CFIT

[englishal]

99% of private pilots do not have an instrument qualification - so promising as a climb to MSA appears it is simply not a viable option for the vast majority of private pilots.

Probably more like 40-50% of US "private" flyer's (i.e. those flying for fun, regardless of licence type) have an IR, and a good proportion of UK private flyer's have an IMC rating as a minimum.

This video was made in the USA, and these idiots were flying a more than capable aeroplane in IMC so I'd assume one held and instrument qualification and that they just didn't / couldn't get an IFR clearance. Which brings one more point - rules. If I was in that situation, screw the rules, I'd just climb, even if it meant busting airspace.

178 seconds is effectively referring to "no gyro" - or someone who has no idea how to interpret them. I'd imagine a PPL who has a working AI would probably stand a better chance of survival above MSA than scud running in valleys at 100 kts.

[Runaway Gun]

Never let rules get in the way of saving your life.

Take whatever action you need, then if you have a free moment, squawk emergency, put out a mayday or whatever works, but don't sit around worrying about broken rules.

[Bla Bla Bla]

Pace,

I respect your flying experience but I'm afraid Scotland although very rough terrain it is not really a big mountain environment, however it does have plenty of **** weather, used to live, fly and climb there. As someone said earlier flying IFR in a mountain region does not count for bugger all in terms of mountain flying experience.

Come to NZ and you can see what it is like to have huge mountains towering above you with weather that traps you in seconds and down drafts that the local ATR 72's struggle to deal with.

I know you think I am straying from the point but having actually operated in those conditions in bloody huge mountains allot it is quite simply about not getting into it rather than how to get out of it.

And as you said you wanted know what I would do well here it is, I would turn around before in happened. If it was an extremely crappy day I would drink coffee on the ground and roll my eye's at anyone apart from the local helicopter rescue guys who took off into it.

If some of you are interested in mountain flying the best book I found was: Flying the Mountains by Fletcher Anderson.

Pace, I don't want to get into a tit for tat as Pprune always goes this way. happy flying.

[Pace]

Come to NZ and you can see what it is like to have huge mountains towering above you with weather that traps you in seconds and down drafts that the local ATR 72's struggle to deal with.

Bla Bla Bla

The stupid thing is that we usually hold the same opinions with the ones that we are arguing with maybe just not clear with each other and coming from slightly different angles

I too have flown a lot over mountains in destinations around the Alps and Pyrennies and landed business jets at locations like St Moritz, Lugano, Chambery, LJLJ (Can never spell Lubliajana as well as ferrying around big chunks of the world.

The point here is we are not really talking about 10000 plus mountains but being below any piece of cumulus granitus which can equally do total damage if its sticking in a cloud at 1500 feet as at 15000 feet.

Infact the higher the mountains the more important it becomes to spiral up vertically should anyone ever be in the unlikely and unfortunate position of being in cloud, out of sight of the ground and unsure of position amidst high terrain.

How would a PPL ever get into that situation? unbelievable but it does happen!

Pilot X was on a fishing holiday and was flying his 1970 Piper home the 300 nm. She was an old bird which had an old trimble GPS fitted.
Pilot X checked the weather which was good for his departure and arrival at his destination. he held a lapsed IMCR but was happy to trundle back VFR.

His route ran through 100 nm of hills and mountains ranging from 1500 to 4500feet. Pilot X had to be at an important work meeting the next morning and had overstayed his time fishing.

At first all was fine. he cruised happily along under a 2500 foot cloudbase and fairly good vis.

Approaching the hills ahead he was alarmed that the visibility had dropped and that some of the hills ahead were bathed in cloud.

"Never mind its localised he thought. Press on and things will improve". He knew the weather at his destination was good so no problem.

The visibility got worse and Pilot X was finding it harder to plot his route along the vallies. he was now down at 1200-1500 feet keeping VFR below cloud.

The vis was now bad and pilot X became more alarmed as wisps of scud cloud floated past underneith the aircraft.

He should turn back but he had to be at the meeting and Oh how he would kick himself if 10 miles ahead there was CAVOK.

Pilot X looked down through the scud trying to pick up landmarks as it got thicker.

Now his eyes were glued to the map on his lap. He looked up as he felt G to find the aircraft turning and pure white through the windows.
My God he thought I am in solid cloud at 1200 feet.................

WHAT WOULD YOU DO IN HIS SITUATION? Okay he is a complete idiot but there are plenty about!

Pace

[belowradar]

Pilot X is in an old bird and is not current on IMC flying so this is what he should do based on the scenario given.....

1 - Plan a VFR only flight with landing alternatives and VFR escape routes for the flight

2 - Definitely not press on hoping that weather is localised but have a clear strategy in mind for deteriorating weather and viz

3 - Execute plan B as soon as it look necessary

4 - Bear in mind that a precautionary landing (albeit with limited choices) may be preferable to dying by hitting the side of the valley

He / She should keep it VFR only and have sensible minima in mind which are more conservative than normal low level flying.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Can never spell Lubliajana

Easy! - My log book has it spelt B - R - N - I - K.

[Maoraigh1]

IMC Rating

How many PPLs who qualify for an IMC rating do enough instrument flying to keep current? (I don't mean keep the IMC legal - I mean regular instrument flying to avoid rust). I let mine lapse years ago, although then I had a share in an instrument capable aircraft, as I realised I was not going to fly instrument frequently enough.

[gasax]

I can only concur. Of all the private pilots I know not one has a current IMC, three (out of the 10) definitely had an IMC at some time, but let it lapse years ago.

I doubt any of us would be up to a tight spiral climb and thirty minute transit with potentially an IFR arrival. I'd like to think I could manage - but then I'd also like to think I'm handsome, rich and irresistable - then I wake up!!!

[englishal]

Someone who has become uncurrent but has done Instrument training is unlikely to die "within 175 seconds" when flying into a cloud, unless they also have a gyro failure. With a working AI basic attitude instrument flying is not rocket science and if one set cruise power and just concentrated on the AI then likely one would survive.

[Runaway Gun]

Fair point. But now throw in the factors of map reading, ascertaining the MSA, possibly scrambling for a frequency, and sheer terror of fear of possibly hitting cumulo-granite, and see what happens to the scan then.

[IO540]

This is where a decent big-screen (not one of the little x96 Garmins) GPS comes in. You can see where you are clearly at all times, and can concentrate on the instrument scan.

[Pace]

but then I'd also like to think I'm handsome, rich and irresistable - then I wake up!!!

Gasax

Shucks you have ruined it for me I was sure you were the guy who played the Captain surrounded by the unlikely to be Virgin Airstewardesses (Cabin crew) on that Virgin TV ad?

As a tip to those who are out of practice or who cannot fly enough on instruments to keep current Microsoft Flight Simulator or one of the other instrument flying programmes for sale are an excellent tool to keep you up to speed. You can even practice tight spiral climbs

Pace

[mary meagher]

Now there's an excellent idea, Pace. Everybody who contributed to this thread do a bit of spiral ascending on a computer. I used to have an IR, infrequently refreshed, and a courtesy IMC to go with it but nobody would let me play in the airspace so I said to heck with it and stay VFR.

And go mountain scraping in gliders in Wales (Talgarth). I could tell you some interesting stories about flying into terrain up there, never mind just flying into IMC. Friend of mine managed to land his K6 on the only bit of furze that wasn't studded with rocks, took half the gliding club and the local mountain rescue chaps all next weekend to trek it down in bits.

Qualified as a very good landing because he was able to fly it again.....

[Pace]

And go mountain scraping in gliders in Wales (Talgarth). I could tell you some interesting stories about flying into terrain up there

Mary

I think we could both tell each other interesting stories about those areas I even know some of the sheep by name

Pace

[172driver]

I even know some of the sheep by name

Now, now, Pace, that may need some explanation.......


couldn't resist.....

[Pace]

172

Not into sheep other than eating them but there are plenty who are up around there.

Where do you think the term shaggy sheep comes from

Pace

[IO540]

UK PPL instructors tend to know the sheep down below by their first names - that's why they rarely venture past the nearest crease on their maps

[Gertrude the Wombat]

took ... and the local mountain rescue chaps all next weekend to trek it down in bits

That must have cost more than a few pints!!

[sternone]

Quick update on the topic : The FAA is NOT going to further investigate this matter.

I have information that I cannot release that this video might not be completely what everybody think it is.