very hurtful. I have a 10 year old son and we both miss Nigel terribly and the shock of losing him is still very deep. My husband was the most amazing man to walk this planet.
On the other side, he had medicals every 6 months, WITH ECG's as he flew for the Navy, nothing was ever picked up and was perfectly fit the night before he 'passed away'. Oh, and he was 48.
Sorry to be harsh, but please think before you speak.
Thank you
Mrs Sue Pitcher
As Nigel Pitcher's wife, could I just say that sometimes it would be nice to think about people's feelings before writing things like that. My husband did not 'drop dead' he had a heart attack, in bed, in my arms. Your comment, although you say he was a likeable chap, is very hurtful. I have a 10 year old son and we both miss Nigel terribly and the shock of losing him is still very deep. My husband was the most amazing man to walk this planet.
On the other side, he had medicals every 6 months, WITH ECG's as he flew for the Navy, nothing was ever picked up and was perfectly fit the night before he 'passed away'. Oh, and he was 48.
Sorry to be harsh, but please think before you speak.
Thank you
Mrs Sue Pitcher
Last edited by SuePitcher; 28th Nov 2010 at 22:21. Reason: Missed a bit
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Sue:
Your post highlights everything that is bad about PPRuNe: people who should know better sometimes say things on the basis that they imagine the relatives of the person they are talking about will not see them.
You have proved this point very well: I as a (very infrequent) poster am saddened and embarrassed that you should have had even to write your post and I hope the poster is man enough to acknowledge his insensitivity: nay even to post an apology.
We have never met and I did not know your husband but in reading your post I felt your pain. I wish you and your son well in your future life without your husband in the hope that someday the pain will diminish.
Cusco
Your post highlights everything that is bad about PPRuNe: people who should know better sometimes say things on the basis that they imagine the relatives of the person they are talking about will not see them.
You have proved this point very well: I as a (very infrequent) poster am saddened and embarrassed that you should have had even to write your post and I hope the poster is man enough to acknowledge his insensitivity: nay even to post an apology.
We have never met and I did not know your husband but in reading your post I felt your pain. I wish you and your son well in your future life without your husband in the hope that someday the pain will diminish.
Cusco
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Key pilot:
With my medical hat on (but admittedly not cardiology) there is in fact a step between the resting ECG and the invasive coronary angiography and that is the Exercise ECG:
This involves taking an ECG while the subject exercises quite vigorously (usually on a treadmill). But even this is too complex to be used as a screening test and is only employed when the subject gives a history of possible heart malfunction such as shortness of breath or chest pain on exertion.
This test may show ischaemic changes (reduced blood supply) in the heart muscle which were not evident in the resting EGC and would then prompt moving on to angiography.
It too also carries risks of its own (inducing a heart attack due to exertion) in very severe cases, just like the angiogram: another reason for not using it as a screen.
Needless to say the risks of these invasive tests (including death) would be discussed with the parient beforehand and the ultimate decision rests with the patient.
In the case of our former a/c group leader (PPL age 70)he decided not to have the angiogram and voluntarily hung up his headset.
That might not be an option for a commercial pilot in mid-career.
Even coupled with cardiac enzyme tests the standard (resting) ECG will not predict the future: Unlike a volcano which often announces trouble afoot ahead of an eruption , a heart attack can come silently and finally with no warning.
Another reason to kick into touch MO'L's notion of passenger flights with only one pilot.
For a fuller explanation search the medical section
Cusco
I'm not a doctor either (maybe someone who is can fill us in a bit better?) but I know that an ECG can but does not always pick up heart disease. The only definitive test involves invasive investigation of the coronary arteries, which itself carries risk to the patient/pilot and hence is not part of aircrew medicals.
This involves taking an ECG while the subject exercises quite vigorously (usually on a treadmill). But even this is too complex to be used as a screening test and is only employed when the subject gives a history of possible heart malfunction such as shortness of breath or chest pain on exertion.
This test may show ischaemic changes (reduced blood supply) in the heart muscle which were not evident in the resting EGC and would then prompt moving on to angiography.
It too also carries risks of its own (inducing a heart attack due to exertion) in very severe cases, just like the angiogram: another reason for not using it as a screen.
Needless to say the risks of these invasive tests (including death) would be discussed with the parient beforehand and the ultimate decision rests with the patient.
In the case of our former a/c group leader (PPL age 70)he decided not to have the angiogram and voluntarily hung up his headset.
That might not be an option for a commercial pilot in mid-career.
Even coupled with cardiac enzyme tests the standard (resting) ECG will not predict the future: Unlike a volcano which often announces trouble afoot ahead of an eruption , a heart attack can come silently and finally with no warning.
Another reason to kick into touch MO'L's notion of passenger flights with only one pilot.
For a fuller explanation search the medical section
Cusco
Last edited by Cusco; 29th Nov 2010 at 10:16.
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Thank you
Thank you Flybymike and Cusco, for your kind words, a light has gone off in Dorset and our lives.
I didn't mean to be rude to Englishal, I was just terribly hurt.
Thank you again for your kindness, Nige will always live on in our Son.
Take care
Sue
I didn't mean to be rude to Englishal, I was just terribly hurt.
Thank you again for your kindness, Nige will always live on in our Son.
Take care
Sue
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I've just had an artificial aortic valve fitted and I understand that this means that I will never be able to hold a class 1 medical again. Do you know what? I don't care because the alternative was death and to me that is a LOT less attractive than holding a medical/licence and I will accept some restrictions upon my future career in exchange for being alive and well.
I experienced chest pains and went to the ER to find that my ECG showed no problem whatsoever. I insisted on further investigation which showed the tear in my aorta and the need for a replacement valve. If I hadn't made a fuss I would have been dead within a few days (maybe even hours).
The medics can't find the faults unless we tell them HONESTLY what our symptoms are and even then they can't find everything. Unfortunately, not everyone is so philosophical about their medical and many pilots regard doctors as the enemy, meaning that they are prepared to risk their health in order to sneak through a medical.
I experienced chest pains and went to the ER to find that my ECG showed no problem whatsoever. I insisted on further investigation which showed the tear in my aorta and the need for a replacement valve. If I hadn't made a fuss I would have been dead within a few days (maybe even hours).
The medics can't find the faults unless we tell them HONESTLY what our symptoms are and even then they can't find everything. Unfortunately, not everyone is so philosophical about their medical and many pilots regard doctors as the enemy, meaning that they are prepared to risk their health in order to sneak through a medical.
Avoid imitations
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I had the opposite problem with ECGs.
My Class 1 ECG suddenly showed up as abnormal (many done previously, during both military and civvy medicals). It "diagnosed" that I'd had a heart attack!
Obviously, my medical certificate was immediately suspended. It coincided with a new "intelligent" ECG machine being installed at my AME's surgery. The "trace" apparently showed no changes to my previous ones. I had to go through a lot of tests, including a 24 hour heart monitor, a stress ECG and finally angioscopy (a tiny camera is inserted into an artery in the groin and fed up to the heart) to prove I hadn't. All at my own expense.
The cardiologist/surgeon, also a CPL holder, eventually said he would fly with me any time; thankfully everything in there was clean as a whistle!
My Class 1 ECG suddenly showed up as abnormal (many done previously, during both military and civvy medicals). It "diagnosed" that I'd had a heart attack!
Obviously, my medical certificate was immediately suspended. It coincided with a new "intelligent" ECG machine being installed at my AME's surgery. The "trace" apparently showed no changes to my previous ones. I had to go through a lot of tests, including a 24 hour heart monitor, a stress ECG and finally angioscopy (a tiny camera is inserted into an artery in the groin and fed up to the heart) to prove I hadn't. All at my own expense.
The cardiologist/surgeon, also a CPL holder, eventually said he would fly with me any time; thankfully everything in there was clean as a whistle!