Flying Airways in the UK?

[tom_ace]

I've done midlands to north scotland sometimes airways and sometimes IFR outside controlled airspace (mostly, just negotiated clearance when required), and to be honest it's a lot less painful to do the latter if you carefully choose the route. As the other posters have said, the icing issue does not suit a non pressurised aircraft at all for this route. I found it much better to stay low, below the freezing layer with not too much bitting and bobbing between airspace.


edited becuase I've had a beer

[scooter boy]

UK airways

I am in agreement that IFR OCAS is usually the most expedient way to do IFR in the UK.
My aircraft is deiced with a service ceiling of FL200. Not worth climbing anything like that high unless you intend to do a long trip.

Flying from Plymouth my usual airways joining point is BHD at FL90 - this is OK for south and North destinations, but there is no real east-west option at a reasonable altitude unless you want a detour over the Brecon Beacons (no fun in the winter).

After figuring the above out another wakeup call for me was being treated like persona non-grata by Solent radar (no surprise there) at night in IMC having filed an IFR flightplan from London back to Plymouth. I had no idea that they were not aware of my flightplan.
Basic message was "stay out of our airspace we are not interested in you. Freecall en route..."
How about a nice warm squawk to make me feel welcome, comfortable and safe guys?

SB

[IO540]

After figuring the above out another wakeup call for me was being treated like persona non-grata by Solent radar (no surprise there) at night in IMC having filed an IFR flightplan from London back to Plymouth. I had no idea that they were not aware of my flightplan.

Yeah; you discovered another UK airspace secret IFR flight plans filed below the magical "enroute airspace" go basically nowhere enroute, and no IFR clearance is maintained. A lot of people have been caught by that. Solent is just a bit of Class D around an airport or two. To get a continuous IFR clearance in the UK one needs to file for something like FL120 or higher, to be sure it will "stick".

[BEagle]

I think the main problem associated with flying in IMC outside CAS in the UK is, as been inferred above, the lack of reliable radar cover.

Perhaps one of the few areas of UK life not under constant surveillance from nuLabor's nanny state goons!

It is not illegal to fly IMC without any radar cover or even without talking to anyone - but it's perhaps rather foolish. Hence the attraction of lower level airways to those appropriately qualified flying suitably equipped aircraft.

[IO540]

It is not illegal to fly IMC without any radar cover or even without talking to anyone - but it's perhaps rather foolish.

It appears foolish but the IMC midair stats (zero, zilch, none, nil, since WW2) do not support such a fear.

Hence the attraction of lower level airways to those appropriately qualified flying suitably equipped aircraft.

Sure, you need an IR etc. But it doesn't work too well in the UK, especially the south. The lowest levels at which one can get LTMA crossings are around FL100 plus. People who succeed in filing a Eurocontrol routing at FL070 or so (and it is possible) end up either vectored all over the place, or get dropped out of CAS at the first convenient (to ATC) opportunity.

Also if you fly at say FL070 you don't have to go very far away from London to find yourself in Class G, and then the service from London Control will most likely be terminated, your IFR clearance is in the bin, and you have to continue OCAS.

As many pilots have discovered, you can fily flight plans via Eurocontrol even lower e.g. FL050. These are meaningless and end up in meaningless flights - forced below CAS, probably from the start.

[mm_flynn]

Originally Posted by fuzzy6988

How does that compare with Victor airways in the US, which as far as I know, start at around 1200ft where you're given separation from other IFR flights by "Center"?

IFR OCAS works just fine in the UK ... BUT, it is based on a different operating assumption than the US.

American's believe airplanes will hit each other or the ground if they don't follow routes (Victor airways) and receive a separation service. In the UK the volume of IFR OCAS traffic is low, the country is flat, and the routes are random. All of this means no aircraft in IMC has hit another (since one incident in WW II) even though separation is only provided on an adhoc basis. The CAA/NATS structure is geared to providing ATC in a limited set of Airways (defined for commercial traffic) and approach areas - and a very basic level of service OCAS. Once you accept Big Sky Separation works just as well as ATC for typical OCAS flights you will find the UK system actually seems to work pretty well.

[Pace]

Once you accept Big Sky Separation works just as well as ATC for typical OCAS flights you will find the UK system actually seems to work pretty well.

MM

I dont know whether you remember the long thread sparked by my near miss with a glider in IMC in a twin? It passed so close I saw it in the clouds

The fact is we all think that IMC OCAS is the world of small light GA. That airpace is also inhabited by commercial aircraft right up to A320 s and 737s.

All will be fine until the day the unthinkable happens then all change

I would certainly make it obligatory to have a transponder with altitude reporting to be legally allowed to cloud fly

Pace

[mm_flynn]

Yes I saw the thread. If the rules were being written today, everyone would have 'ADSB' and for most en-route airspace pilots would self separate with ATC coordinating traffic in busy areas.

The core fact for FAA trained pilots to understand is the FAA infrastructure doesn't exist here - you either live with it or don't fly in IMC OCAS (as you can't count on a Radar Deconfliction Service).

In the US an operation of this sort would have your ticket pulled due to reckless endangerment (i.e. the regulatory belief you will hit someone or something if you fly blind with no separation/coordination). The CAA clearly have had a view for years this is a reasonably safe activity (and for what ever reason, the accident rate (of 0) doesn't refute this view). I do recognise this may simply be due to very few people operating IMC OCAS with no service (like the Concord - a very small fleet so 0 fatals until the day there was one, at which point it moved from the safest (0 fatal accidents/1000 flights) to the worst safety stats of any modern airliner).

[IO540]

this sounds impractical for a small Cessna 152 to make a short direct journey from one aerodrome to another whilst in IMC where typical flying altitude is somewhere between 1500-6000ft.

You would fly a C152 in Class G, generally.

What are people's experiences of flying in IFR in IMC in Class G airspace in the UK?

It's done all the time. I did nearly an hour's worth this morning No midairs in IMC in the UK, since WW2. In VMC, about 1 a year.

Is the LARS Deconfliction Service reliable/good, and how well do they provide separation?

It's OK when the weather is bad, but then almost nobody is flying. When the wx is good, they often don't provide a radar service; just a Basic Service "due to controller workload" (which is useless; you may as well be flying with a listening watch).

How does that compare with Victor airways in the US, which as far as I know, start at around 1200ft where you're given separation from other IFR flights by "Center"?

Play with the Eurocontrol routing tool (see other airways thread). I think IFR is pretty similar but in Europe one cannot generally go as low as in the USA. I think the US airways have their MEAs based on the higher of a) terrain i.e. MOCA and b) MRA, whereas most European airways have high bases seemingly unrelated to obstacles or navaid reception.

Based on the above, is it worth asking CAA/NATS to provide more direct, lower level Class E airways, which open up in non-icing conditions?

You could ask them but pigs will fly 100 years sooner Here, ATC is privatised and nearly all of of GA pays no route charges, so they do the minimum legally required of them.

Yes it would be great to have the US-type (or French-type) Class E system...

But just departing VFR and drilling a long hole in the Class G clouds works fine. The sky is a very big place, and almost nobody in the UK flies in clouds. Also, most UK pilot forum readers think they get a nosebleed above 2000ft

[englishal]

American's believe airplanes will hit each other or the ground if they don't follow routes (Victor airways) and receive a separation service.

Victor Airways are just "advisory routes" really. A VFR pilot can bash around them, through them, in them whenever they like too.

If you file a V aw then as long as you are at the MEA then you will guarantee navaid reception and terrain clearance. However there is nothing to stop you filing GPS DCT - I once was flying back to an airport in Socal which had some convoluted routing along airways so I just asked for a DCT routing via GPS at about 12000. As the aircraft equipment was /G meaning IFR approved GPS onboard then I got it. 300mn DCT.

The difference in the USA is that all IFR is controlled and therefore requires a clearance. I actually think this is a good thing.....

[12Watt Tim]

Contacttower

Sorry, but it appears that IO540 is massively exaggerating the difficulty of the issue.

What you want to do is perfectly normal, I have done it many times. Yes you will have to leave controlled airspace, but will then be allowed back into controlled airspace if that is needed. Flying around Europe in an unpressurised aircraft in the airways is not a problem in most cases. Very occasionally there are difficult areas, where the convenient airway is too high and controllers will not clear you to leave controlled airspace, but it is very rare.

As for basic service being useless, IO540 appears to be flying on a completely different planet to the rest of us. I have heard aircraft reports that put me in conflict (estimating same VOR, same time, same altitude) and was able to find further details and spot the aircraft. I have many times been given useful information by the London Info, and I know they keep some sort of eye on the radar. It is kind of a hint when I change heading to avoid a danger area, and they check what I am doing, and let me know it is not active!

The lowest levels at which one can get LTMA crossings are around FL100 plus

Sorry IO540, that's balls. Most of the LTMA is available from FL70 or FL80, avoiding the SIDs with FL60 limits. Never been asked to cross LTMA above FL100, although been offered better routing by going higher.

Cameltoe's experience of N864 is the same as mine, and flying up to Scotland during the week is much the same. Get a service from Warton, as there can be some military activity, and you get good warning to have a good look at the pointy aeroplanes.

If you want any specific advice CT from someone who has flown hundred of hours IFR all across Europe in unpressurised aircraft drop me a PM.

[IO540]

Victor Airways are just "advisory routes" really. A VFR pilot can bash around them, through them, in them whenever they like too.

That, presumably, is because the USA has Class E from 1200ft to 17999ft, and Class E is UNcontrolled for VFR

The USA balances this great VFR freedom with strict enforcement (to the extent that this is possible using witnesses, i.e. near departure/arrival airports) of illegal VFR in IMC, and a readily accessible IR. This probably means there is less "VFR in IMC" over there than here.

I think it's relevant to see the US system as a whole picture. It all comes together well. But we are never likely to get such a whole package over here.

IMHO the reason why the extensive French Class E (typ. FL065-FL115) which bears a lot of similarity to the US 1200ft-17999ft Class E, works in the relaxed way it does, despite the ability to file Eurocontrol IFR routes through it, is because very few French pilots fly as high as FL065. As far as I can tell, the vast bulk of French GA activity comprises of short local inter-club outings, done mostly at low level.

Sorry, but it appears that IO540 is massively exaggerating the difficulty of the issue.

I am always ready to be educated... feel free to contribute in the appropriate detail.

If you want any specific advice CT from someone who has flown hundred of hours IFR all across Europe in unpressurised aircraft drop me a PM.

Gosh we must have met but I don't recognise your nickname. Is it by any chance a duplicate of another one?

I don't fly a pressurised plane - couldn't afford one. But I'd like to know how you manage to find clouds which are consistently lower than the ones I find The good thing about IFR (with an IR) is that the only thing one is up against is the weather - not ATC - and altitude capability is the best way to deal with it. Sure one can hack one's way in IMC for hours, with decent de-icing etc and reasonably "robust" passengers.

[12Watt Tim]

Maybe I was just lucky!

Flying at FL90 or FL100 I spent more than 80% of my time in clear air. Most of the rest I was not suffering icing, maybe 5% of the time. This was commercial charter in an aircraft cleared for moderate icing, so I flew almost regardless of en-route weather and did not work excessively hard to avoid ice. If speed dropped much due to accumulation I never had a problem descending to FL60 or FL70, and usually found all icing cleared.

I do agree with you about flying IFR OUTCAS without radar cover. I have done it many times when no radar service was available. Usually cover is available in places and times that have any amount of traffic, so the statistics are not really surprising.

[IO540]

Flying at FL90 or FL100 I spent more than 80% of my time in clear air.

No doubt a conservative weather strategy (even more conservative than mine, which most pilots I know think is really conservative) would deliver VMC at FL070-100 every time. But you say you are not doing that.

If you are flying a deiced twin with radar (you don't say but if PT it would be something like that) and paid to fly (i.e. get the sack if you don't fly) then you will go anyway, and often you will find "VMC" at FL070 within a layered cloud whose tops may be FL140, but whereas you will be happy with that, and anyway have to be due to lack of oxygen for passengers, I will be working hard to stay above those tops because I am not de-iced and thus cannot afford to get snookered down below in solid IMC and collecting ice, whereas you can just do that.

I have no idea how often I am flying at say FL150, 2000ft above a solid overcast, while somebody could be flying below me at FL070 and be in VMC either between layers or below the cloud. But to me that is irrelevant because I cannot afford to get stuck down there, whereas you have no choice and I am sure that a lot of the time you will find some VMC down there. To me that is academic because to fly down there would be foolish as it would cut off my escape routes from icing.

When hacking around in Class G one can always try to descend to warmer air but on an airways flight this is an option only up to a point, before ATC gets ratty about it because one is going into some military area. One can declare a mayday or just firmly request a descent as it is obviously an emergency, and I had to do that recently (freezing rain, but in IMC and descending close to destination anyway) but one doesn't want to be hacking 500nm right across a chunk of Europe at 3000ft, with the VFR chart, wondering what obstacles are down there. So the only smart way is to be on top and stay there.

Icing is pretty statistical and I can well believe that one gets it substantially only say 10% of the time. The other day I went up in in about -8C and after some minutes collected about 5mm of mixed clear and rime. How much would I pick up after say 3 hours? I don't really want to be stuck in IMC finding out the answer. I want to be upstairs in sunshine, with 100nm vis, knowing there isn't any ice down there.

Also you don't say anything about what you fly. If you are doing 200kt TAS then you are getting an aerodynamic temp rise of 5-6 degC and that narrows the supercooled water temperature band by 1/3 to 1/2.

I think to argue that icing is rare is missing the point - for a non deiced pilot. Sure it is rare. I know a few pilots who say it is rare so why bother about it? But I could post pictures of heavily iced up wing leading edges taken by people who nearly got killed who banked on it being rare. There are many more who did get killed but there are no pics because the stuff melted before anybody got to it, or melted in the fire. That's the problem with writing a few lines attacking somebody's strategy, without posting any detail.

[Phil Space]

I think the barrier is there to prevent small,ill equipped aircraft with unskilled pilots getting in the way of the more professional well kitted aircraft.

I've just been flying here in Asia today on a 550 miles round trip where we flew at around Fl 22.(Pressurized Malibu Turboprop) Just a 2 hour jolly.

We descended on track/time from 15000 ft to have to hold for several minutes
because of poor track/timing by a C150.

Annoying to say the least when we could have parked and had a coffee while a
poorly managed ppl got his act together

[IO540]

I think the barrier is there to prevent small,ill equipped aircraft with unskilled pilots getting in the way of the more professional well kitted aircraft.

I've just been flying here in Asia today on a 550 miles round trip where we flew at around Fl 22.(Pressurized Malibu Turboprop) Just a 2 hour jolly.

We descended on track/time from 15000 ft to have to hold for several minutes
because of poor track/timing by a C150.

Annoying to say the least when we could have parked and had a coffee while a
poorly managed ppl got his act together

Could you post some detail, there? It doesn't read right to me. What "act" should he have got together? IFR traffic is normally under ATC control, etc. Also I am not aware of "barriers" "to prevent small,ill equipped aircraft with unskilled pilots getting in the way of the more professional well kitted aircraft." The weather considerations are different, of course. The regs and the pilot skills required to get an IR are just the same.

[englishal]

I think the barrier is there to prevent small,ill equipped aircraft with unskilled pilots getting in the way of the more professional well kitted aircraft.

I've just been flying here in Asia today on a 550 miles round trip where we flew at around Fl 22.(Pressurized Malibu Turboprop) Just a 2 hour jolly.

We descended on track/time from 15000 ft to have to hold for several minutes
because of poor track/timing by a C150.

Annoying to say the least when we could have parked and had a coffee while a
poorly managed ppl got his act together

Oh Skygod, we're not worthy.....

That is why I like the USA, everyone is equal in the eyes of the FAA and ATC - from a C150 in the "airways" to a funky Malibu Turboprop to a RJ with his climb restricted so he doesn't hit the C150...

Oh PS: My commander is going to have far better avionics in it that the last Continental 757 that I flew in from Houston to LA, which still had steam driven gauges in....

[12Watt Tim]

EnglishAl

You should see the kit on one of the aircraft I flew commercially in the airways. Best I had was a KNS80. Few self-respecting owners of an airways-equipped aircraft would get airborne that ill-equipped!

IO540

Radar? Radar? Oh, the luxury. OK, one of them had a Stormscope, but no functioning weather radar in any aircraft I flew in the airways. I have never had a problem descending to clear icing conditions, and it was always a commercial decision as ice was affecting speed more than the benefit I was getting from density altitude.

An aircraft with no de-icing kit is more vulnerable, but that just means a decision before departure and more caution after making a marginal decision. It does restrict options but only in terms of timing and having to be flexible. Most of the year it should not be a serious restriction.

[IO540]

I have never had a problem descending to clear icing conditions

You must know some new bit of physics.

Example: OAT on the ground: -2C. How will you descend to clear icing conditions? The only way to get rid of any ice picked up will be for it to sublimate, which takes an awfully long time.

What planes were you flying? Single or twin pilot?

Your routes would also be interesting. Which bit of the world?

Let's say you get a DCT BCN (Barcelona VOR) from 250nm away. How would use use a KNS80 to do that? (I can see ways but not easy). Or a DCT to some French VOR which doesn't have a co-located DME?

[Islander2]

12Watt Tim said:

I have never had a problem descending to clear icing conditions

Then we can only assume that you never flew in European winters or over mountainous terrain!

Sorry to say, but there is the potential here for you to dangerously mislead the inexperienced GA IFR pilot into believing that pre-flight icing decisions are unimportant.