Warnings to wannabee pilots in the Aviation Mags
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Warnings to wannabee pilots in the Aviation Mags
Another thread currently running demonstrates, yet again, that anyone learning to fly, should never hand over cash in advance to pay for their training, no matter how lucrative the offer may be, unless they pay by credit card or use a regulated bank loan.
In this particular instance, the sums of money lost by decent and honest people to smooth talking crooks and charletons is relatively low, but more often than that, it is in the thousands.
It happens every year, several times a year and, to be frank it makes the flying training industry look like a bunch of complete and utter amateurs, unable to regulate themselves and difficult to trust.
I don't know if its a legal requirement for the magazine to say so, but all UK based magazines, from the basic up to Flight International always carry a warning in any recruitment page that it is illegal for any agency in the UK to ask for fees up front.
So my question is this;
Why don't all the UK based magazines publish a warning at the top of each page in which any flying training organisation advertises, that customers should never pay up front for block fees unless it is by credit card or regulated bank loan.
I am sure that they could come up with a more appropriate form of words, but if it was a mandatory agreement between themselves, they'd have nothing to worry about regarding loss of advertising revenue and the flying training industry maintaining some credibility.
I know that this forum is read by many of those Editors, so I'd be interested in your responses amongst many others.
In this particular instance, the sums of money lost by decent and honest people to smooth talking crooks and charletons is relatively low, but more often than that, it is in the thousands.
It happens every year, several times a year and, to be frank it makes the flying training industry look like a bunch of complete and utter amateurs, unable to regulate themselves and difficult to trust.
I don't know if its a legal requirement for the magazine to say so, but all UK based magazines, from the basic up to Flight International always carry a warning in any recruitment page that it is illegal for any agency in the UK to ask for fees up front.
So my question is this;
Why don't all the UK based magazines publish a warning at the top of each page in which any flying training organisation advertises, that customers should never pay up front for block fees unless it is by credit card or regulated bank loan.
I am sure that they could come up with a more appropriate form of words, but if it was a mandatory agreement between themselves, they'd have nothing to worry about regarding loss of advertising revenue and the flying training industry maintaining some credibility.
I know that this forum is read by many of those Editors, so I'd be interested in your responses amongst many others.
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People should certainly be aware that there are charlatans out there.
However, there are also quite a few non-charlatans and reputable, long-lasting flying schools (the one for whom I instruct, for example
) who offer a discount on fees paid in advance.
Admittedly, it is difficult for a newbie with no experience to decide on first sight whether he's talking to a shyster or a repuatable school owner, but should he NEVER pay a lump sum in advance?
However, there are also quite a few non-charlatans and reputable, long-lasting flying schools (the one for whom I instruct, for example
) who offer a discount on fees paid in advance.Admittedly, it is difficult for a newbie with no experience to decide on first sight whether he's talking to a shyster or a repuatable school owner, but should he NEVER pay a lump sum in advance?
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I for one would not be in favour of such a move.
We currently have too many examples of where the honest, decent majority suffer due to the actions of the dishonest minority. Why should the decent schools be penalised in such a way?
If I had a flying school I would take exception to any magazine inferring I was untrustworthy. In my view any such action would be another example of the nanny state.
It's a big bad world out there and we all need to learn to take responsibility for our own decisions and actions. Why should GA be singled out? Do you think those learning to fly are less capable and need looking after?
We currently have too many examples of where the honest, decent majority suffer due to the actions of the dishonest minority. Why should the decent schools be penalised in such a way?
If I had a flying school I would take exception to any magazine inferring I was untrustworthy. In my view any such action would be another example of the nanny state.
It's a big bad world out there and we all need to learn to take responsibility for our own decisions and actions. Why should GA be singled out? Do you think those learning to fly are less capable and need looking after?
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Its hard to identify such corruption and unless you have recommendations from reliable sources this will always be a problem, not just in aviation and in flight schools but elsewhere also I would imagine. You wouldn't ordinarily hand over hundreds (even thousands) of pounds to any organisation without doing your homework beforehand so flying should be no different. I think that overall, common sense should prevail.
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It's a big bad world out there and we all need to learn to take responsibility for our own decisions and actions.
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Hi, as a hirer I belong to Cubair Redhill and Cabair Biggin who both offer 5-8% discount for money lodged up front. I'm happy to put up £1000-£2000 with these two schools for cheaper flying when bank interest rates are woeful. Rgds, Neil
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To be honest, even though I've lost a little bit of money in the recent liquidisation of the Sheffield City Flying School; I would still consider paying for block hours up-front in the future. Its wouldn't be a definate action, but its something that I would consider based on the flying school/club.
In the end, it is cheaper to fly when one pays in block hours due to the discounts applied, and like all gambling you have to accept that you might lose. The only real question to be answered is whether the discount is worth the risk involved, and whether you can afford to lose the amount that you 'invest'.
In the end, it is cheaper to fly when one pays in block hours due to the discounts applied, and like all gambling you have to accept that you might lose. The only real question to be answered is whether the discount is worth the risk involved, and whether you can afford to lose the amount that you 'invest'.
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Hi, as a hirer I belong to Cubair Redhill and Cabair Biggin who both offer 5-8% discount for money lodged up front. I'm happy to put up £1000-£2000 with these two schools for cheaper flying when bank interest rates are woeful.
Answer: they wouldn't, they'd borrow from the bank.
Blindingly obvious deduction: the bank won't lend them the money at all, or thinks they're such a bad risk that they have to charge them an even higher interest rate than that.
So, you're better at judging risk than the bank, are you? Or maybe you just paid by credit card
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...or if they have £2000 of yours then they know you plan to fly £2000 worth of flights with them and it is a way of keeping punters / forecasting financials.
Difficult one really, I was bitten when the original Old Sarum collapsed but I only lost about £100. I'd have been gutted to lose £1000+ though.
Difficult one really, I was bitten when the original Old Sarum collapsed but I only lost about £100. I'd have been gutted to lose £1000+ though.
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...or if they have £2000 of yours then they know you plan to fly £2000 worth of flights with them and it is a way of keeping punters / forecasting financials.
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Babybear - I'm staggered.
On the 'stunt' thread you are all for everyone intervening and ensuring
PPLs are flying legally - because perhaps once every 2 to 3 years someone screws up.
And yet every year several flying clubs go belly up - always taking peoples money with them. But "it's a bad bad world and we should all take responsbility?" And it is not fair to suggest flying clubs might not be reliable or honest - inspite of their being a significant body of evidence that a large number are not!
Interesting change of tack.................
On the 'stunt' thread you are all for everyone intervening and ensuring
PPLs are flying legally - because perhaps once every 2 to 3 years someone screws up.
And yet every year several flying clubs go belly up - always taking peoples money with them. But "it's a bad bad world and we should all take responsbility?" And it is not fair to suggest flying clubs might not be reliable or honest - inspite of their being a significant body of evidence that a large number are not!
Interesting change of tack.................
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Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat
Why would anyone pay you 5-8% to borrow your money when they could get it from the bank cheaper?
gasax, not a change of tack at all.
I do believe we are in times where individuals look for every opportunity to shun personal responsibility, and frankly I am pig sick of it.
I also argue that part of this responsibility is to others. I would include taking the proper action where necessary, should we have knowledge of pilots who disregard the law to the extent of guy on the other thread. To ignore it is, in my book, irresponsible.
I think the pilot community get a bit over emotional when looking at the paying of training fees and tend to detach it from the reality that it is a commercial transaction, as any other. The suggestion that magazines should publish warnings is a step too far.
Last edited by BabyBear; 11th Oct 2009 at 18:46. Reason: To combine 2 posts
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Well baby!
There is a huge level of evidence that paying up front is a receipe for loosing your money if a 'flying club' is involved.
It is blindlinly obvious that payng 'upfro nt; has a proven level of risk of loosing that money.
Conversely there is vitually none that Stasi type informing stops accidents.
Do you run a flying club?
There is a huge level of evidence that paying up front is a receipe for loosing your money if a 'flying club' is involved.
It is blindlinly obvious that payng 'upfro nt; has a proven level of risk of loosing that money.
Conversely there is vitually none that Stasi type informing stops accidents.
Do you run a flying club?
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Originally Posted by gasax
There is a huge level of evidence that paying up front is a receipe for loosing your money if a 'flying club' is involved.
Originally Posted by gasax
It is blindlinly obvious that payng 'upfro nt; has a proven level of risk of loosing that money.
Originally Posted by gasax
Conversely there is vitually none that Stasi type informing stops accidents.
Originally Posted by gasax
Do you run a flying club?
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gasax, there are also many, many more people who have paid up front without losing (note the spelling) their money.
Yes, it's a risk. Caveat emptor, as they say. If people want to take that risk in exchange for lower-cost flying, why shouldn't they?
As for your snide and very silly comment about "Stasi" informants, if you saw someone you vaguely knew smashing a window of another house in your street, climbing in and then coming out with a TV, would you inform the police or not?
Yes, it's a risk. Caveat emptor, as they say. If people want to take that risk in exchange for lower-cost flying, why shouldn't they?
As for your snide and very silly comment about "Stasi" informants, if you saw someone you vaguely knew smashing a window of another house in your street, climbing in and then coming out with a TV, would you inform the police or not?
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The flying magazines - if they had any regard for their readers - would advise that paying 'up front' is a proven way of putting your money at risk.
The financial record of flying clubs is pretty terrible. The chances of the average flying club going 'bust' are similar to rolling a dice. Whilst there are a number of long lived and stable clubs, the majority are short lifed and financial marginal.
But magazines get much of their advertising revenue from clubs - so they are hardly likely to bite the hand that feeds.
Retailers that sell leather furniture are actually more reliable than flying clubs - which perhaps gives a little more perspective.
The critical point is that the vast majority of student ppls have not idea how unreliable these business' are. Why should they - they are licenced by the CAA, they apparently work within a highly regulated environment - except you have about a 15% chance of your discount flying evaporating.
It is strange that you bang on about personal responsibility and yet feel flying clubs should be exempt..........
The financial record of flying clubs is pretty terrible. The chances of the average flying club going 'bust' are similar to rolling a dice. Whilst there are a number of long lived and stable clubs, the majority are short lifed and financial marginal.
But magazines get much of their advertising revenue from clubs - so they are hardly likely to bite the hand that feeds.
Retailers that sell leather furniture are actually more reliable than flying clubs - which perhaps gives a little more perspective.
The critical point is that the vast majority of student ppls have not idea how unreliable these business' are. Why should they - they are licenced by the CAA, they apparently work within a highly regulated environment - except you have about a 15% chance of your discount flying evaporating.
It is strange that you bang on about personal responsibility and yet feel flying clubs should be exempt..........
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Originally Posted by gasax
It is strange that you bang on about personal responsibility and yet feel flying clubs should be exempt..........