Solent transit at night
Thread Starter
Solent transit at night
Yesterday afternoon, returning to Shoreham from Dunkeswell in a PA28, I requested a transit of the Solent CTA/CTR. The controller asked if I was VFR or IFR. I replied VFR although technically I know you can't fly under Visual Flight Rules at night - but you can fly in VMC if you comply with IFR Rules 29 and 30 (min height & crusing levels above 3000ft). She said that because it was only a few minutes to "Night" (16:25), I was to remain outside CAS, as she couldn't guarantee clearance from IFR traffic. She said something about maybe doing it under a SVFR clearance, but I wasn't sure if she was prompting me to ask for SVFR. In the end she asked me to stay outside controlled airspace and to route via Lyndhurst, which I did and I transitted at 1500' under the CTA via Stoney Cross and Beaulieu, so no problem there.
Three things puzzled me - one, does my night rating not enable me to transit D Class zones "VFR" at night, secondly, should I simply have asked for a SVFR at the outset, and thirdly, in one of the earlier exchanges she asked me to remain clear of controlled airspace (which I fully understand is the standard reply) but to "report Totton" - which is in the CTA/CTR. So had I flown on to Totton, surely I would have infringed CAS?
I've had a look at the NATS document published on the Solent, I've looked through my Air Law regarding my Night rating and SVFRs - the only thing I can think of was that SVFRs are usually low level affairs, and thus I wouldn't be sufficiently separated from IFR traffic. Or was it a visibility thing - I could see lights on the ground for miles, but does the >10km for an SVFR not apply at night. I'm sure there is a simple answer.
I'd be interested in any comments - but the controller was very pleasant and professional - so no qualms there.
Thanks
Nik
(Mods - feel free to move to "ATC" if you think more appropriate)
Three things puzzled me - one, does my night rating not enable me to transit D Class zones "VFR" at night, secondly, should I simply have asked for a SVFR at the outset, and thirdly, in one of the earlier exchanges she asked me to remain clear of controlled airspace (which I fully understand is the standard reply) but to "report Totton" - which is in the CTA/CTR. So had I flown on to Totton, surely I would have infringed CAS?
I've had a look at the NATS document published on the Solent, I've looked through my Air Law regarding my Night rating and SVFRs - the only thing I can think of was that SVFRs are usually low level affairs, and thus I wouldn't be sufficiently separated from IFR traffic. Or was it a visibility thing - I could see lights on the ground for miles, but does the >10km for an SVFR not apply at night. I'm sure there is a simple answer.
I'd be interested in any comments - but the controller was very pleasant and professional - so no qualms there.
Thanks
Nik
(Mods - feel free to move to "ATC" if you think more appropriate)
Last edited by beatnik; 7th Dec 2009 at 21:36.
Join Date: May 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 796
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
(In the UK at least) there is no VFR at night, inside or outside CAS.
To transit the Solent Class D at night you'd need a SVFR or IFR clearance.
Note that SVFR is only available in Control Zones i.e. the CAS must start at ground level, which can be a limiting factor in what levels are available.
Also, SVFR must be given standard separation from other SVFR and/or IFR. This would probably be 3nm laterally and/or 1,000ft vertically in the Solent area.
MATS Pt 1 states SVFR flights must not hinder IFR flights so the separation requirement is the main issue, it may be difficult to get you where you want to go and be able to do so without hindering the IFR traffic.
Assuming you can accept it*, asking for IFR might be the better option at night.
* be prepared for vectoring so I'd suggest you only ask for IFR if you have an IMCR or IR (and with the IMCR only if you're sure there are no other possible airspace issues like being potentially vectored into Class A).
To transit the Solent Class D at night you'd need a SVFR or IFR clearance.
Note that SVFR is only available in Control Zones i.e. the CAS must start at ground level, which can be a limiting factor in what levels are available.
Also, SVFR must be given standard separation from other SVFR and/or IFR. This would probably be 3nm laterally and/or 1,000ft vertically in the Solent area.
MATS Pt 1 states SVFR flights must not hinder IFR flights so the separation requirement is the main issue, it may be difficult to get you where you want to go and be able to do so without hindering the IFR traffic.
Assuming you can accept it*, asking for IFR might be the better option at night.
* be prepared for vectoring so I'd suggest you only ask for IFR if you have an IMCR or IR (and with the IMCR only if you're sure there are no other possible airspace issues like being potentially vectored into Class A).
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: n/a
Posts: 1,425
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not sure if I misinterpreted something last week, but Solent seem to have a policy of only allowing an SVFR transit if there is NO other traffic at all in the zone. Thus with a priority SVFR transit last week there were no departures or arrivals allowed for about 5 - 10 minutes.
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: London
Posts: 320
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Their CTR only extends to 2,000ft. Surely, if there's no cloud below 2,000 feet, you're better off asking for an IFR transit, else you're limiting yourself (and them) to all the constraints of an SVFR for little reason? If they want to send you up/out into the CTA, SVFR isn't going to be an option and you'd have to do it IFR/not at all anyway.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Southern England
Posts: 41
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I dont think it matters to Solent if its day or night - I have been transiting that airspace for many years (or at least trying to) and they have to be the least helpful unit in the country - when they bother to return your calls.
I even spoke to some of the commercial schools at Bournemouth about this when I was training there and they have the same problems. Southampton (Solent) just dont want to help anyone other than scheduled stuff in my opinion
At one time (up to 12 months ago) I used to sit and add up all the airspace busts reported and Solent was always at the top - probably had something to do with the fact they dont answer you when you call and when they do you are almost on top of their airspace which probably is one of the reasons they kept getting 'intruders'
I have a twin now so have no worries when I go south of their airspace by a few miles.
Been waiting for 30 years to say that and sadly in my opion it hasnt changed in all that time!
I even spoke to some of the commercial schools at Bournemouth about this when I was training there and they have the same problems. Southampton (Solent) just dont want to help anyone other than scheduled stuff in my opinion
At one time (up to 12 months ago) I used to sit and add up all the airspace busts reported and Solent was always at the top - probably had something to do with the fact they dont answer you when you call and when they do you are almost on top of their airspace which probably is one of the reasons they kept getting 'intruders'
I have a twin now so have no worries when I go south of their airspace by a few miles.
Been waiting for 30 years to say that and sadly in my opion it hasnt changed in all that time!
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: FL260
Age: 43
Posts: 159
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ok, at night with no IR or IMC you are required to maintain VMC but fly in accordance with IFR two biggest things to remember here is
1. MSA (1000ft above highest obstacle within 5nm of track).
2. Quadrilateral rule (fly the correct level depending on your track).
As you found out you can only fly inside controlled airspace with SVFR clearance at night.
Some good ground school when being taught you night qualification should clarify these points but if you need to refresh refer to the ANO.
Sounds like to controller was doing her best to prompt...She cant tell you what service to ask for and cant give you a transit if you don't ask for the correct clearance.
Happy night flying, I love it personally!
1. MSA (1000ft above highest obstacle within 5nm of track).
2. Quadrilateral rule (fly the correct level depending on your track).
As you found out you can only fly inside controlled airspace with SVFR clearance at night.
Some good ground school when being taught you night qualification should clarify these points but if you need to refresh refer to the ANO.
Sounds like to controller was doing her best to prompt...She cant tell you what service to ask for and cant give you a transit if you don't ask for the correct clearance.
Happy night flying, I love it personally!
Avoid imitations
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,578
Received 435 Likes
on
229 Posts
Vone Rotate,
But don't forget the difference below 3,001 ft:
(From CAP 393)
But don't forget the difference below 3,001 ft:
(From CAP 393)
Minimum height
33.—(1) Subject to paragraphs (2) and (3), an aircraft shall not fly at a height of less than 1,000
feet above the highest obstacle within a distance of 5 nautical miles of the aircraft unless—
(a) it is necessary for the aircraft to do so in order to take off or land;
(b) the aircraft flies on a route notified for the purposes of this rule;
(c) the aircraft has been otherwise authorised by the competent authority in relation to the
area over which the aircraft is flying; or
(d) the aircraft flies at an altitude not exceeding 3,000 feet above mean sea level and remains
clear of cloud and with the surface in sight and in a flight visibility of at least 800 metres.
33.—(1) Subject to paragraphs (2) and (3), an aircraft shall not fly at a height of less than 1,000
feet above the highest obstacle within a distance of 5 nautical miles of the aircraft unless—
(a) it is necessary for the aircraft to do so in order to take off or land;
(b) the aircraft flies on a route notified for the purposes of this rule;
(c) the aircraft has been otherwise authorised by the competent authority in relation to the
area over which the aircraft is flying; or
(d) the aircraft flies at an altitude not exceeding 3,000 feet above mean sea level and remains
clear of cloud and with the surface in sight and in a flight visibility of at least 800 metres.
Thread Starter
Thanks for all the responses - I think I've "got it" now, but I'm going to track down my old instructor and do some refresher learning.
I, too, love flying at night - so want to make sure I'm doing it right
I, too, love flying at night - so want to make sure I'm doing it right
Last edited by beatnik; 9th Dec 2009 at 23:44. Reason: Following sage advice from Shy Torque
Avoid imitations
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,578
Received 435 Likes
on
229 Posts
Beatnik,
Two points:
1) Look at para d in my previous post and think 500 foot rule.
2) Best not to admit your misdemeanours on a public website, especially this one, where there are many waiting to pounce.
Two points:
1) Look at para d in my previous post and think 500 foot rule.
2) Best not to admit your misdemeanours on a public website, especially this one, where there are many waiting to pounce.
