To Buy or Not to Buy?
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Join Date: Sep 2006
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To Buy or Not to Buy?
Hi,
I am currently a low time Private Pilot (83hours or so) who is interested in continuing his training. Unfortunately (although the weather alone makes up for it) I live in the Caribbean Island of Puerto Rico where the aviation industry is not as diversified as say, in mainland USA or anywhere else for that matters. What it boils down to is that I would be spending $185/hour wet on a Cessna 172 (with instructor). Compared with the $110/hour wet I paid in the mainland USA for a Piper Cherokee that sounds like an arm and a leg. Given the current economic climate and due to my job here moving back to the states for training is not an option at the moment.
I recently came across an individual who was moving back to the states and is selling a 1964 Cessna 150D for $12,000. Now the asking price sounds good and I think I might even get it lowered, but I do know that owning a plane is very different from owning a car, in that there are a lot of recurrent costs, such as maintenance, inspections, insurance, parking etc.
My primary aim if I end up buying is to continue flying and keep current. I do expect to rent a fully IFR capable C172 to learn in and keep currency as well in addition to this endeavor. So to you I pose this question, should I buy and fly or keep on renting? The aircraft has about 650hours TBO so it should be good to go for the next 600hours or so before overhaul. How good are Cessna 150's as far as a learning airplane? What do you think about the asking price?
I did a bit of research on AOPA and came up with this checklist of things to consider. Please feel free to add any suggestions as well.
Before Buying Checklist
Things to take into consideration:
Fixed costs: Cost of loan, tie down, maintenance inspections, insurance. State taxes.
Variable costs: Fuel & Oil, repairs, overhauls etc
Things to look for in airplane:
Airworthiness certificate,
engine and airframe logbooks,
aircraft equipment list,
weight and balance data,
placards,
FAA-approved aircraft flight manual or owner's handbook.
Things to do:
Title search/insurance
Pre-purchase inspection
Airworthiness Directives
State Registration
Bill of Sale: FAA Form 8050-2
Aircraft Registration: FAA Form 8050-1 (available from FSDO, needs typed original form)
Wow, I know that was a lot of text to go through, but if you are reading this I would sincerely appreciate your comments on the matter. I know that buying an airplane is not a light task and would love to hear about your experiences as well.
I am currently a low time Private Pilot (83hours or so) who is interested in continuing his training. Unfortunately (although the weather alone makes up for it) I live in the Caribbean Island of Puerto Rico where the aviation industry is not as diversified as say, in mainland USA or anywhere else for that matters. What it boils down to is that I would be spending $185/hour wet on a Cessna 172 (with instructor). Compared with the $110/hour wet I paid in the mainland USA for a Piper Cherokee that sounds like an arm and a leg. Given the current economic climate and due to my job here moving back to the states for training is not an option at the moment.
I recently came across an individual who was moving back to the states and is selling a 1964 Cessna 150D for $12,000. Now the asking price sounds good and I think I might even get it lowered, but I do know that owning a plane is very different from owning a car, in that there are a lot of recurrent costs, such as maintenance, inspections, insurance, parking etc.
My primary aim if I end up buying is to continue flying and keep current. I do expect to rent a fully IFR capable C172 to learn in and keep currency as well in addition to this endeavor. So to you I pose this question, should I buy and fly or keep on renting? The aircraft has about 650hours TBO so it should be good to go for the next 600hours or so before overhaul. How good are Cessna 150's as far as a learning airplane? What do you think about the asking price?
I did a bit of research on AOPA and came up with this checklist of things to consider. Please feel free to add any suggestions as well.
Before Buying Checklist
Things to take into consideration:
Fixed costs: Cost of loan, tie down, maintenance inspections, insurance. State taxes.
Variable costs: Fuel & Oil, repairs, overhauls etc
Things to look for in airplane:
Airworthiness certificate,
engine and airframe logbooks,
aircraft equipment list,
weight and balance data,
placards,
FAA-approved aircraft flight manual or owner's handbook.
Things to do:
Title search/insurance
Pre-purchase inspection
Airworthiness Directives
State Registration
Bill of Sale: FAA Form 8050-2
Aircraft Registration: FAA Form 8050-1 (available from FSDO, needs typed original form)
Wow, I know that was a lot of text to go through, but if you are reading this I would sincerely appreciate your comments on the matter. I know that buying an airplane is not a light task and would love to hear about your experiences as well.
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I own a 150D, as for learning they are a bit too simple and forgiving. The nice thing about a 150D is that it has a good payload compared to other versions. ( Cessna increased MTOW by 100 lbs when they added the rear windows but it did cost like 50 lbs).
Not so good is the old panel layout and some spare parts are a bit hard to get. The D and E are the weird models in the 150 range.
All things considered I'm happy with it.
-Kees
Not so good is the old panel layout and some spare parts are a bit hard to get. The D and E are the weird models in the 150 range.
All things considered I'm happy with it.
-Kees
Moderator
Hey Ace,
I could not recommend ownership more highly - if you can afford it, buy the 150 (after confirming it is in the condition you expect, and airworthy). I bought mine in 1987, and could not be happier that I did!
Not too long, I posted on a thread on this subject, it might be informative for you. The whole thread is here http://www.pprune.org/private-flying...c150-pa28.html There is a wealth of help in keeping 150's in the air happily. A 150D is a good choice for a number of reasons.
Puerto Rico looks like a great place to fly around, as long as you don't bump into a cruise ship on short final into San Juan! It appeared that they stopped air traffic during our arrival and departure within the harbour...
As long as you take proper care of it, you'll not regret buying a 150. It will always be salable when you want to move on. Though, after 23 years, I've found mine so dependable and economical, I have never thought to move up.
Pilot DAR
I could not recommend ownership more highly - if you can afford it, buy the 150 (after confirming it is in the condition you expect, and airworthy). I bought mine in 1987, and could not be happier that I did!
Not too long, I posted on a thread on this subject, it might be informative for you. The whole thread is here http://www.pprune.org/private-flying...c150-pa28.html There is a wealth of help in keeping 150's in the air happily. A 150D is a good choice for a number of reasons.
Puerto Rico looks like a great place to fly around, as long as you don't bump into a cruise ship on short final into San Juan! It appeared that they stopped air traffic during our arrival and departure within the harbour...
As long as you take proper care of it, you'll not regret buying a 150. It will always be salable when you want to move on. Though, after 23 years, I've found mine so dependable and economical, I have never thought to move up.
Pilot DAR
It is absolutely imperative you get an unbiased prepurchase inspection. The sad fact is there is a gross imbalance between the cost of the airplane and the cost to replace any major component. The engine is a perfect example. The cost to remove, overhaul, and replace the engine on your 12,000 dollar
airplane is ..... at least $15,000. A set of brake discs and pads with labour for the work will not leave you much change from 1000 dollars etc. Since a new Cessna Skycathcher costs $115,000 a new C150 would probably retail for $150,000. Therefore in effect you are not buying new parts for a $12,000 Honda Civic , you are buying new parts for a Ferrari and the part are priced accordingly. My experience is low time pilots buying their own airplane are often not prepared for the reality of the maintainance costs. I am not saying it is a bad idea just do a lot of research before you buy, so you understand what you are getting into. The web is a great resource for this. Unfortunately I have personally seen several "great deals" turn into absolute nightmares for the owner.
airplane is ..... at least $15,000. A set of brake discs and pads with labour for the work will not leave you much change from 1000 dollars etc. Since a new Cessna Skycathcher costs $115,000 a new C150 would probably retail for $150,000. Therefore in effect you are not buying new parts for a $12,000 Honda Civic , you are buying new parts for a Ferrari and the part are priced accordingly. My experience is low time pilots buying their own airplane are often not prepared for the reality of the maintainance costs. I am not saying it is a bad idea just do a lot of research before you buy, so you understand what you are getting into. The web is a great resource for this. Unfortunately I have personally seen several "great deals" turn into absolute nightmares for the owner.
Moderator
Big is quite correct, though there are a few other factors to add to his thoughts:
Though the 150D is a bit of an odd model in the range, there are still many used servicable parts available, which are not yet for the Skycatcher - you have a choice where you buy parts with the 150.
Yes, you might have to replace or overhaul something. As long as you budject for it, you're still okay. Once the new or overhauled component is on the plane, the valuae of the plane is greatly increased (though don't fool yourself into thinking all of the paid amount is seen in increased value, just a lot of it). You can, though, fly the aircraft many hundred hours without the increased value decreasing much. So, pay the $15,000 plus re n re for the engine if it needs it, and fly off 500 hours, the value will even itself out in retained value of the aircraft, and that large amount you did not spend renting that 500 hours!
With a used 150, there is a better chance you can find someone to let you help with it's maintenance, and you'll both learn, and save a buck.
With the used 150, you can choose to not insure for hull, and take the risk yourself. The truth is that if you crash it a little, you have quite a bit of airframe to sell for parts. Even a prop struck O-200 has quite a bit of value. If you crash it a lot, you won't care, and you wife won't want what's left anyway... If you actually put the hull insurance premium you would have paid in the bank as a reserve, and fly with lots of care, and a little luck, you will profit over the long term. Fly it as a beater for a few years, with no hull insurance, then when you've saved more money, fix it up, and insure it properly. That's what I did...
There are very few "great deals" in aircraft purchase, just good business decisions, if you were prepared to rent all of that flying elsewhere. You will still be paying the costs, but at the end, you'll have an asset to sell. It might appreciate a little, and offset your flying costs.
150's are very reparable. Even if your thorough pre-purchase inspection turns up a defect, look at what it would cost to fix it, the purchase still might make good sense.
Though the 150D is a bit of an odd model in the range, there are still many used servicable parts available, which are not yet for the Skycatcher - you have a choice where you buy parts with the 150.
Yes, you might have to replace or overhaul something. As long as you budject for it, you're still okay. Once the new or overhauled component is on the plane, the valuae of the plane is greatly increased (though don't fool yourself into thinking all of the paid amount is seen in increased value, just a lot of it). You can, though, fly the aircraft many hundred hours without the increased value decreasing much. So, pay the $15,000 plus re n re for the engine if it needs it, and fly off 500 hours, the value will even itself out in retained value of the aircraft, and that large amount you did not spend renting that 500 hours!
With a used 150, there is a better chance you can find someone to let you help with it's maintenance, and you'll both learn, and save a buck.
With the used 150, you can choose to not insure for hull, and take the risk yourself. The truth is that if you crash it a little, you have quite a bit of airframe to sell for parts. Even a prop struck O-200 has quite a bit of value. If you crash it a lot, you won't care, and you wife won't want what's left anyway... If you actually put the hull insurance premium you would have paid in the bank as a reserve, and fly with lots of care, and a little luck, you will profit over the long term. Fly it as a beater for a few years, with no hull insurance, then when you've saved more money, fix it up, and insure it properly. That's what I did...
There are very few "great deals" in aircraft purchase, just good business decisions, if you were prepared to rent all of that flying elsewhere. You will still be paying the costs, but at the end, you'll have an asset to sell. It might appreciate a little, and offset your flying costs.
150's are very reparable. Even if your thorough pre-purchase inspection turns up a defect, look at what it would cost to fix it, the purchase still might make good sense.
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Inspection?
Thanks for all the good advice so far. I know owning an airplane is not going to be an inexpensive proposition, but I am hoping in the long run it will pay off. Regarding the pre-purchase inspection, I would like to have it done by an unbiased mechanic (meaning away from that airport). How long would this process take? Does it take all day or 2 or 3 days for a good inspection? I know there will be a lot of logs to go through etc, also how much should an inspection like this cost? I am going to check out the airplane tomorrow and take a ride. Will keep you guys updated.
Moderator
Ace,
(none of what follows is a subsitute or relief from checklists, or normal procedures)
When you fly the prospective 150, take the opportunity to do your own extra thorough walk around inspection. Have a good look at the following for starters: Structure generally, for any wrinkled skins, or "smoking" rivets (dark stains around them), dents, cracks, missing fasteners, wrong fasteners. Examine the tail tiedown ring, and the securuty of the fitting which holds in into the lower fuselage skin for evidence that it has hit the ground - is the fitting (a welded steel part) loose in the fuselage? The 150D has an odd tail arrangement compared to other 150's. Look carefully in the area of the attachement of the horizontal stabilizer to the fuselage. In particular, the local appearance of the leading edge skin of the stab as it attaches to the main stab skin, at the fuselage - is it wrinkled? If it is, or there are smoking rivets, you might have a cracked rib there. Using great care, press up and down on the tip of the stabilizer only enough to just change the position of the fuselage realitive to the ground (do not push harder than that). Is there any sqeaking or "oil canning"? I little oil canning is not unknown, but warrants further inspection. Examine the top wing skins just outboard of the fuel tank covers for any wrinkes. Examine the fuselage skin in the area of the main gear leg attachements for any wrinkles in the skin. Consider the reason for any patches you might see while you're looking. When you are doing this, you are intending to look at the entire external surface of the aircraft. This should take you 10-20 minutes. Also check the security and operation of the nosewheel. grab it and pull and push in all directions - loose? Steer it. with weight on it, the centering cam will prevent the rudder control system from moving, so only the lower nosewheel steering will move. There should be absolutely no freeplay between the steering collar (with the two pushrods going up and back) to the nose wheel fork. Nothing should wiggle. Anything (including the shimmy damper) which wiggles will create the possibility of nosewheel shimmy on the ground. Write down any defects you see. they might not disqualify the aircraft, but you want the inspector you hire next to know you found them, and explain thier significance (cost) to you.
As you enter the cabin, move the pilot's seat it's extreme travel range. Does it move freely? Inspect the portion of the seat rail which is exposed. Are the locking pin holes worn? are there any cracks in the top of the rail (between the holes and the edges)? (you'll have to wipe the rails to inspect). Do the controls move freely? Pull the rudder pedal arms toward you on each side (four total). is there a lot of wiggle in the horizontal rudder bars? While you're under the panel, look up, anything dangling or out of place up there? Is there a CO detector? does it look recently installed? Does it indicate CO?
Check the operation of the starter. It probably still has a "pull clutch" (you have to pull the starter handle toward you about three inches to start the engine). If properly operational, these are excellent for reliability, and low long term cost. With the master off (and the area of the prop confirmed to be clear) does it pull and retract freely? When you turn on the master switch, does the turn co-ordinator have a scary load bearing sound? When you pull the starter handle to starter the engine, does the clutch engage smootly? The stater motor is not energized until the clutch is correctly engaged? (no grinding gear sounds?) Does the enigne start and respond to the throttle well?
Go flying: Does it taxi straight if not steered? Brakes work effectively and evenly left to right? Not soft? While you are taxiing, deliberately find some uneven ground to taxi over. While crossing it, carefully watch the loer edge of the windshield relative to the place where it meets the glare shield. Does the winshield shift left to right relative to the glareshield as the airplane goes over the bumps? In the air, does it fly straight in smooth air? Using suitible practices, stall the plane with the ball right in the middle the whole time. At the stall, does it drop a wing? If you do it again and again, does it drop the same wing each time? Within appropriate operating limits, operate everything (except the fuel valve, Mags, and mixture idle cut off!), does it do what it should?
During landing did it shimmy or pull to one side. After you park, but before shut down, at enigne idle speed live mag check, by turning the key switch all the way off, then on again. did the engine turn off while still turning? (If not, do not touch the prop of this plane for any reason - see later check) Turn the fuel valve off, did the engine begin to stop after about a minute? Don't let it stop yet, turn the fuel back on. At 1200 RPM, pull the mixture out, watch the tach carefully; did the RPM increase a tiny amount before the engine stopped? Once the engine stops, are there any noises from the gyro instruments?
Once out of the aircraft, and it is tied or chocked, and the engine has cooled for five minutes, confirm the mags are turned off, key out, mixture idle cutoff, propeller area clear: Pull the prop through without allowing any part of your (or anyone else's body to enter the prop arc). Do eac of the four strokes seem the same as each other? The prop should seem to "bounce back" each time the prop stops on a compression stroke. These bounces should be more or less the same as each other. If one or more has no bounce back, you probably have a "flat cylinder" $1500.
You've spent at least an hour and a half with the plane now, and have a good sense of it's condition from a pilot's perspective. Any defects you have noticed are noted, for your inspector to consider. One of two failures in the foregoing, are not a "no" right off, but could be an indication of some cost to come.
An inspector will need a full day with the plane, but should not need much more. Having the logbooks in advance will be a help to him.
There are many more things to check, but the foregoing will give you a good idea, and if there are a lot of "failures" of your inspection, consider not going further with the purchse, or negotiating a price reduction, at least to cover the full cost of a very detailed (two - three day long) full inspection.
I'm sure others here can offer their advice too, but this will get you started. Good luck....
Pilot DAR
(none of what follows is a subsitute or relief from checklists, or normal procedures)
When you fly the prospective 150, take the opportunity to do your own extra thorough walk around inspection. Have a good look at the following for starters: Structure generally, for any wrinkled skins, or "smoking" rivets (dark stains around them), dents, cracks, missing fasteners, wrong fasteners. Examine the tail tiedown ring, and the securuty of the fitting which holds in into the lower fuselage skin for evidence that it has hit the ground - is the fitting (a welded steel part) loose in the fuselage? The 150D has an odd tail arrangement compared to other 150's. Look carefully in the area of the attachement of the horizontal stabilizer to the fuselage. In particular, the local appearance of the leading edge skin of the stab as it attaches to the main stab skin, at the fuselage - is it wrinkled? If it is, or there are smoking rivets, you might have a cracked rib there. Using great care, press up and down on the tip of the stabilizer only enough to just change the position of the fuselage realitive to the ground (do not push harder than that). Is there any sqeaking or "oil canning"? I little oil canning is not unknown, but warrants further inspection. Examine the top wing skins just outboard of the fuel tank covers for any wrinkes. Examine the fuselage skin in the area of the main gear leg attachements for any wrinkles in the skin. Consider the reason for any patches you might see while you're looking. When you are doing this, you are intending to look at the entire external surface of the aircraft. This should take you 10-20 minutes. Also check the security and operation of the nosewheel. grab it and pull and push in all directions - loose? Steer it. with weight on it, the centering cam will prevent the rudder control system from moving, so only the lower nosewheel steering will move. There should be absolutely no freeplay between the steering collar (with the two pushrods going up and back) to the nose wheel fork. Nothing should wiggle. Anything (including the shimmy damper) which wiggles will create the possibility of nosewheel shimmy on the ground. Write down any defects you see. they might not disqualify the aircraft, but you want the inspector you hire next to know you found them, and explain thier significance (cost) to you.
As you enter the cabin, move the pilot's seat it's extreme travel range. Does it move freely? Inspect the portion of the seat rail which is exposed. Are the locking pin holes worn? are there any cracks in the top of the rail (between the holes and the edges)? (you'll have to wipe the rails to inspect). Do the controls move freely? Pull the rudder pedal arms toward you on each side (four total). is there a lot of wiggle in the horizontal rudder bars? While you're under the panel, look up, anything dangling or out of place up there? Is there a CO detector? does it look recently installed? Does it indicate CO?
Check the operation of the starter. It probably still has a "pull clutch" (you have to pull the starter handle toward you about three inches to start the engine). If properly operational, these are excellent for reliability, and low long term cost. With the master off (and the area of the prop confirmed to be clear) does it pull and retract freely? When you turn on the master switch, does the turn co-ordinator have a scary load bearing sound? When you pull the starter handle to starter the engine, does the clutch engage smootly? The stater motor is not energized until the clutch is correctly engaged? (no grinding gear sounds?) Does the enigne start and respond to the throttle well?
Go flying: Does it taxi straight if not steered? Brakes work effectively and evenly left to right? Not soft? While you are taxiing, deliberately find some uneven ground to taxi over. While crossing it, carefully watch the loer edge of the windshield relative to the place where it meets the glare shield. Does the winshield shift left to right relative to the glareshield as the airplane goes over the bumps? In the air, does it fly straight in smooth air? Using suitible practices, stall the plane with the ball right in the middle the whole time. At the stall, does it drop a wing? If you do it again and again, does it drop the same wing each time? Within appropriate operating limits, operate everything (except the fuel valve, Mags, and mixture idle cut off!), does it do what it should?
During landing did it shimmy or pull to one side. After you park, but before shut down, at enigne idle speed live mag check, by turning the key switch all the way off, then on again. did the engine turn off while still turning? (If not, do not touch the prop of this plane for any reason - see later check) Turn the fuel valve off, did the engine begin to stop after about a minute? Don't let it stop yet, turn the fuel back on. At 1200 RPM, pull the mixture out, watch the tach carefully; did the RPM increase a tiny amount before the engine stopped? Once the engine stops, are there any noises from the gyro instruments?
Once out of the aircraft, and it is tied or chocked, and the engine has cooled for five minutes, confirm the mags are turned off, key out, mixture idle cutoff, propeller area clear: Pull the prop through without allowing any part of your (or anyone else's body to enter the prop arc). Do eac of the four strokes seem the same as each other? The prop should seem to "bounce back" each time the prop stops on a compression stroke. These bounces should be more or less the same as each other. If one or more has no bounce back, you probably have a "flat cylinder" $1500.
You've spent at least an hour and a half with the plane now, and have a good sense of it's condition from a pilot's perspective. Any defects you have noticed are noted, for your inspector to consider. One of two failures in the foregoing, are not a "no" right off, but could be an indication of some cost to come.
An inspector will need a full day with the plane, but should not need much more. Having the logbooks in advance will be a help to him.
There are many more things to check, but the foregoing will give you a good idea, and if there are a lot of "failures" of your inspection, consider not going further with the purchse, or negotiating a price reduction, at least to cover the full cost of a very detailed (two - three day long) full inspection.
I'm sure others here can offer their advice too, but this will get you started. Good luck....
Pilot DAR
Moderator
Ace,
Further to my last essay, here is the link to the Canadian Standard which is the default inspection requirement. It will give you an idea of what the inspector should be looking for on your behalf...
Part VI - Standard 625 Appendix B - Maintenance Schedules - Part VI - General Operating and Flight Rules - Canadian Aviation Regulations (CARs) - Regulations - Aviation Safety - Air Transportation - Transport Canada
Further to my last essay, here is the link to the Canadian Standard which is the default inspection requirement. It will give you an idea of what the inspector should be looking for on your behalf...
Part VI - Standard 625 Appendix B - Maintenance Schedules - Part VI - General Operating and Flight Rules - Canadian Aviation Regulations (CARs) - Regulations - Aviation Safety - Air Transportation - Transport Canada
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First Impressions
Well I took it out for a spin yesterday with the owner and the airplane seemed to handle fine, which was a big relief because from its outward appearance I was contemplating whether it was even safe to get in it. I have attached some pics so that you guys can see what I am talking about, and feel free to comment if you spot anything funny.
Appearance:
Rusty, patches of rust everywhere, need a paint job pretty bad.
Ailerons seemed bent/curved up at the edges- suspect this is not some aerodynamic feature of the C150..
Lots of grease/oil residue seeping out of the flaps.
A few bumps and what appears to be a wrinkle? on the tail fin (see pic)
Oil leaking out of engine onto ground. There was a puddle there and I noticed he added a bit of oil (1/2 qt or so) before we went flying. (see pic as well)
He claimed the oil was from the vaccume pump system. I am not mechanically inclined, but something about that seems fishy.
Instrumentation:
Attitude indicator does not function correctly until we gained some altitude (around 2000MSL/AGL..we were over the ocean), It was all lopsided when climbing and did not correct itself till we leveled off at altitude. Useless really.
VOR on the other hand seemed to work..
Overall it wasn't in the shape I expected it to be in, but then again for an asking price of $12,000 for a 1964 C150 maybe I was expecting too much?
I am at this point contemplating having an inspection done on this aircraft, maybe I should just save myself the $300 and go fly for an hour and half...
Thanks to everyone who chipped in, and feel free to make any comments based on the pics you see and the description I gave.
Curved Aileron?
Nosewheel section
horizontal stab
slight wrinkle on the tail section?
Greasy flaps
Appearance:
Rusty, patches of rust everywhere, need a paint job pretty bad.
Ailerons seemed bent/curved up at the edges- suspect this is not some aerodynamic feature of the C150..
Lots of grease/oil residue seeping out of the flaps.
A few bumps and what appears to be a wrinkle? on the tail fin (see pic)
Oil leaking out of engine onto ground. There was a puddle there and I noticed he added a bit of oil (1/2 qt or so) before we went flying. (see pic as well)
He claimed the oil was from the vaccume pump system. I am not mechanically inclined, but something about that seems fishy.
Instrumentation:
Attitude indicator does not function correctly until we gained some altitude (around 2000MSL/AGL..we were over the ocean), It was all lopsided when climbing and did not correct itself till we leveled off at altitude. Useless really.
VOR on the other hand seemed to work..
Overall it wasn't in the shape I expected it to be in, but then again for an asking price of $12,000 for a 1964 C150 maybe I was expecting too much?
I am at this point contemplating having an inspection done on this aircraft, maybe I should just save myself the $300 and go fly for an hour and half...
Thanks to everyone who chipped in, and feel free to make any comments based on the pics you see and the description I gave.
Curved Aileron?
Nosewheel section
horizontal stab
slight wrinkle on the tail section?
Greasy flaps
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Even the 12000Hr C152 I fly quite often isn't even half as bad as that. I'd think hard about it unless you can get the price down even further and fancy a bit of a project.
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$12,000 !, offer him $8000 and you have got a bargain**.
Be prepared to get an engine rebuild (judging by the oil!), general tart up and paint job....say $20,000 and you have a nice little aeroplane....
Believe it or not, even incredibly bad looking aeroplanes can be rebuilt reasonably easily. I bought one that had been crashed and had holes in it, but it is being repaired and will eventually look really good.
** I assume that it has a current annual, all AD's have been complied with? I'm not sure how it would get through an annual looking at some of the hinges and fittings though, so it would be worth checking out the logbooks and where the maintenance was carried out - perhaps it is "dodgey maintenance"?. What is the reg?
Be prepared to get an engine rebuild (judging by the oil!), general tart up and paint job....say $20,000 and you have a nice little aeroplane....
Believe it or not, even incredibly bad looking aeroplanes can be rebuilt reasonably easily. I bought one that had been crashed and had holes in it, but it is being repaired and will eventually look really good.
** I assume that it has a current annual, all AD's have been complied with? I'm not sure how it would get through an annual looking at some of the hinges and fittings though, so it would be worth checking out the logbooks and where the maintenance was carried out - perhaps it is "dodgey maintenance"?. What is the reg?
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Recalling the wreckage I did my PPL in, many UK firms would have let that sort of thing through, but on balance I don't think that plane has seen "maintenance" in years.
AFAIK the one thing which makes an airframe rebuild really unviable is extensive corrosion. I once saw a C150 or 152 in a maintenance firm, being rebuilt totally, but as they opened it more and more they found more and more extensive corrosion and in the end it became unviable to continue with it.
AFAIK the one thing which makes an airframe rebuild really unviable is extensive corrosion. I once saw a C150 or 152 in a maintenance firm, being rebuilt totally, but as they opened it more and more they found more and more extensive corrosion and in the end it became unviable to continue with it.
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Unqualified Opinion
I'm totally unqualified to make a technical judgement on this aircraft, either face to face with it or in the photographs but my gut feeling is that it is one needing very careful consideration.
There is quite a bit of corrosion in the skins, shown by the paint bubbling. The risk with rubbing it down and re-painting is that the corrosion may have gone deep enough to make the remaining good metal too thin to support the loads imposed on it. That skin wrinkle has the appearance of being caused by a blow, a birdstrike perhaps. I don't see rivet lines to internal structure so none there to damage. Washed out ailerons? I haven't been anywhere near a Cessna so can't comment at all on that one. Rusty connection rods are easily replaced and the attitude indicator fault shouldn't be difficult to fix either. Grease can be washed off and new stuff applied. Oil leak - see if you can find out where it is coming from and if it is an engine accessory, that is another easy fix or get professional advice. The trouble is, that aeroplane looks like it hasn't seen proper maintenance for a considerable time, as IO540 says, when you begin to dismantle things to mend them you may find more things to fix. Generally, the deeper you go, the more expensive it is. You have given no indication of mechanical wear which could be another major expense.
If you started your driving career with a really old car you'll know that for a short while it will be your pride and joy but always having to fix it before going anywhere soon makes it into a disappointment and money sink. There have been many thousands of C150s built, save your cash and wait till a good one turns up or invest in a thorough, independant survey and come to a compromise price with the current owner. Is there any prospect of buying in the States and having someone fly it down for you, or are the rules too inflexible? Regards, Aerials
There is quite a bit of corrosion in the skins, shown by the paint bubbling. The risk with rubbing it down and re-painting is that the corrosion may have gone deep enough to make the remaining good metal too thin to support the loads imposed on it. That skin wrinkle has the appearance of being caused by a blow, a birdstrike perhaps. I don't see rivet lines to internal structure so none there to damage. Washed out ailerons? I haven't been anywhere near a Cessna so can't comment at all on that one. Rusty connection rods are easily replaced and the attitude indicator fault shouldn't be difficult to fix either. Grease can be washed off and new stuff applied. Oil leak - see if you can find out where it is coming from and if it is an engine accessory, that is another easy fix or get professional advice. The trouble is, that aeroplane looks like it hasn't seen proper maintenance for a considerable time, as IO540 says, when you begin to dismantle things to mend them you may find more things to fix. Generally, the deeper you go, the more expensive it is. You have given no indication of mechanical wear which could be another major expense.
If you started your driving career with a really old car you'll know that for a short while it will be your pride and joy but always having to fix it before going anywhere soon makes it into a disappointment and money sink. There have been many thousands of C150s built, save your cash and wait till a good one turns up or invest in a thorough, independant survey and come to a compromise price with the current owner. Is there any prospect of buying in the States and having someone fly it down for you, or are the rules too inflexible? Regards, Aerials
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Ace,
Some of what you have pictured is serious, some is not a big deal.
The attitude indicator, and oil under the engine may be associated problems, as the aircraft might have a "wet" (oil) vacuum pump. The oil separator for these can fail, or have poor hose connections, and leak oil. Not serious. Wet pumps are excellent, when working well, but this one, or the separator might be in trouble. The attitude indicator might be original, and if so, should not be consdiered repairable. Bear in mind, that aircraft is not required to have an attitude indicator, so you could just have it removed. The vacuum pump will have to work for the DG though. (If the plane has instead, venturi tubes on the side, it's a different situation).
The ailerons are normal and fine. The red fairings on the H stab do that all the time, no problem. Greasy flap rollers look messy, but are probably fine. Changing them is not a big deal if they are seized.
The dents in the belly skin ahead of the main gear legs are no problem
So far, nothing is a no go, though do do have some maintenance cost ahead of you already....
As for the oily nose strut, I would do the following: Remove the cowls, and clean the engine, inside of the cowls, and nose strut/wheel very well. Once clean, let it dry while you have lunch, and go back and have a good look around in there, and take some photos. Telling you what to look for in there is beyond the scope of a post here. Once clean and dry, put the cowls back on, and go fly it for 30 minutes. Land back, and as soon as you can, get the cowls back off, and look to see where there is fresh oil leaking. It could be serious, or meaningless, and you won't know which, 'till you know where the oil is coming from. The loss of oil in and of itself, is not a big deal, as long as you always have enough (the O-200 will not be hurt down to 3 Qts, as long as you don't overheat it). If you can see where the oil is leaking from, post a photo of that place here. It may be something you just learn to live with, many do!
The corrosion is alarming. What you have pictured, can probably be cleaned up, and repainted adequately, but it would really concern me that there is more, in more crtitcal places, which you are not seeing. a very thorough internal inspection of this plane is a must. U.S. built 150's never had internal corrosion protection, so it can be a problem. Where you see corrosion around rivet heads, it could be local, or much worse, that can be the final stages of internal corrosion coming out! If corrosion like that on the aileron is found inside the wings, or fuselage, this plane is junk, walk away. Other places, like wing struts, can and must be replaced. There are lots of used serviceable parts out there.
The wrinkle on the underside of the aft tailboom could be pretty serious. Not so much for itself, but more for what else got damaged putting it there. The tails of 150's tend to be a little delicate. whatever event put that wrinkle might have done more damage elsewhere. The corrosion inspection, which is a must, should also turn up any other associated damage in the tail if it is there. Replacing that skin is a big job. If I owned that plane though, I would consider a structural repair involving an internal stiffener there.
I do completely agree with Englishal, if the owner will take $8000 or even $10000 (on the ** conditons), and there is no more serious corrosion than what you have seen thus far, it's a bargain. it will never be a cream puff ever again, but if you fly it 500 hours, and sell it for $6000 (even parted out as a non-flying pane) you still did okay! This would not be a plane I would invest in hull insurance for.
Let us know how you make out...
Pilot DAR
Some of what you have pictured is serious, some is not a big deal.
The attitude indicator, and oil under the engine may be associated problems, as the aircraft might have a "wet" (oil) vacuum pump. The oil separator for these can fail, or have poor hose connections, and leak oil. Not serious. Wet pumps are excellent, when working well, but this one, or the separator might be in trouble. The attitude indicator might be original, and if so, should not be consdiered repairable. Bear in mind, that aircraft is not required to have an attitude indicator, so you could just have it removed. The vacuum pump will have to work for the DG though. (If the plane has instead, venturi tubes on the side, it's a different situation).
The ailerons are normal and fine. The red fairings on the H stab do that all the time, no problem. Greasy flap rollers look messy, but are probably fine. Changing them is not a big deal if they are seized.
The dents in the belly skin ahead of the main gear legs are no problem
So far, nothing is a no go, though do do have some maintenance cost ahead of you already....
As for the oily nose strut, I would do the following: Remove the cowls, and clean the engine, inside of the cowls, and nose strut/wheel very well. Once clean, let it dry while you have lunch, and go back and have a good look around in there, and take some photos. Telling you what to look for in there is beyond the scope of a post here. Once clean and dry, put the cowls back on, and go fly it for 30 minutes. Land back, and as soon as you can, get the cowls back off, and look to see where there is fresh oil leaking. It could be serious, or meaningless, and you won't know which, 'till you know where the oil is coming from. The loss of oil in and of itself, is not a big deal, as long as you always have enough (the O-200 will not be hurt down to 3 Qts, as long as you don't overheat it). If you can see where the oil is leaking from, post a photo of that place here. It may be something you just learn to live with, many do!
The corrosion is alarming. What you have pictured, can probably be cleaned up, and repainted adequately, but it would really concern me that there is more, in more crtitcal places, which you are not seeing. a very thorough internal inspection of this plane is a must. U.S. built 150's never had internal corrosion protection, so it can be a problem. Where you see corrosion around rivet heads, it could be local, or much worse, that can be the final stages of internal corrosion coming out! If corrosion like that on the aileron is found inside the wings, or fuselage, this plane is junk, walk away. Other places, like wing struts, can and must be replaced. There are lots of used serviceable parts out there.
The wrinkle on the underside of the aft tailboom could be pretty serious. Not so much for itself, but more for what else got damaged putting it there. The tails of 150's tend to be a little delicate. whatever event put that wrinkle might have done more damage elsewhere. The corrosion inspection, which is a must, should also turn up any other associated damage in the tail if it is there. Replacing that skin is a big job. If I owned that plane though, I would consider a structural repair involving an internal stiffener there.
I do completely agree with Englishal, if the owner will take $8000 or even $10000 (on the ** conditons), and there is no more serious corrosion than what you have seen thus far, it's a bargain. it will never be a cream puff ever again, but if you fly it 500 hours, and sell it for $6000 (even parted out as a non-flying pane) you still did okay! This would not be a plane I would invest in hull insurance for.
Let us know how you make out...
Pilot DAR
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Ace,
Before you focus too much on this particular plane and its problems, step back a bit and ask yourself the following questions:
1. Why do you fly? Are you hour building or training for a commercial career, are you flying PPL-style just for fun or for moving about (possibly for business reasons)? What are your flying ambitions/flying style in the near future?
2. What sort of an airplane would be compatible with your flying style? Do you need a two-seater or a four-seater or bigger? Does the aircraft need to be IFR certified?
3. How many hours do you expect to fly annually, specifically on the aircraft type you selected in question 2?
4. Are you able to rent a more or less suitable aircraft for your flying needs in the vicinity, or would it be cheaper to buy a share in such an aircraft, or a full aircraft outright?
5. Would you want to buy a recently-refurbished or new aircraft for big bucks, where you can expect little or no non-routine costs in the future, or would you want to buy a clapped-out aircraft for very little, which might turn into a money sinkhole in the next few years?
8.000 or 10.000 dollars sounds like a bargain but if you spend that same amount, or more, in getting it refurbished and then find out you fly it for 20 hours before moving on to the RHS of a 737, it's still a very expensive proposition.
BTW here in mainland Europe we would be very happy to pay $185 for an hours worth of C172, including instructor. I pay about 180 euros wet for such an aircraft, without instructor. The UK is even more expensive.
Before you focus too much on this particular plane and its problems, step back a bit and ask yourself the following questions:
1. Why do you fly? Are you hour building or training for a commercial career, are you flying PPL-style just for fun or for moving about (possibly for business reasons)? What are your flying ambitions/flying style in the near future?
2. What sort of an airplane would be compatible with your flying style? Do you need a two-seater or a four-seater or bigger? Does the aircraft need to be IFR certified?
3. How many hours do you expect to fly annually, specifically on the aircraft type you selected in question 2?
4. Are you able to rent a more or less suitable aircraft for your flying needs in the vicinity, or would it be cheaper to buy a share in such an aircraft, or a full aircraft outright?
5. Would you want to buy a recently-refurbished or new aircraft for big bucks, where you can expect little or no non-routine costs in the future, or would you want to buy a clapped-out aircraft for very little, which might turn into a money sinkhole in the next few years?
8.000 or 10.000 dollars sounds like a bargain but if you spend that same amount, or more, in getting it refurbished and then find out you fly it for 20 hours before moving on to the RHS of a 737, it's still a very expensive proposition.
BTW here in mainland Europe we would be very happy to pay $185 for an hours worth of C172, including instructor. I pay about 180 euros wet for such an aircraft, without instructor. The UK is even more expensive.