Robin - urgh
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Thread drift...
To cut a long story short, the KFC225 autopilot can be fed only from two certified pitch/roll sources: the KI-256 hirozon, or the KVG350 remote gyro. The latter is a cool US$25k.
Aspen are talking about certifying a version of their popular thingy to emulate the KI-256, which will be a useful option.
Of course the advantage of a vacuum horizon is that it will always work even if everything else has stopped (assuming an engine / vac pump failure not coinciding with a total loss of all other systems, which is a reasonable assumption) so if one replaced the KI-256 with something else, and fitted an electric horizon, that electric horizon would need to be powered from its own alternator.
If one fits the Aspen, and loses one's electrics, one will lose all gyro instruments, which is not acceptable.
Technically 100% feasible and very easy but legally tricky. A stupid situation. On a homebuilt you would just stick in a little alternator screwed to the vac pump accessory drive and drive one of the £1500 electric horizons from that.
To cut a long story short, the KFC225 autopilot can be fed only from two certified pitch/roll sources: the KI-256 hirozon, or the KVG350 remote gyro. The latter is a cool US$25k.
Aspen are talking about certifying a version of their popular thingy to emulate the KI-256, which will be a useful option.
Of course the advantage of a vacuum horizon is that it will always work even if everything else has stopped (assuming an engine / vac pump failure not coinciding with a total loss of all other systems, which is a reasonable assumption) so if one replaced the KI-256 with something else, and fitted an electric horizon, that electric horizon would need to be powered from its own alternator.
If one fits the Aspen, and loses one's electrics, one will lose all gyro instruments, which is not acceptable.
Technically 100% feasible and very easy but legally tricky. A stupid situation. On a homebuilt you would just stick in a little alternator screwed to the vac pump accessory drive and drive one of the £1500 electric horizons from that.
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I have stuck with one alternator and added an extra battery, which is charged via the EFIS. If the alternator fails (very unlikely on a Rotax) then I have main aircraft power. When this drops below 6.5v the system auto switches to the backup. Total power drain for the full EFIS plus probes etc is 0.9A. Total backup power should give 2.5 – 3 hours. For a VFR only aircraft I deemed this ok.
Rod1
Rod1
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Echo Romeo
I have looked at the DR500 but it offers very little more than a standard DR400, I think that for cruise performance all that is needed is 160HP but for lifting loads from short strips 180HP is required at take off.
The best compromise that I can see would be a CS prop on a 180HP engine, 200HP is too much power for the airframe in the cruise and the engine costs about £4000 more to overhaul than the 180HP
IO-540
B & C build an alternator that will fit onto the vac pump pad, I think that they have also an STC to replace the vac system on the PA32 with electrical gyros.
Solid state electrical gyros (both AI & DI) with battery back up will soon be available from major American manufactures fully certified.
My ideas for a "Super Robin" are based round the availability of Robin airframes that are coming up for major overhaul (re-covering) and have 1970's instrument fits, I would intend to junk all the engine indicators and fit a modern American indication system that would have product support into the foreseeable future
I have looked at the DR500 but it offers very little more than a standard DR400, I think that for cruise performance all that is needed is 160HP but for lifting loads from short strips 180HP is required at take off.
The best compromise that I can see would be a CS prop on a 180HP engine, 200HP is too much power for the airframe in the cruise and the engine costs about £4000 more to overhaul than the 180HP
IO-540
B & C build an alternator that will fit onto the vac pump pad, I think that they have also an STC to replace the vac system on the PA32 with electrical gyros.
Solid state electrical gyros (both AI & DI) with battery back up will soon be available from major American manufactures fully certified.
My ideas for a "Super Robin" are based round the availability of Robin airframes that are coming up for major overhaul (re-covering) and have 1970's instrument fits, I would intend to junk all the engine indicators and fit a modern American indication system that would have product support into the foreseeable future
Thread Starter
Maybe not so bad after all...
Well, today I completed 4.6 hours in the DR400, 2 dual and the rest solo or with passengers. I guess it does kind of grow on you, by the end we were getting on pretty well together and the weird controls have a certain kind of charm, juggling the throttle, stick and pull-out brake on Biarritz's up-and-down taxiways. I continue to think that it's not very stable in roll, although it's true I'm comparing it to my TR182 which is extremely stable in roll, even in mod-sev turbulence. My wife (who isn't a pilot but is an experienced passenger) commented on this too, so it can't be *entirely* my imagination.
It's true that the view is excellent, up to the point where the wing gets in the way - generic problem with low-wing aircraft of course. It's also true that the low wing makes landing easier (imo) - just hold a landing attitude and wait for the wheels to start to turn.
When I did the DA40 transition, I soloed in about 1.5h (from memory) AND did the radio in French, whereas this time I gave up on French (everything worked perfectly in English anyway, the Biarritz tower and approach controllers are really a pleasure to work with). But the first session of dual didn't go very well partly because of a misunderstanding - the instructor had somehow got the message I was an experienced Robin pilot and was getting increasingly irritated by the fact that I evidently wasn't until he finally put two and two together and asked "how many Robin hours do you have?". Once we got that straightened out and did a bit of ground stuff before the second session, things went a lot better.
btw I strongly recommend the Aeroclub Basque at Biarritz as a nice place to fly from (as long as you don't mind the Robin of course! - though they do have a couple of Tecnams too). Nice people, nice atmosphere, only drawback (as everywhere in France) is that you have to pay around E250 for an annual subscription to do more than take a trial lesson. That adds quite a lot to the hourly rate if you only plan on flying a few hours on a holiday. But then nobody expects flying to be a cheap hobby anyway.
n5296s / f-gahr
It's true that the view is excellent, up to the point where the wing gets in the way - generic problem with low-wing aircraft of course. It's also true that the low wing makes landing easier (imo) - just hold a landing attitude and wait for the wheels to start to turn.
When I did the DA40 transition, I soloed in about 1.5h (from memory) AND did the radio in French, whereas this time I gave up on French (everything worked perfectly in English anyway, the Biarritz tower and approach controllers are really a pleasure to work with). But the first session of dual didn't go very well partly because of a misunderstanding - the instructor had somehow got the message I was an experienced Robin pilot and was getting increasingly irritated by the fact that I evidently wasn't until he finally put two and two together and asked "how many Robin hours do you have?". Once we got that straightened out and did a bit of ground stuff before the second session, things went a lot better.
btw I strongly recommend the Aeroclub Basque at Biarritz as a nice place to fly from (as long as you don't mind the Robin of course! - though they do have a couple of Tecnams too). Nice people, nice atmosphere, only drawback (as everywhere in France) is that you have to pay around E250 for an annual subscription to do more than take a trial lesson. That adds quite a lot to the hourly rate if you only plan on flying a few hours on a holiday. But then nobody expects flying to be a cheap hobby anyway.
n5296s / f-gahr
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Solid state electrical gyros (both AI & DI) with battery back up will soon be available from major American manufactures fully certified.
There are various issues in this department because for example if I fit the Aspen unit, I still need the B/King mech gyro for the KFC225 - or something like that. Very few if any avionics people genuinely understand this stuff, and while I have collected a vast quantity of installation manuals, I don't have to patience to read through them unless I need to know
Also the manuals for new equipment are tightly distributed. It's very possible to get into a "certification blind alley" from which the only way out is a load of £££.
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Power Attitude Trim
I had a two or three lessons over in France a couple of years ago in a 180hp DR-400. I had only had about 6 hours dual at the time. The instructor asked me to climb to x,000 feet, so remembering PAT, I immediately increased the throttle to full, and started to ease back on the stick.
No! I shouldn't have done that - he wanted attitude first, then immediately afterwards the full throttle. I got the impression he was worried about overspeeding the engine.
Robins have dual throttle controls coupled together, one at the left hand end of the panel and one in the middle. I think you are expected to fly it with right hand on stick and left hand on throttle. The Right Hand Seat has no choice of course, but instructor seemed amused by my flying left hand on stick and right hand on "co-pilot's" throttle.
This aircraft has just a single fuel tank, and the filler is on the vertical hull wall, so you can't verify the fuel level by looking in. You have to trust the gauge, and trust the previous person to correctly log the amount of fuel added and used if you want to fly with anything less than a full tank.
Overall a very nice aircraft indeed.
No! I shouldn't have done that - he wanted attitude first, then immediately afterwards the full throttle. I got the impression he was worried about overspeeding the engine.
Robins have dual throttle controls coupled together, one at the left hand end of the panel and one in the middle. I think you are expected to fly it with right hand on stick and left hand on throttle. The Right Hand Seat has no choice of course, but instructor seemed amused by my flying left hand on stick and right hand on "co-pilot's" throttle.
This aircraft has just a single fuel tank, and the filler is on the vertical hull wall, so you can't verify the fuel level by looking in. You have to trust the gauge, and trust the previous person to correctly log the amount of fuel added and used if you want to fly with anything less than a full tank.
Overall a very nice aircraft indeed.
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With regard to the fuel gauges, how accurate do people find that these are? The last ac I flew was the C152, the tanks on which could of course easily be dipped to check levels. I don't feel overly comfortable with the Robin because I can't physically check how much is there.
If I knew how reliable my fuel gauges are I'd feel much happier! I dont understand the point in fitting an innacurate gauge anyway - if it isn't accurate, why bother?
E
If I knew how reliable my fuel gauges are I'd feel much happier! I dont understand the point in fitting an innacurate gauge anyway - if it isn't accurate, why bother?
E
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Wing tanks are relatively wide but not very high. This means that if the aircraft is a few degrees off-level (on the ground) or not quite in balance (in the air), then this will lead to a relatively large level change at the point of the fuel level measurement probe. This makes them relatively inaccurate.
With a fuselage tank, you'll find that it is not as wide for its height, making fuel probes somewhat more accurate and less error prone due to being out of balance.
But it's never a good idea to hop in a strange aircraft and then fly it to the limits of its theoretical endurance straight away. Be conservative.
With a fuselage tank, you'll find that it is not as wide for its height, making fuel probes somewhat more accurate and less error prone due to being out of balance.
But it's never a good idea to hop in a strange aircraft and then fly it to the limits of its theoretical endurance straight away. Be conservative.
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My DR400 had three tanks, two in the wings giving just over an hour each, and one large one in the fuselage. The gage in the fuselage tank was very good, and the low level warning light was also spot on, but with 2 hours visually checked fuel in the wings it never caused me a concern. The fuel pressure waning light will allow you to run the rear tank to empty without the donkey missing. This also gives a known level to fill up from which allows a good check on the gauge.
Rod1
Rod1
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EFIS in Robins
For all keen Robin owners out there, Lees Avionics at Wycombe Air Park are just completing an EASA STC for installing the Garmin G500 EFIS into the DR300/400/500 series. The initial aircraft is an EcoFlyer diesel variant and will be the demonstrator for new aicraft sales on behalf of Finch who now manufacture the aircraft.
The STC covers both new factory installations and retrofits for existing aircraft. If all goes to plan, the STC should be completed by 22 April.
The STC covers both new factory installations and retrofits for existing aircraft. If all goes to plan, the STC should be completed by 22 April.
To add to a very old debate, I find our club Robin's to be absurdly easy to pull off great landings in, but uncomfortable to ride in; particularly for any back seat passengers who are taller than a small child. The stick is also annoying as it gets in the way of a kneeboard/map, and I can't mount my GPS on it.
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autopilots
There are certified S-Tec 30 and 55X systems for the Robin aircraft. The data is owned by CEAPR (TC holder) and it may not prove easy to buy a copy and the hardware kit. The demo aircraft for the G500 has a System 30 and we'll be including the G500 roll-steeering funcion. Power went on today!
The Garmin GFC700 is not a retro-fittable autopilot except as part of a retrofit G1000 system (KingAir only at present) - there is no dedicated autopilot computer as this function is within the GIA63s, and the control is by buttons on the G1000 MFD.
The Garmin GFC700 is not a retro-fittable autopilot except as part of a retrofit G1000 system (KingAir only at present) - there is no dedicated autopilot computer as this function is within the GIA63s, and the control is by buttons on the G1000 MFD.
Glad you seem to appreciate the Robin.
Did a bit in the late seventies in a DR400-160.
After only taildraggers, just couldn't believe how it lands itself....
Did a bit in the late seventies in a DR400-160.
After only taildraggers, just couldn't believe how it lands itself....
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Robin DR400
I finished my training on a 400/100. It was absolutely delightfull to fly.
The only thing which is odd is the centre pivotted joystick. Only other thing is being wood they must be hangared.
Wonderfull visibility.
The only thing which is odd is the centre pivotted joystick. Only other thing is being wood they must be hangared.
Wonderfull visibility.
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And when you want to experience the ultimate Robin... try an ATL "L" (with Limbach engine)
12.5 litres per hour, 75 knts cruise, helicopter visibility, ridiculously easy to fly.
12.5 litres per hour, 75 knts cruise, helicopter visibility, ridiculously easy to fly.
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Totally agree with you vee-tail-1 the ATL could have been the default club trainer in europe. But in a similar way to TVR cars they were trying to develop about a dozen models at once. They had the proven DR 400's, HR 100/*** series, HR 200/*** series and the R3000 series on the go at one time. All on a development budget that wouldn't pay for Piper or Cessna's spend on bog rolls.
Last edited by WaspJunior; 13th Apr 2011 at 22:53.
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Robin an industrial disaster.
At the moment the production rights to Robin aircraft are split between two companies who can't agree on who owns what.
Finch own the rights to make aircraft but the remnants of the old company hold the rights to make the parts, the result is one hell of a squble in the French courts that is doing no one any good.
Finch own the rights to make aircraft but the remnants of the old company hold the rights to make the parts, the result is one hell of a squble in the French courts that is doing no one any good.