CFIT
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Statistically you can hit a hill in any direction - except right behind you 
This is why a tight 180 is statistically the best option - if you know nothing certain about the topography.
If OTOH you are sure that you are only just above the terrain, a zoom climb from cruise might gain you 1000ft and take you to a safe level.
However, psychology comes into this heavily. It is easy to just press on and end up with no options. Nobody willingly flies into a hill, yet many do.
This is why a tight 180 is statistically the best option - if you know nothing certain about the topography.
If OTOH you are sure that you are only just above the terrain, a zoom climb from cruise might gain you 1000ft and take you to a safe level.
However, psychology comes into this heavily. It is easy to just press on and end up with no options. Nobody willingly flies into a hill, yet many do.
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Foxmouth
We are talking about being in cloud inadvertanly or whatever so you wouldnt see up your valley!
You are already in a high risk situation low level in IMC surrounded by high terrain.
The best way out IMO is to try and remain in as near as one spot until you have climbed above the MSA.
i presume if your in cloud that you are IFR and IMC capable? If you cannot handle a turning climb without being disorientated then maybe you shouldnt be there or need to go back for further training.
Valleys have a habit of branching off or coming to a dead end so dont presume a climb ahead is safe.
If you can see up your valley remain that way and if forced down too low do your 180 back to where you know there are better conditions.
Pace
We are talking about being in cloud inadvertanly or whatever so you wouldnt see up your valley!
You are already in a high risk situation low level in IMC surrounded by high terrain.
The best way out IMO is to try and remain in as near as one spot until you have climbed above the MSA.
i presume if your in cloud that you are IFR and IMC capable? If you cannot handle a turning climb without being disorientated then maybe you shouldnt be there or need to go back for further training.
Valleys have a habit of branching off or coming to a dead end so dont presume a climb ahead is safe.
If you can see up your valley remain that way and if forced down too low do your 180 back to where you know there are better conditions.
Pace
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i presume if your in cloud that you are IFR and IMC capable?
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Wow! Some pretty dangerous advice there Maoraigh!
I think maybe you should modify or withdraw your posts! Someone who finds themself in the situation you describe MAY be lucky and MAY get away with it but pilots should never play Russian Roulette...should they? I'm with 172 driver 100% on this. Cheers anyway bm
ps The (otherwise) brilliant Neil Williams found himself in a valley flying a Heinkel 1-11 ... the mountains got higher as the valley narrowed - until he had neither the performance to climb-out nor the width to turn. He persihed of course.
ps The (otherwise) brilliant Neil Williams found himself in a valley flying a Heinkel 1-11 ... the mountains got higher as the valley narrowed - until he had neither the performance to climb-out nor the width to turn. He persihed of course.
Last edited by BoeingMEL; 21st Oct 2009 at 15:41.
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Maoraigh1,
One of our instructors discovered power lines across the valley doing that. He was lucky to survive and even managed to fly the damaged aircraft back to base!
DO.
One of our instructors discovered power lines across the valley doing that. He was lucky to survive and even managed to fly the damaged aircraft back to base!
DO.
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To clarify: If I can't see ahead, or do a 180, I said I will put the plane down. I will not fly at the height at which powerlines pylons are, and note where they cross a valley or water at greater height.
The most dangerous advice is to climb, in cloud, in hilly country. To suggest a spiral climb in cloud is to suggest suicide.
The most dangerous advice is to climb, in cloud, in hilly country. To suggest a spiral climb in cloud is to suggest suicide.
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To suggest a spiral climb in cloud is to suggest suicide.
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A precautionary landing (what a lovely euphemism) is what is taught (as a theory) in the PPL, and while it is going to be the safest option in the "totally stuffed by weather all around" scenario, it goes so severely against pilot psychology that very few people actually do it. Very few owners will do it because of the 4-digit cost of carting the plane out on a trailer, and that assumes a perfect landing. It may also be highly dangerous, depending on the terrain.
Far better to plan the flight at/above the MSA, and keep an escape route open at all times.
Flights that are actually executed at/above the MSA, with a turnback if unable to maintain VMC, are extremely unlikely to result in a total loss of escape options. It is the people who fly below the MSA, say 500ft above the ground, who get squeezed between the terrain and the clouds.
Yet, flying below the MSA is routine practice among VFR pilots, most of whom never do an altitude plan. The MSA business was the one good thing I was taught in the PPL and it never occured to me to do anything else when enroute. I'd rather fly in IMC....
Far better to plan the flight at/above the MSA, and keep an escape route open at all times.
Flights that are actually executed at/above the MSA, with a turnback if unable to maintain VMC, are extremely unlikely to result in a total loss of escape options. It is the people who fly below the MSA, say 500ft above the ground, who get squeezed between the terrain and the clouds.
Yet, flying below the MSA is routine practice among VFR pilots, most of whom never do an altitude plan. The MSA business was the one good thing I was taught in the PPL and it never occured to me to do anything else when enroute. I'd rather fly in IMC....
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...but if you've read all the doomy articles that say that if you fly out-of-practice into IMC the wings will fall off (I think I read somewhere that the average pre-spiral-dive/wing departure/survival time for unprepared/unpracticed/unexpected IMC was about 75 seconds) then a precautionary landing onto that nice smooth-looking (though in all likelihood boggy and rock-strewn) valley floor must appear to be an attractive proposition.
I'm not a huge fan of the 180* turn unless you're certain that you're clear of terrain and if the guys in the vid had tried a right 'U' turn I suspect they'd have had a lot worse than a wrecked gorse bush.
Frankly, I'd have thought that when the deck met the sky for them the only way was up. Get above the MSA ASAP and then sort it out - but then a) I'm in a comfy chair at the moment, b) I'm not getting hammered by downdraught rolling off the hilltops and (perhaps most importantly) c) it's a piece of cake to keep out of aeronautical trouble when you're not in an airplane/aeroplane.
I'm not a huge fan of the 180* turn unless you're certain that you're clear of terrain and if the guys in the vid had tried a right 'U' turn I suspect they'd have had a lot worse than a wrecked gorse bush.
Frankly, I'd have thought that when the deck met the sky for them the only way was up. Get above the MSA ASAP and then sort it out - but then a) I'm in a comfy chair at the moment, b) I'm not getting hammered by downdraught rolling off the hilltops and (perhaps most importantly) c) it's a piece of cake to keep out of aeronautical trouble when you're not in an airplane/aeroplane.
So far I'd say IO540's modus operandi least likely to get you and pax killed.
Far better to plan the flight at/above the MSA, and keep an escape route open at all times.
Best deal of all is in a helicopter moving slowly. I've had the privilege of observing an expert from the left seat working around scud in mountainous valleys. 70 kt. was as fast as he flew that day and he had a few miles viz. How fast was the Bonanza driver flying?
Loads of people get killed every year doing this. It requires expert local knowledge, very good aircraft handling (slow speed turns, etc), and appreciation of local weather conditions.
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To clarify: If I can't see ahead, or do a 180, I said I will put the plane down. I will not fly at the height at which powerlines pylons are, and note where they cross a valley or water at greater height.
Could have something to do with "hilly" vs "mountaneous"; when MSA is well above 10000 ft, or when MSA (in the IFR sense) is 5000, cloud base is 4500 and valley floors are 2000, going through valleys is of course the way to do it. Obviously you need to know what you're doing.
Trying to squeeze through the 200 ft gap between the stratus clouds and the South Downs is something else entirely; maybe that is what some of the outraged posters here have in mind.
"You can't fly in mountains because you have neither an IR nor oxygen" is not a helpful answer IMHO. Of course, I would love to have those things!
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I had a look around an aeroplane that made a "precautionary" landing. The engine was losing oil, but running perfectly fine so the pilot elected to land in a field that was too short. It trashed the aeroplane and nearly killed the pilot who spent weeks in hospital. Looking at the remains it is a wonder that they weren't killed, even the panel was concave.
I'd put the GPS into the TAWS page, and climb, keeping the red bits out of my route of flight.....Actually long before this situation I'd have climbed to a safe level and continued IFR
I'd put the GPS into the TAWS page, and climb, keeping the red bits out of my route of flight.....Actually long before this situation I'd have climbed to a safe level and continued IFR
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To clarify: If I can't see ahead, or do a 180, I said I will put the plane down. I will not fly at the height at which powerlines pylons are, and note where they cross a valley or water at greater height.
One by one:
- seeing ahead: fine if you fly through a gap in mountains or a very short valley, where you can actually see the other side - and, importantly, know there is not another valley hiding there!
- do a 180: fine, IF valley is wide enough and IF the wx hasn't closed in behind you. Doesn't seem to work too well in practice, though, as by the time most pilots realize they are up the creek - they literally are, and there's not enough space left.
- put the plane down: laughable. This whole idea of 'precautionary landing' only works if you have options. Examples: having a line of CBs across your path and not enough room to divert. Find a little airfield, land, wait. Approaching mountains, find the wx cr*p, cannot outclimb - turn around and land somewhere. 'Putting the plane down' in a mountain valley in a distress situation ? Funnily, these valleys don't tend to have airfields (or any fields, for that matter). Think rocks and bog and trees.
- not fly at pylon height: great idea in flat country. Not such a great idea in mountains, where power cables, and cablecars span valleys at any height. The VFR charts of Alpine countries have the bigger ones - but there are loads of smaller installations that will get you just as well.
I am not saying you cannot fly through valleys. Of course you can and in some situations it is the only way to get to the other side. However, you need to understand what you're attempting to do, have a thorough preflight briefing and make notes of possible 180-turning points along your way.
However, the safe bet is ALWAYS to stay on top of the mountains, above MSA. In aviation, height (above ground) is your friend !
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totally stuffed by weather all around" scenario, it goes so severely against pilot psychology that very few people actually do it
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I think all that really comes out of a very well worn discussion is that flying in mountains is a specialist skill. It can be done, and it can be done safely, in just the same way you can scud run entirely safely. The danger is in suggesting it is for everyone - and anyone. It requires experience, skill and training.
As to getting caught below the base with no where to go.
My view is this. If you have done some instrument flying and feel capable of executing a climb to MSA then it is an option worth considering. You need to understand that you might not be able to climb into VMC and you also need to understand that as soon as you are above the MSA you need help. Get on the radio and ask for it.
If you have never done any instrument flying at all then really your own option is to land. It might not be pretty. However if you enter cloud more than likely the outcome will be worse. I am afraid it comes down to the lesser of two evils.
As to getting caught below the base with no where to go.
My view is this. If you have done some instrument flying and feel capable of executing a climb to MSA then it is an option worth considering. You need to understand that you might not be able to climb into VMC and you also need to understand that as soon as you are above the MSA you need help. Get on the radio and ask for it.
If you have never done any instrument flying at all then really your own option is to land. It might not be pretty. However if you enter cloud more than likely the outcome will be worse. I am afraid it comes down to the lesser of two evils.
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He would have flown around in the valley until fuel exhaustion, the weather being so bad with no escape route. The only avenue open to him he thought was to make a controlled "landing" into the canopy of the 150 foot forest and hope for the best. "Landing" completed the aircraft fell to the forest floor and all escaped with nothing more than scratches. They were subsequently winched out by one of our helos.
A genuine free fall through 150ft will totally wreck the airframe and everybody inside, so I think the reality was a bit different on this one.
This is the worst-case scenario; a pilot with zero IMC skills. This is why I think nobody should go flying anywhere unless they can fly (simply) in IMC.